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Thread: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

  1. #81
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    ...
    “Single parent families however do not fit the right- wing government ideal of the family, so they are not supported.”
    ...
    The new, universal child-raising benefit of PLN 500 (EUR 114) monthly is granted for every second child under 18, and for the first child if the family income is below PLN 800 (EUR 182) per capita per month (PLN 1,200/EUR 273 in the case of child disability).

    Minimum wages in Poland were 610.79 EUR/Month in the first half of 2020.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/minimum-wages

    So a average single mom with one child, which earns 610.79 € per month will get no child benefit, as the limit for the first child is 182 € per capita (610.79 € : 2 heads (mom + child) = 305.395 €).

    So the law does exactly, what my linked article is claiming:

    single parents with only one child need to be means- tested in order to receive the benefit. That particularly hits single parents, as it is them who are likely to have only one child. One- third of all children in Poland are brought up in one parent families. Considering that the number of single mothers in the country is eleven times bigger than that of single fathers, the restriction on child benefit is particularly hitting the women who, one may think, deserve particular care from the state. Single parent families however do not fit the right- wing government ideal of the family, so they are not supported.
    Sorry, one more neocon lie exposed.
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  2. #82
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Minimum wages in Poland were 610.79 EUR/Month in the first half of 2020.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/minimum-wages

    So a average single mom with one child, which earns 610.79 € per month will get no child benefit, as the limit for the first child is 182 € per capita (610.79 € : 2 heads (mom + child) = 305.395 €).

    So the law does exactly, what my linked article is claiming:

    Sorry, one more neocon lie exposed.




    Again, your article’s claim that single parent families are not supported is objectively false, no matter how many times you try to gaslight people with such claims related to a barely topical subject you use as a deflection from your earlier false claims that were debunked. It doesn’t matter whether the first child is parented by a single parent or by a couple, the means testing applies to the first child, not to the number of parents. Also cited from the European Commission is the fact qualifications of other types of government assistance to which people may be entitled, as well as calculations of child support and alimony, are not penalized by receipt of the benefit. As quoted already:
    In principle, the child-raising benefit should not impact eligibility for other benefits that remain unchanged. Especially, the benefits should not be included in the income assessment establishing eligibility for permanent social assistance benefits. However, improvement of families’ well-being might impact eligibility for temporary social assistance benefits. According to the amendment to the law on child-raising benefit, receipt of benefits should not impact the level of alimony (especially not reducing this due to higher family incomes) and cannot be taken by a bailiff. To prevent the latter, the Ministry of Labour envisages payment of benefits to separate bank accounts.

  3. #83
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    No, they get no support, if they earn more than 182 € per person, which they do, if they earn minimum wage.
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  4. #84
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    No, they get no support, if they earn more than 182 € per person, which they do, if they earn minimum wage.
    Again, the means testing is for the first child, not the number of parents. Considering a healthy, happy, God-fearing, heterosexual couple with one child who goes to church weekly and waited until marriage to have sex which they only do for the purposes of pro-creation and never use contraception, 610/3=203.33>182. I guess the Polish government doesn’t support young devout Catholic couples either eh? You claimed and continue to claim the child benefit doesn’t support single parent families. That is false, no matter how many times you attempt to shift the goalposts with hypothetical scenarios that don’t even indicate what you claim anyway.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    ...

    That particularly hits single parents, as it is them who are likely to have only one child. One- third of all children in Poland are brought up in one parent families. Considering that the number of single mothers in the country is eleven times bigger than that of single fathers, the restriction on child benefit is particularly hitting the women who, one may think, deserve particular care from the state. Single parent families however do not fit the right- wing government ideal of the family, so they are not supported.

    ...
    Nothing than whataboutism.

    I have highlighted the relevant part for you, but i can make it even more simple:

    1/3 of all kids are in single parent families in Poland.

    11 of 12 of these parents are mums.

    Or 91,67 %.

    It hits mostly single mums. Point.

    And they are single mums because the child father has run his responsibility away or is no help in rising kids (too often drunken, no help in household or child rising).

    You lost.
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  6. #86

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Hooray, Poland promotes more back alley abortions, the continued alienation/emigration of its shrinking educated class and reaffirms its former reputation as an oppressive backwater.



    Democracy hasn't seen such a success since 1932.
    Except that the decision to ban abortions is democracy at work. 65% of Poles support it.
    Poland is a flourishing democracy, and AFAIK they don't have anti-free-speech laws like Germany does, which makes them, in fact, more democratic then Germany.

  7. #87
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Nothing than whataboutism.

    I have highlighted the relevant part for you, but i can make it even more simple:

    1/3 of all kids are in single parent families in Poland.

    11 of 12 of these parents are mums.

    Or 91,67 %.

    It hits mostly single mums. Point.

    And they are single mums because the child father has run his responsibility away or is no help in rising kids (too often drunken, no help in household or child rising).

    You lost.
    Facts directly refuting your claims are not whataboutism. None of the variables you’ve indicated here demonstrate your claim that single parent families are not supported by the child benefit. Even so, your red herring claims about single parenthood don’t seem to line up with reality either.

    According to the UN, 85% of households with children in Poland report having two parents present (higher than Germany). Households with 2-3 members account for the largest percentage overall, at 46%, with just 30% of households having the requisite 4 or more members that would represent the possibility of having 2 children and 2 parents. Households with children wherein a female was the lone head of household accounted for 10% of the 38% headed by females. I’ll let you do the arithmetic on that one (hint: move the decimal).

    Furthermore, just 30% of households report having children in the first place. Among those, the average number of children is 1.5. As was already indicated, a couple with one child earning the minimum wage wouldn’t qualify for the child benefit either according to the example you gave, so your claim that single parent families specifically aren’t supported, in addition to being false, is groundless and counterfactual even when considering outcomes alone.

    https://www.un.org/en/development/de...ta_booklet.pdf

    You’ve failed to establish not only your claim itself, but the very parameters used to make it. If anything, the trope of drunken absentee fathers abandoning destitute single mothers and their children reeks of the prejudice inherent to your claims, never mind matters of fact.

  8. #88
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Ok, lets take a look at the pdf, shall we?



    First of all the numbers of the UN statistic are from 2011, quite old. Mine are more actual, as from 2016.

    But even if you statistic would be still valid:

    If you multiply average child per household with mother household you got:

    1,5 * 15 = 22,5.

    This would mean nearly one quarter of childrens with single mom get no support from populist right-wing populist government.

    But the numbers are not valid because the UN footnotes are saying explicitly:



    Which meaning nothing else they include also parents wich are separated, but not divorced, which is still a sin in arch-catholic Poland.

    So you lost again.

    But what else is doing PiS for women except restricting Abortion?

    a) Violence against women:


    PiS is working on preparing the termination of the Council of Europe Convention on Preventing and Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Violence.

    The Convention was signed by Poland, amid great opposition from the right wing and the Catholic Church, in 2015. It introduced the concept of economic violence in Polish law. In addition, it requires, among other things, the fight against gender stereotypes as a source of violence and inequality – the document assumes that there is a connection between violence and unequal treatment and the justification of it in tradition and religion. According to the government, the bare mention of gender as a social concept goes against Christian tradition and religion, is against constitution, undermines father’s rights, and the legal definition of family and a woman.

    Considering that in 2015, Polish police recorded 97 501 victims of domestic violence, 69 376 of which were women; and that estimated 400 women each year lose their lives to domestic violence; the government move against the convention seems to be yet another attack against women’s rights.


    b) Emergency Conception


    Since July 2017, emergency contraception in Poland is available only with prescription. That makes Poland, along with Hungary, the only countries in the EU where prescription is requested for this type of contraception. The morning-after pill was described by one governmental official as “the death pill”, which goes in line with what the Catholic Church thinks on the issue.

    The government explains that the prescription requirement is essential to protect women’s safety, citing numerous side effects as a reason. Funnily enough, the same rules do not seem to apply to medicines against erectile dysfunction, which, available in Poland on request, have much more serious side effects, and in some cases can lead to death. It is women who, apparently, have to be controlled while making decisions regarding their health and sexual lives.


    c) Police Raids on Women’s Organizations

    The day after another women’s strike in October 2016, the police raided the offices of numerous women’s organizations across the country, mostly the ones working with survivors of domestic violence. Under the pretext of alleged financial fraud, the cops confiscated entire paperwork (including the sensitive data), and all computers.

    However, women’s organizations argue that the issue has a political context and is a repressive response to the protests. In practice, the confiscation of documents or computers means that the organizations’ activity is frozen until the police return their equipment. It is hard not to assume that was the main reason for the raid.


    d) Poor execution of child maintenance payments

    According to the National Debt Register from January 2017, one million children in Poland are not receiving maintenance payments. It’s almost 10% of persons below 25 years old. 96% of people failing to make child maintenance payments are fathers, and the problem is
    mainly affecting women who are falling under the obligation to support a family. Taking up paid work is most often associated with the loss of the ability to apply for benefits, whose thresholds in Poland are scandalously low.

    A woman with one child earning only a minimum wage (2000 zł a month) has no chance of obtaining a penny from the Government Child Maintenance Fund (the threshold is 725 PLN per person in the family). In addition, she will not qualify for child benefit.


    https://freedomnews.org.uk/polish-go...-war-on-women/



    Obviously the restriction of abortion is only another brick in the PiS wall against women's rights.

    But i guess that all don't matter because they have freedom of choice and the responsibility for children.

    Conservative men have the right to and to play the moralist card.
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  9. #89
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    First of all the numbers of the UN statistic are from 2011, quite old. Mine are more actual, as from 2016.
    You’ve presented no evidence to substantiate this claim that the data is invalid.
    But even if you statistic would be still valid:

    If you multiply average child per household with mother household you got:

    1,5 * 15 = 22,5.
    There is zero reason whatsoever to multiply the average number of children per household. An average of 1.5 children means 1.5 children. That’s not a percentage.
    But the numbers are not valid because the UN footnotes are saying explicitly:

    Which meaning nothing else they include also parents wich are separated, but not divorced, which is still a sin in arch-catholic Poland.


    So you lost again.
    At this point you’re rambling incoherently. Your chosen screenshot has nothing to do with the validity of the data, divorce, or sin. The potential for overlapping categories, if anything, further damages even the feasibility of your claims about single parenthood in Poland. As is par for the course at this point, you’re merely attempting to discredit facts that debunk your claims by lying about them.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Majority wants restriction of abortion!
    No, it doesn't.

    The Polish national-conservative ruling party PiS lost a massive amount of approval in polls after the Constitutional Court paved the way for tightening abortion law. According to a survey commissioned by the daily newspaper "Dziennik Gazeta Prawna" and the broadcaster "RMF FM" and published on Monday, PiS received 30.9 percent approval nationwide.

    Two weeks ago the value was 40.5 percent. A survey on behalf of the left-wing liberal "Gazeta Wyborcza" also came to the result that approval for PiS has slumped massively.

    In the current survey, the liberal-conservative citizen coalition (KO) improved its poll results by two percentage points to 25.3 percent. In addition, approval for the new center movement Poland 2050 rose from 9.3 percent to 14.7 percent. 1000 working Poles were interviewed in the telephone survey.

    In a further survey on behalf of the newspaper "Rzeczpospolita", 70 percent of those questioned were in favor of the resignation of PiS boss and Vice Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski. According to many experts and commentators, the ruling party's plan to tighten the already very restrictive abortion legislation can be traced back directly to Kaczynski.

    Source: Der Spiegel
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; November 02, 2020 at 02:47 PM.
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  11. #91
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Polling from a left wing paper in Poland shows widespread opposition to the court’s ruling, and also majority opposition to abortion on demand, consistent with other polling on abortion from Ipsos:
    An opinion poll conducted by the “Kantar” agency for daily “Gazeta Wyborcza” shows 54 percent of the sample supporting the protests and 43 percent against. But the same research found that only 22 percent of voters supported the central demand of the protesters; abortion on demand.
    The poll conducted on Monday and Tuesday showed majority support for the protests but not for abortion on demand. 62 percent of those polled were prepared to support abortion, but only under certain conditions such as lethal damage to the foetus, rape or the mother’s health and life being under threat. Only 11 percent of those polled supported a total ban on abortion.

    Constitutional court ruling unpopular

    The actual ruling of the constitutional court was opposed by 73 percent of those polled. Only 13 percent supported the ruling.

    https://polandin.com/50543978/poll-5...uling-protests

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Except that the decision to ban abortions is democracy at work. 65% of Poles support it.
    I'm a passive supporter of democracy. I've never been a zealot devotee of democracy, this whole fracas simply hammers home its flaws. The masses cannot be trusted.
    I wouldn't consult a mob on the issue of which toaster to buy, why would anyone think it appealing to consult them on an issue more important than which talent-show contestant has the more tragic backstory.

    Poland is a flourishing democracy, and AFAIK they don't have anti-free-speech laws like Germany does, which makes them, in fact, more democratic then Germany.
    I'm not sure why you're bringing up Germany in particular.
    I had the Irish elections of 1932, in my mind, that saw the rise of a known populist bigoted terrorist who plunged his nation into a dark age of religious fuelled violence, repression and fear. All to the sound of cheering crowds that echo to this day. I could have made reference to a dozen other random stillborn products that slid down the greasy thighs of democracy that year. I'm quite sure it has happened, is happening and will happen in other countries too.
    Something being democratic does not guarantee or even suggest anything positive will be its result.
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  13. #93

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    I'm a passive supporter of democracy. I've never been a zealot devotee of democracy, this whole fracas simply hammers home its flaws. The masses cannot be trusted.
    I wouldn't consult a mob on the issue of which toaster to buy, why would anyone think it appealing to consult them on an issue more important than which talent-show contestant has the more tragic backstory.
    Being passive supporter of democracy sound like pretending to like democracy until democratic outcome doesn't match with your own beliefs. Masses may not make good decision every time - but its better to leave it up to them, then allow policy creation to become independent of public interests.
    I'm not sure why you're bringing up Germany in particular.
    I had the Irish elections of 1932, in my mind, that saw the rise of a known populist bigoted terrorist who plunged his nation into a dark age of religious fuelled violence, repression and fear. All to the sound of cheering crowds that echo to this day. I could have made reference to a dozen other random stillborn products that slid down the greasy thighs of democracy that year. I'm quite sure it has happened, is happening and will happen in other countries too.
    Something being democratic does not guarantee or even suggest anything positive will be its result.
    Doesn't have to be positive, as long as its what the people want.
    Given how the context of those elections is, well, centuries of foreigners committing atrocities against Ireland's native population which only gained basic human rights and freedom from England within very recent past, I'd say that's not a good example. Democracy in general doesn't imply necessarily good decisions - the point is that public determines what is best for it. Many just don't realize that the alternative could be much worse - sadly its only Viseguard states that remain the true beacon of democracy in the West, given how they experienced "masses can't be trusted" rule over them quite extensively in the past century.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    If only there was a way for concerned boys to avoid having an abortion... Perhaps, one day, this dream will become a reality.
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  15. #95
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    If only there was a way for concerned abolitionists to avoid having a slave... Perhaps, one day, this dream will become a reality.
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  16. #96

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    If only there was a way for concerned gun control supporters to avoid shooting someone... Perhaps, one day, this dream will become a reality.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    If only there was a way for concerned gun control supporters to avoid shooting someone... Perhaps, one day, this dream will become a reality.
    Yeah, right now, they are forced to shoot people.
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  18. #98
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    I'm sure nobody in Poland would bother reading those facts presented here, same as happened in most other countries.

    Why is it not enough for the ones who have to bear all the pain to say no? It's not for us or the government to decide, unless you guys want to pay for all the childcare including time and money. I would not.

  19. #99
    intel's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Except that the decision to ban abortions is democracy at work. 65% of Poles support it.
    Poland is a flourishing democracy, and AFAIK they don't have anti-free-speech laws like Germany does, which makes them, in fact, more democratic then Germany.
    This!!!

    I have yet to happen upon any poll that shows majority support for abortion ban, and I live in Poland! The claim of Poland being a flourishing democracy (duh) is also largely, if not entirely, unsubstantiated.
    Last edited by Aexodus; November 16, 2020 at 04:30 PM. Reason: off topic, disruptive.


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