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Thread: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

  1. #41

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Source that Poland doesn't have "checks and balances"? Objectively there is, however, no compelling evidence that "checks and balances" you mentioned aren't there. Just people who are upset with outcome of democratic process for partisan reasons.
    Source on me saying that Poland doesn't have checks and balances?
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  2. #42
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not a Freuidian slip but a practical usage of language. Sex of the fetus is sex of the baby. It doesn't change mid pregnancy. Aborting, however, is a particular action that matters which word its tied as it indicates time.
    When you have to play with words to whitewash killing the unborn baby, it kinda alludes that you are in the wrong.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Source on me saying that Poland doesn't have checks and balances?
    If you are not saying that, then we both agree to my initial statement - that ban is an outcome of functioning democratic system and people protesting it are just unhappy with democratic choice of Polish people.

  4. #44
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Fetuses turn to babies. I consider a fetus that has developed organs and brain and can feel pain as an unborn baby, not a mindless constellation of cells similar to a finger.
    Babies turn into adults, adults turn into corpses, so obviously abortion is no big deal.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Its morally fraught debate, I would never get a abortion but that's a facaetious statement in a way as I don't have a uterus. There seems to be a majority view that abortion is immoral in Poland, but its interesting that it appears so may Polish women are getting abortions in Germany. Its like all those people in the US who said they wanted Hilary but actually voted Trump, we know what is expected we should say in a poll, but when push comes to shove....

    I am persuaded that abortion should be available to women with few restrictions for pragmatic reasons. I hate to think o0f unborn babies killed for convenience but the abortions will keep happening and as long as people keep making that choice we might as well make it safe. Its like recreational drugs, I disagree with most of them (love my alcohol though) but people will continue the behaviour and a government does better I think the provide for its citizens behaviour rather than create gaol pathways for typical behaviours as we see with the various prohibitions around the world.

    Its worth talking over though because the slippery slope of utilitarianism can get you to uncomfortable places like racial profiling or third trimester abortions.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    When you have to play with words to whitewash killing the unborn baby, it kinda alludes that you are in the wrong.
    Sticking to right terminology is not playing with words. It's pathetic to twist it like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    If you are not saying that, then we both agree to my initial statement - that ban is an outcome of functioning democratic system and people protesting it are just unhappy with democratic choice of Polish people.
    Not really, I don't have to agree with it as it banks on majority rule, not democracy with checks and balances. It's also not a bad thing to criticize totally legal decisions.
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  7. #47
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sticking to right terminology is not playing with words. It's pathetic to twist it like that.
    Using the terminology to escape the issue at the heart of this decision is actually the twisting being done here. If you used the right terminology but acknowledged that you're effectively killing your unborn offspring I wouldn't have taken issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_mango55 View Post
    Babies turn into adults, adults turn into corpses, so obviously abortion is no big deal.
    Taking action to turn adults to corpses is a big deal though. It is called "killing" for those that want to use the proper terminology.


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    I want to ask you both this, because I don't understand it.
    What is the difference between killing the unborn baby - aborting the fetus in the right terminology - to euthanizing the baby a week after the kid has left the womb?
    Not what the difference is in legality or what the difference is in "terminology terms" but what is the actual difference for the parents?
    If you are going to abort a fetus at say 5 months in the womb, why not give the legal right to the parents to have the kid euthanized a week after birth? The baby is still completely unaware of the world, practically not sentient.
    I seriously cannot understand the difference and why the laws are different, or why abortion is accepted but euthanizing a week-old baby with serious, debilitating effects is appalling. As far as I know, it was the "standard practice" to leave the baby to die from exposure if he or she had defects.
    To me, aborting a baby that has formed its internal organs and can feel pain etc (so 3 or so months), is as appalling as euthanizing the kid. Logically, I consider them the same practice. (Emotion-wise it's different. I am probably too used to abortions to emotionally consider them the same, the same as I consider death penalty equal to state-sanctioned murder reasonably, but emotionally I find execution less distasteful than state-sanctioned assassination with poison etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    If you are not saying that, then we both agree to my initial statement - that ban is an outcome of functioning democratic system and people protesting it are just unhappy with democratic choice of Polish people.
    In a democracy, people are allowed to protest what they are unhappy with. You don't have to be in the majority in a democracy to voice your disagreements and protest. That's how you start shifting the popular opinion and the democracy is supposed to give you the tools to do that.
    One of those tools is non-violent protests.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 26, 2020 at 03:30 AM.
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Using the terminology to escape the issue at the heart of this decision is actually the twisting being done here. If you used the right terminology but acknowledged that you're effectively killing your unborn offspring I wouldn't have taken issue.
    You can appeal to hysteria like that all you want. No one is escaping the issue. You're just whining that you're called out on it. You're also effectively killing your babies by then.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    i have some good news for all anti-abortion people: if you don't want to have an abortion, you don't have to! Isn't that wonderful? And avoiding an abortion is even easier if you're a boy.
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  10. #50
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You can appeal to hysteria like that all you want. No one is escaping the issue. You're just whining that you're called out on it. You're also effectively killing your babies by then.
    I don't fertilize an egg and I put the time at "the fetus can feel pain and has organs". So nope, I am not killing babies.
    I also don't consider the next-day pill as killing a baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    i have some good news for all anti-abortion people: if you don't want to have an abortion, you don't have to! Isn't that wonderful? And avoiding an abortion is even easier if you're a boy.
    Yeah, but women may decide to abort our child without even discussing it with us, let alone asking about our opinion on the fate of our child.
    Also, it is like saying "if you don't want to kill your neighbor, you don't have to!". Indeed, you don't have to. In fact, if you do kill your neighbor you would go to prison. If you kill your unborn child you won't.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 26, 2020 at 07:55 AM.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I don't fertilize an egg and I put the time at "the fetus can feel pain and has organs". So nope, I am not killing babies.
    I also don't consider the next-day pill as killing a baby.
    All arbitrary distinctions within the context of killing unborn offspring.
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  12. #52

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    In fact, if you do kill your neighbor you would go to prison. If you kill your unborn child you won't.
    What is na "unborn child"? A fetus?
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  13. #53
    Vladyvid's Avatar Wizard of Turmish
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    You guys here are just new victims of this fringe subject. Nobody cares about abortions, really. Those who think they do, they dont really care either, they just like to argue. The current restriction affects only some 1000 cases per year, for 38mln people that like almost nothing, lets be real here. This is not a problem that affects anyone really. There are several things going on here, and the abortion topic is just a cover story in my opinion:

    1. people are tired of the current gov. and this is just as good excuse as any to riot against the hated government (not so long ago there were farmers protests against new laws against fur breeding )
    2. people are tired of the corona situation and this is just a perfect opportunity to let off some steam
    3. there are always the same 2 opposite groups of people most active in this issue: pro life /anti abortion (aligned with church and bunch of old people) and anti life / pro abortion ( basicly like LGBT and related movements, woke, anti family etc )

    Now, why is this not a real problem? For one thing because of the super small numbers of people it really affects, and secondly because on both sides the people who are most interested in this subject are people who either dont want or cant have children (priests and old people on one side, sexual minorities and anti family people on the other).

    TBH tho i live in Poland, i only heard about this issue like 2 days ago, because i dont follow the news, and dont watch much tv. I recommend that to anyone.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    In a democracy, people are allowed to protest what they are unhappy with. You don't have to be in the majority in a democracy to voice your disagreements and protest. That's how you start shifting the popular opinion and the democracy is supposed to give you the tools to do that.
    One of those tools is non-violent protests.
    My point is that some posts including the OP hypocritically claimed that this somehow proves Poland to be not democratic, while it is literally democracy in action. Some people just keep being "pro-democracy" when outcome of democratic process matches their beliefs, but if it does not they instantly claim that "democracy isn't working".

  15. #55
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    What is na "unborn child"? A fetus?
    Ehhh... that's an interesting question I don't have a solid answer as.
    Generally I gravitate as "Fetus that is around enough to feel pain has its internal organs instead of being a lamp of rapidly growing cells"
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  16. #56
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    As a Romanian, I will just do one single post on this because it's an extremely sensitive topic, especially in Romania.

    So much so that in Romania any talk of abortion is immediately shut down. It's taboo. For everyone.

    Why?

    Back in the 1970's, Ceausescu decided it would be a great idea to ban abortion completely. There were no exceptions. 0. And if you were a woman over 45 without a child, you had to pay a tax. It was excessively cruel and it achieved almost nothing in terms of population growth - 1% growth in the early 1980's and that's about it. Unfortunately, the collective trauma imposed on the population was immense. And this is no exaggeration.

    According to some figures, more than 11.000 women died in "back-alley" abortions. Worse - if that wasn't enough - a lot of children were simply abandoned and dumped because of this abortion ban, as women instead of having dangerous abortions just abandoned the babies, leading to a catastrophic crisis of over 300.000 children with broken families or in orphanages. The excessive cruelty of the total ban caused immense pain and collective trauma.

    The trauma is still evident today, and despite the Romanian Orthodox Church disapproving of abortions, they do not dare to speak on the issue. Even for them it's still a very heavy topic. The democratic government installed after 1989 immediately decriminalised abortion in 1990, knowing how much of a problem it was. One MP decided back in 2012 to touch it; the absolute firestorm caused made her retract rather rapidly.

    Abortion in Romania is the worst possible example, and the collective trauma imposed means that for a very long time nobody will dare to touch it. For good reason.

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  17. #57

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    The people defending anti-abortion laws have no idea what they're talking about.

  18. #58
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Women's rights protests against abortion ruling goes on.

    Tens of thousands of protesters across almost 50 Polish cities blocked city streets in cars, on bicycles and on foot on Monday on the fifth day of demonstrations against a a supreme court decision to tighten an already strict abortion law in the predominantly Catholic country.





    https://www.dw.com/en/womens-rights-...law/a-55402668


    The protests have intensified too:

    'At the weekend, 20 young men and women held a sit-down protest in front of the altar of a church in Poznan, chanting and holding up banners. The disruption was so massive that the priest broke off the Mass.

    Catholic Church under fire


    Protesters holding banners that read "You have blood on your hands," "Women's hell" and "Let us pray for the right to abortion" also tried to enter churches in other cities. Several church buildings, including the cathedral in Warsaw, were spray-painted with slogans such as "Abortion is okay" and "Abortion without borders." In Poznan and a Warsaw suburb, memorials to Pope John Paul II were desecrated — an extraordinary act in view of the fact that he is a kind of national saint for many Polish people even today.'




    https://www.dw.com/en/womens-rights-...law/a-55402668


    And the reaction of polnish right-wing?

    'Far right backs church

    Ultra-right groups have said they will create a "national guard" to protect the Catholic Church and church buildings from riots.
    "The left-wing groups say it is a war. We are taking part in this war," said Robert Bakiewicz, head of a radical nationalist association named Marsz Niepodleglosci (Independence March).


    We are "in the middle of a neo-Bolshevik revolution," he said on Monday in front of a church in Warsaw. "The time for peace and tolerance for barbarians is over."
    That same church saw clashes between demonstrators and right-wing radicals on Sunday when the latter blocked the entrance to the church and tried to drive protesters from the church steps. On Monday evening, police stood guard at the entrance to another church in Warsaw where hundreds of protesters had gathered with whistles, drums and banners. A group of right-wing radicals stood behind the police officers, also aiming to protect the church. In the future, they say, want to be active everywhere as part of the planned "national guard."

    "We will defend every church, every residential area, every town and village," Bakiewicz said.'

    https://www.dw.com/en/womens-rights-...law/a-55402668

    In the same horn are the by PiS controlled public medias are blowing:

    'The TVP state TV broadcaster described the opposition's protest as "left-wing fascism that is destroying Poland." '


    Hopefully the protests will lead to an end of this anti-woman law and to liberalisation of polnish society.
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  19. #59

    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Some people only like democracy as long as its outcome matches their beliefs. But if they do not, then "democracy is failing". Hence why we see so much salt from alleged supporters of liberal democracy, who are unhappy with the democratic decision made by Polish people.
    Also vandalizing religious buildings is a terrible way to attract support for your cause. Those "womens rights" groups need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

  20. #60
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
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    Default Re: Poland: Popular protests against abortion ban.

    Abdulmecid, thank you for your kind words in private. Indeed, it was a very traumatic experience for millions of families in Romania during that period.

    For those who want to have a better idea, have a look at a 2007 movie made by Cristian Mungiu, a Romanian director - 4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days. The movie follows the path of 2 young people trying to get an illegal abortion during that time period. The movie won the Palme D'Or in Cannes and was also listed by the BBC as rank 15 on the Best Movies of the 21st Century. On the opposite side, the Academy Awards Committee refused to consider it because abortion is such a touchy topic in the United States.

    Ironically, the movie itself forced the Oscars to reform their methodology of nominating movies because the controversy over the movie at that time was so great.

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