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Thread: Reason for this mod.

  1. #1

    Default Reason for this mod.

    Great Conflicts is indeed a mod to behold, the models are outstanding. Just one question, what does it aim at? Is it supposed to be historically accurate? For example, there are crossbows in the game and i don't understand why they do more damage than bows. Gastrophetes was just a composite bow that you could load with your own body weight, instead of drawing it by hands. Since this is 9th-11th century mod, gastrophetes did no longer exist. When this mod takes place, only crossbows that are guaranteed to have existed were very weak, made for hunting. There were no gastrophetes and the spanning mechanisms that led to military crossbow usage were not yet invented. Even 13th century crossbows made for war had spanning belts and later goat's foot level spanned crossbows were not more powerful than warbows. I know that game has to be fun and that removing crossbows because of historical accuracy would make people angry, but why they do two times more damage than composite bows?

  2. #2
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrekasantrasis View Post
    Great Conflicts is indeed a mod to behold, the models are outstanding. Just one question, what does it aim at? Is it supposed to be historically accurate? For example, there are crossbows in the game and i don't understand why they do more damage than bows. Gastrophetes was just a composite bow that you could load with your own body weight, instead of drawing it by hands. Since this is 9th-11th century mod, gastrophetes did no longer exist. When this mod takes place, only crossbows that are guaranteed to have existed were very weak, made for hunting. There were no gastrophetes and the spanning mechanisms that led to military crossbow usage were not yet invented. Even 13th century crossbows made for war had spanning belts and later goat's foot level spanned crossbows were not more powerful than warbows. I know that game has to be fun and that removing crossbows because of historical accuracy would make people angry, but why they do two times more damage than composite bows?
    Let me answer your questions.
    Crossbows had indeed more penetration and range than an average bow.
    Combosite bows had more penetration and range. I guess you never encountered in battle Pechenegs to put your army under their voleys.
    Yes TGC aims to become a playable educational tool. We know we are not perfect but we try for 14 years to make what others think is not nessesary to do.
    There are 5 types of arrows in TGC besiides bolts.
    You are wrong about crossbow penetration abillities. The weapon was so succesfull and easy to make that entire armies equpted with them. Ofcourse longbows (only Lombards and Normans have them in game) and steppe composite bows had better penetration but required a lot of training.
    Finally the units stats are not the final because we are still adding units.
    I did not see any complain why peasants with axes "kill" easily General Bodyguards though.
    Use you mind to find the answer to this pazzle.
    Question: Where did you see gastrafetes in our units? Romans do not use crossbows only Germans, Muslims and Italian millitias that coppied them from Muslims.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    "Crossbows had indeed more penetration and range than an average bow"
    "You are wrong about crossbow penetration abillities. The weapon was so succesfull and easy to make that entire armies equpted with them"
    - How is it that i am wrong? Crossbows not only were weaker than bows in the time period the mod is set in. Historically, crossbows were not used in military in this period, because they they had less power. Crossbows were more powerful than bows, when certain spanning mechanisms were invented. Tod Cutler, an enthusiast and crossbow maker, has tested 95 pound longbow compared to 860 pounds windlass crossbow. Crossbow has shot out two times heavier projectile slightly faster than 95 pound longbow and has delivered x2.5 more power. This means that if this mod was set in 15th century, a windlass crossbow would do about two times more damage than a warbow, but this mod is set in 9th to 11th century. Windlass crossbow has mechanical advantage of multiplying your strength by 160 times, making spanning such heavy crossbow possible. Now if we look at earlier crossbows, goat's foot lever spanning mechanism would give you power advantage of about 30 times more, compared to windlass 160 times. Goat's foot crossbow would be more than two times less powerful than a windlass. Since crossbows have a lot of draw weight and not a lot of draw length, this would result in goat's lever crossbow being just a tiny bit powerful than a 95 pound warbow and there were far more powerful longbows than that. Now imagine when this mod is set in, crossbows are spanned by hand, are very simple weapons. Bows at this time had more power, range and penetration, because they had more draw weight AND more power.

    I am ok with peasants with axes killing general bodyguards. I am just wondering if this is supposed to be historically accurate, because in terms of things like crossbows, reality is a bit different and crossbows were much weaker than bows at the time its set. If i wanted to change the balance, i would start removing that mechanic where unit changes weapon during charge. For example, Kievan kagan axemen druzhina switches from their swords and shields to axes during charge and this messes up the whole animation. Its not fluent, does not look good and makes unit less responsive.

    Just for the final note, i did not see gastrophetes in your units, i just gave an example of how early crossbows weren't powerful than bows, they were made for aiming and sacrificed speed over easier loading, requiring less energy from the user, meaning that high draw weights can be achieved by weaker people.

  4. #4
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    did you ever shot a 95 pounds longbow?
    i, for myself, use a hungarian horsearcher composite bow with 40 pounds maximum. for normal practice, iuse 20 or 30 pounds. you need years of training to hold and aim with 40 pounds and be a marksman to sucessfully use a 95 pounds longbow in a combat situation.
    if i compare this with a crossbow. a untrained peasant could use this weapon with similar effects, but without the need of years of training.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    It all depends. 40 pounds is not weak for a bow, but people can shoot higher poundage draw weight bows right from the start. I know this is not a good analogy, but a Youtube guy, Shadiversity, started shooting with 70 pound longbow without years of experience and he has average in terms of physical capabilities. Who cares, anyways, the discussion was not about how i can shoot a 95 pound longbow.

    "if i compare this with a crossbow. a untrained peasant could use this weapon with similar effects, but without the need of years of training."
    - Like i said, this mod takes place in 9th-11th centuries. Back then, crossbows were spanned by hand. Do you understand this, right? It means that if you can span a crossbow by hand, you can also probably shoot a bow of similar draw weight. Not only they were not powerful, they would fire same projectiles nowhere near as fast as your 40 pound composite bow. This is why not even untrained peasants did not use crossbows, because crossbows had no advantage compared to bows at that time, only that they need to be spanned only when reloading, not like bows needed to be drawn in order to shoot.

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    I think @shrekasantrasis argument is not about the relative power of crossbow / bow, but about the historicity of the crossbow as equipment of the troops in the TGC period (9-11 centuries).
    I'm quite interested in the subject as this is also a question in the SSHIP: when and where and with which stats crossbow units are historical. My knowledge was that only in 12 centuries there'd be first units equipped with crossbows, and perhaps only urban-levied units, mainly to defend the cities (the crossbow was intimately related to the process of urbanization, for many reasons). In this sense I share the opinions of @shrakasantrasis. My current knowledge is that before 12th century the crossbows would be used for hunting, not for warfare.
    There's a tremendous technological progress especially in the 13c., and only in 15c. the steel-crossbows were in use, and these were indeed more powerful than bows.

    On a side note: the title of the thread is misleading. The mod provides indeed tremendous historical experience (and I hope for more) and the issue of the crossbow doesn't impact on it "reasoness".

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Yeah, i was just asking what this mod aims at. That crossbow theme was just an example of why i find certain aspects of this mod not historically accurate. I understand that its hard to develop mods, but it was just an oversight. There are things like western factions using mail barding for their horses, which is, again, anachronistic. I find it hard to believe franks or lombards riding on armored horses then, but it sure looks so god damn cool, i don't see issue with it.

  8. #8
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    we know there´s no typical medieval mechanism used for crossbows in TGC timeframe. indeed this task stand on a list for years to change vanilla me2tw animation and sounds in the correct way.
    crossbows where spanned by weight and hand. to hold the energy early crossbows did had mechanics to hold and release high amounts of energy. simplest way is to use a dummystick, put it into the ground and use your weight until you reach the hold. warfare produced the best weapons and techniques available at any time. this simple method was available and used at TGC timeframe.

    the observations above (urban cities a.s.o.) lead to the ban of crossbows as unknightly weapon in the second lateran council 1139 - same as archery at a point. the roman church forbit the use of crossbows, slings and bows against follow christians. that´s the reason you see this weapon in muslim areas more and in central european urban areas first and then slowly adopted by the suffering side due to it´s effectivness and against the unknightly stigma in warfare.

    to load the crossbow, it´s also important to use of weight up and down not by lengh like a bow. this made the process easier and was used as early as with the gastraphetes catapult in the 7th century. a bow can´t save the energy, which makes aiming more difficult.

    crossbows shoots where used in mass, marksmenship could use in both ways, en mass or indiviual sniping.
    there where many battles in england, where soldiers of the defeated side where butchered after the battle. most of them where archer and because of yearlong archerytraining you found typical deformation of bones and muscles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSTvLAhLpgQ

    Quote Originally Posted by shrekasantrasis View Post
    Yeah, i was just asking what this mod aims at. That crossbow theme was just an example of why i find certain aspects of this mod not historically accurate. I understand that its hard to develop mods, but it was just an oversight. There are things like western factions using mail barding for their horses, which is, again, anachronistic. I find it hard to believe franks or lombards riding on armored horses then, but it sure looks so god damn cool, i don't see issue with it.
    mhh, did you even check the lombard and frankish empire cavalry?
    here are two screens to help you find the armoured horses:
    frankish empire


    lombards


    can you name the unit that uses armoured horses? i didn´t found any in both

    btw, if you don´t have TGC installed, there are previews for both factions
    here: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ombard-Duchies
    and here: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...cia-Orientalis (FliegerAD is a reknown expert)
    Last edited by _Tartaros_; October 26, 2020 at 03:48 AM. Reason: adding armoured horses for lombards and franks
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    "But I don't know how to mod!!!!"
    Learn. I didn't know how to do anything when I got this game, and now I know how to do quite a bit. Volunteer. Struggle. Figure it out.
    There are lots of cool mods that never see the light of day because people don't realize that mods need workers, not watchers, or realize it but continue to watch anyway.

    The Great Conflicts
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    public alpha 15.01.2020 patch 004 05.09.2020
    The Great Preview 01.12.2019 + Special 06.12.2019

  9. #9

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Like i mentioned, gastrophetes was not longer in use when the mod takes place. Second lateran council banned all missile weapons against fellow christians, because those were the killers and battles were mostly won by routs, not killing entire army. This is why ranged weapons were seen as inhumane by the church, but nobody listened to this ban. I don't know why you wrote it here, because it, again, did not happen during the period of when mod takes place. Why didn't you mention that jousting was also banned in your comment? Would that mean that knighthood and shock cavalry in general was viewed by church as dishonorable? Still, nobody cared about the ranged weapon or jousting ban. People kept using crossbows, bows and slings and people kept jousting. I have yet to see muslim crossbow history though. I know they used bows, it was their iconic weapon. But crossbows?

    My bad about the barding. It must have been some different faction than Franks. Maybe Lombards, i don't remember. Sorry for making such factual mistake.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Nope. Did not found mail barding on those factions. Lets just say i was wrong here, western factions don't have armored horses in this mod. No need to be so condescending and mock me for being wrong here. Lets keep it civil, i didn't mock you when you wrote that gastrophetes was used in 7th century, when it was clearly not. We all make mistakes sometimes.

  11. #11
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrekasantrasis View Post
    Like i mentioned, gastrophetes was not longer in use when the mod takes place. Second lateran council banned all missile weapons against fellow christians, because those were the killers and battles were mostly won by routs, not killing entire army. This is why ranged weapons were seen as inhumane by the church, but nobody listened to this ban. I don't know why you wrote it here, because it, again, did not happen during the period of when mod takes place. Why didn't you mention that jousting was also banned in your comment? Would that mean that knighthood and shock cavalry in general was viewed by church as dishonorable? Still, nobody cared about the ranged weapon or jousting ban. People kept using crossbows, bows and slings and people kept jousting. I have yet to see muslim crossbow history though. I know they used bows, it was their iconic weapon. But crossbows?
    Additional comments:
    - the technological breakthrough innovations are usually banned when they start to be in the use, not when they're widespread. Witness the Red Flag Act in 19c Britain effectively banning the cars. These were the first days of the cars. IMO, a similar mechanisms can be seen concerning crossbows: they began to appear at the beginning of 12th century, some people were horrified, and the pope banned it (as rightly mentioned: with no effects within the Christian world).
    - I've got same impression with the Muslims: I haven't read them using crossbows extensively, and if yes, this was rather copying the Latins, not before them.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    I don't necessarily think that people were horrified of crossbows. The idea behind that church ban was to prevent necessary loss of life between fighting christians. Crossbows, bows and slings killed people without them even noticing what's coming. In malee combat, people could have always fled, but you can't flee from a random rock or arrow hitting you in the face. Same with jousting. Later jousting was kind of safe, plate armor and special lances designed for it kept its practitioners relatively safe. In 12th century, it was a different idea. Knights jousted with mail armor and real lances. That sounds like insanely extreme sport as one of the combatants is almost guaranteed to die. Same with all the knightly tournaments back then, real or dull weapons were used, which did not prevent blunt trauma injuries due to armor being not made to protect against it. Lets look at this ranged weapon and tournament ban like a modern health and safety laws. Its just that tournaments were fun, so people kept participating in them and ranged weapons were too good to not be used.

  13. #13
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrekasantrasis View Post
    I don't necessarily think that people were horrified of crossbows. The idea behind that church ban was to prevent necessary loss of life between fighting christians. Crossbows, bows and slings killed people without them even noticing what's coming. In malee combat, people could have always fled, but you can't flee from a random rock or arrow hitting you in the face. Same with jousting. Later jousting was kind of safe, plate armor and special lances designed for it kept its practitioners relatively safe. In 12th century, it was a different idea. Knights jousted with mail armor and real lances. That sounds like insanely extreme sport as one of the combatants is almost guaranteed to die. Same with all the knightly tournaments back then, real or dull weapons were used, which did not prevent blunt trauma injuries due to armor being not made to protect against it. Lets look at this ranged weapon and tournament ban like a modern health and safety laws. Its just that tournaments were fun, so people kept participating in them and ranged weapons were too good to not be used.
    I think the ban on both crossbows and the tourneys was a Luddite reaction the developments in technology / culture. New technology threatens our old ways of living - let's put an ban!
    The tourneys were very recent phenomenon in that world (I think the first recorded was in 2nd part of 11c., and in most of Europe it was unknown for long time after. In Poland (the backwater of the Christina world, admittedelly) the first tournament was in 1243.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Yeah that is also believable, since Catholics were controlling Europe back then and they weren't exactly very open to new ideas like they want us to believe now.

    Interesting how Poland was one of the last additions to Catholic world, yet remained stoic about it, defended Europe from dangers, while traitorous nations like Sweden went on rampages, pillaging it for their own gain.

  15. #15
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    You must separate statements from reality.
    Knights were suposed to be defenders of the poor but they were savages and cruel with peasants.
    Pope may banned bows of all kinds but that did not prevent western armies to use them extensively espesialy when their neiburgs (Romans, Arabs, Steppe tribes, Slavs , Magyars ) used them is huge numbers.
    In TGC Rus have only one archer unit.
    Lombards and Venice have two.
    Only HRE have more than two.
    Roman levy archers have weak bows with small range but their ellite units use steppe bows !
    Bulgarians are in between.
    Arabs used bows and crossbows because they were usefull for ship crews since they had no catapults or balistas on their ships.
    Italians forced to re-adopt crossbowinorder to defend their cities from arab raids from Sicely . Crossbow was the weapon of choice because it needed no exersise at all. Romans (Byzantines) still use crossbows named Tzagras and from such a cross bow Lionheart almost die from a shot came from a Roman userper and gave him the excuse to conquer Cyprus!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    At this point i have no wish to repeat myself. My original point stands. Crossbows in this mod are too powerful and their presence is not realistic. In real life, we only got crossbows mentioned in 2 french sieges in 10th century. There is a mention of it in battle of Hastings although they are not shown in Bayeux tapestry. Earliest crossbow found is from 11th century and it is much weaker than bows made for war at that time. You can go on how italians and arabs used crossbows even though crossbow is mentioned much later in Italy. You say that arabs used crossbows at this time, when they mention crossbows only in 14th century. That statement is apart from reality by about 300 years. What's next? Napoleon's army shot Russians with FAMAS?

  17. #17
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    the thing is, nobody knows this stuff for shure, as most wooden tools are rotted away long ago. and i don´t want to write about strawmen french famas fighting in russia analogy or the barded franks and lombards he firstly complains about. we have 3 crossbowunits out of more than 290 +units. there´s a 4th one for the holy roman empire evolve out of the frankish empire after 962. this are 4! crossbowunits: two islamic (chandax crossbowmen and saracen marines) + one italian mercenary and a later saxonian crossbowmen.

    we´ve got description of sieges as early as 947 (which is in the middle of TGC timeframe and befor the HRE event) with mentioning of crossbows https://www.wikiwand.com/en/History_...bows#/Medieval. saracen crossbows are hard to recruit and not available at the start, same with the italian crossbowmen, which need advanced smith to be build.
    anyway - this weapons don´t come out of knowwhere, most likely with the silkroad from china or where used indeed.

    if he don´t like this, he´s free to not play with them. as said above, we talk about 3 critical units, where nobody can prove anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    "But I don't know how to mod!!!!"
    Learn. I didn't know how to do anything when I got this game, and now I know how to do quite a bit. Volunteer. Struggle. Figure it out.
    There are lots of cool mods that never see the light of day because people don't realize that mods need workers, not watchers, or realize it but continue to watch anyway.

    The Great Conflicts
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    public alpha 15.01.2020 patch 004 05.09.2020
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  18. #18
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Reason for this mod.

    Just making sure that this part is clear, since it seems to have been missed by participants in this discussion:
    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Finally the units stats are not the final because we are still adding units.
    This is from the second post in this thread, i.e. the very first reply.

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