Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

[PointOfViewGun]

Explain how that is relevant when you allegedly agree that that does not excuse murder.
I've already stated that they should not have fired the guy for the supposedly anti-semetic cartoon and I've always been consistent on my stance on free speech so you can piss off with that.

There is no rule that forbids us from discussing anything but the immediate details of the murder. However, discussing many factors revolving around such murders do put a knife through the narrative of "bad Muslim" which is why people seem to be trying to silence any level of criticism.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

There is no rule that forbids us from discussing anything but the immediate details of the murder. However, discussing many factors revolving around such murders do put a knife through the narrative of "bad Muslim" which is why people seem to be trying to silence any level of criticism.

Despite your denial you are once again excusing the murder of those who mock Islam. Disgusting, but not surprising. The perpetrator of the crime and those who agree with him are barbarians that do not belong in a civilised society, and to attempt to shift the blame to the victims is nothing short of vile.
You are free of course to criticize Charlie Hebdo, but in this context you are simply trying to excuse the inexcusable. No rational person would accept mockery of faith as a just cause for murder.

[Ludicus]

However, discussing many factors revolving around such murders do put a knife through the narrative of "bad Muslim" which is why people seem to be trying to silence any level of criticism

Precisely. They feel uncorfortable,but it's necessary to go deeper into the subject.

To summarize: the intellectual origin of the petty propaganda.. post #222...is the unqualified, under evidence dopinions.

Not really. Terrorist attacks and the recent refugee influx are the topics on which your beloved far-right politicians,capitalizing on fear, mobilise people against the evil Muslims and evil immigrants.It is time for our Western countries to address the structural problems contributing to the hatred of Muslims, immigrants, blacks and other minorities.

No,the author is right,- as he says, "there are enough similarities between the treatment currently being faced by Muslims and that faced by the Jews prior to the Holocaust to make people take notice".
In fact, the holocaust did not happen unexpectedly. Anti-Semitic discourse was institutionally legitimised and gradually led to public hatred against Jewish minorities in Europe over a long period of time.
--
Is there any difference between Der Sturmer and Charlie Hebdo caricatures? Not really. It borders on copy and past plagiarism.

2016.
Title:Migrants. The captation in French reads:"what would've become of Aylan had he grown up?"






1934
Title: The Curse in the Blood. Caption: "Every little Jewish baby grows up to be a Jew.”

[nhytgbvfeco2]

1934
Title: The Curse in the Blood. Caption: "Every little Jewish baby grows up to be a Jew.”

How many people did Jews behead in response?

[PointOfViewGun]

Despite your denial you are once again excusing the murder of those who mock Islam. Disgusting, but not surprising. The perpetrator of the crime and those who agree with him are barbarians that do not belong in a civilised society, and to attempt to shift the blame to the victims is nothing short of vile.
You are free of course to criticize Charlie Hebdo, but in this context you are simply trying to excuse the inexcusable. No rational person would accept mockery of faith as a just cause for murder.

Do you have any argument that doesn't revolve around lying about what others argue? I understand why you need to lie to keep your narrative free of any scrutiny.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Do you have any argument that doesn't revolve around lying about what others argue? I understand why you need to lie to keep your narrative free of any scrutiny.

Then do explain the motive behind attempting to prove the victims to be racist.

[pacifism]

Do reacquaint yourselves with the rules of the site and tone down on the hostility. Several direct insults have been removed and any further violations will be dealt with harshly.

Thread reopened.

[Axalon]

Personally, I think Islam should simply be abolished and outlawed yesterday - worldwide. Just as slavery was... Regardless, there are no excuses to be had for what has been done in the name of Islam in this given instance - or in numerous other lethal instances, or other utterly revolting and unacceptable acts linked to it somehow. This even if we limit the timeframe to just the last 20 years. This event - yet again - illustrates that Islam have no (rational) place in western secular society as it actually rejects each and every freedom that the western secular society offers and relies upon. As a result it is either the western secular society with its freedoms, or it is Islam and the abolition of those very freedoms – there can’t be both at the same time or place. In short, no freedoms of secular western society CAN be rationally applied to any movement that utterly rejects such freedoms in the first place.

Predictably, the pro-Islamic activists - yet again - insist upon irrelevancies, whataboutisms and paltry excuses for the inexcusable - in this case, as in most others. Never ever recognizing or owning up that their precious Islam - yet again - stands at the very center of all this meaningless terror, death and barbarity. Without Islam in the equation it (these killings) would have never ever happened in the first place - it happened because of the existence of Islam. And it happened in Europe because of reckless and idiotic mass-immigration. And we all know it (I think).


***

As a deliberate "kafir" (unbeliever) I have obviously little respect, tolerance or sympathy for Islam or what it supposedly offers - or any people that live by or propagate its creed and doctrines. Much in the same way that Islam - and its self-proclaimed servants/slaves - has no respect or acceptance for me (or any other unbelievers), merely because I am a kafir… I quote…

“Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures. “ (Koran, verse 98:6 - translation Moshin Khan)

"…will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures."! Yup, rats are valued higher then I am as outlined in Islams source-material. This is textbook hate-speech of course - not that I personally mind much - but it clearly is all the same. This by freaking God, supposedly. Now, why should any kafir - or any society built and created by kafirs, for kafirs ever tolerate ANY movement that propagates this (or even remotely similar ideas)? That’s right folks – we/it shouldn’t. Furthermore and I quote...

“Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of Allah, and in His Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) including all obligations ordered by Islam] and do righteous good deeds, they are the best of creatures.” (Koran, verse 98:7 - translation Moshin Khan)

While (Muslims) "they are the best of creatures" - the rest of us are (of course) the worst of creatures for not blindly buying into Islam and its prophet. Is anyone actually stupid enough to honestly take such embarrassing drivel seriously?!? Apparently the answer is a resounding yes as 1.000.000.000+ people openly profess themselves to this laughable and hysterical junk. And here I am thinking that it takes some serious brainwashing and groupthink to even begin making such obvious BS adding up somehow. Personally, I think Islam is the only movement I ever encountered that manage to be both ridiculous, obnoxious and embarrassing - all at the same time. I used to think that such combination was not even possible - but - "glorious" Islam has shown me otherwise. Just look at this clip….




And have some excellent commentary on top of that, by D.Wood…




- A

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

But more importantly Macron's attempts to crack down on Islamists and "anti-French values". Centrists being Centrists. They borrow from here, take a little from over there. Honestly this is just Macron putting up some bait. It is a clear attempt to undercut Le Pen's platform in the next election. But also a meaningless gesture to prevent another Yellow Vest type of riot.

This stuff got old 5 years ago, and no one did anything about it. Islamists aren't going to stop. Assuming there was a way to get them to stop, there would probably be another wave of migrants rather soon actually, probably legal immigration in some years as well. So what does Macron's hard stance accomplish other than piss off more Muslims, cause more incidents, and justify a power grab by the state?

Worst case scenario the French populace freaks out (despite the "refugees welcome", but people are bipolar that way) and start lynching Muslims. Which just leads to more repressive legislation on everybody. So the French FIFTH Republic's days are numbered. To think that another French Republic will be toppled by a midget.

[Infidel144]

Islam is not a religion of peace or war. Islam alllows muslims defend their lands when it's needed. And Islam allows muslims to make peace if the enemy wants that too.

Whenever attacked, defend yourselves; As much as any civilized nation would do, e.g. USA today, God gave the believers the right to defend themselves if resorting to peaceful means did not work out and they are still attacked, as we clearly see in 47:4. This verse deals with a war situation, in a situation where the believers are under attack.[Quran 47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had God willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.


[Quran 8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[Quran 9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. God loves the righteous.
[Quran 4:90] …if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no excuse to fight them. As we also read in 9:6, even people with different belief than our own, during the actual war situation, is to be granted safe passage with us if he seeks it.

And a muslim who lives in a non muslim country he needs to follow the laws and the rules of that country he lives in. So he's not allowed to kill someone or harm anyrhing. According the sharia law no individual is allowed play judge.

Islam also allows muslims to offensively attack:
[Quran 9:5] And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

[Quran 9:29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

[PointOfViewGun]

Quran 9:6

And if anyone from the polytheists asks for your protection ˹O Prophet˺, grant it to them so they may hear the Word of Allah, then escort them to a place of safety, for they are a people who have no knowledge.

[Sar1n]

...and then, if they don't convert, kill them. Like Muhammad did or threatened to do to polytheists in Mecca, Ta'if, several Arabic tribes...

BTW, how about something specific about protecting, say, Christians, atheists, apostates from Islam....

[PointOfViewGun]

...and then, if they don't convert, kill them. Like Muhammad did or threatened to do to polytheists in Mecca, Ta'if, several Arabic tribes...

BTW, how about something specific about protecting, say, Christians, atheists, apostates from Islam....

There is no command in Quran to kill someone if they're peaceful Muslim or not. Can you provide a verse from the Bible or Torah on protection of apostasy so that I can look for what you have in mind?

[Sar1n]

There is no command in Quran to kill someone if they're peaceful Muslim or not. Can you provide a verse from the Bible or Torah on protection of apostasy so that I can look for what you have in mind?

Except for, for example, whole ninth surah which basically says: make treaties with pagans so you can preach to them. Then, if they reject Islam, once the treaties expire, subjugate them by force.

Here we see typical apologist's defense: whattaboutism and "it isn't in Qu'ran". Even if it's a lie, it's attempted deflection from hadith, where is most of the violence commanded.

By the way. I'm agnostic. And this isn't about other religions either, it's about Islam.

[PointOfViewGun]

Except for, for example, whole ninth surah which basically says: make treaties with pagans so you can preach to them. Then, if they reject Islam, once the treaties expire, subjugate them by force.
Here we see typical apologist's defense: whattaboutism and "it isn't in Qu'ran". Even if it's a lie, it's attempted deflection from hadith, where is most of the violence commanded.
By the way. I'm agnostic. And this isn't about other religions either, it's about Islam.

That's not really what the 9th surah is about though. Ignoring the fact that it deals with a particular episode of history, it doesn't tell Muslims to make treaties to preach.

Quran 9:4

As for the polytheists who have honoured every term of their treaty with you and have not supported an enemy against you, honour your treaty with them until the end of its term. Surely Allah loves those who are mindful ˹of Him˺.

I merely asked you to provide an example from the Torah or the Bible that I thought you'd be more familiar with. Never seen you ask the same question towards them. It's only natural of me to ask for examples. Why did it trigger you?

[Sar1n]

That's not really what the 9th surah is about though. Ignoring the fact that it deals with a particular episode of history, it doesn't tell Muslims to make treaties to preach.

Quran 9:4

And what does 9:5 say? Oh yeah...once the treaties expire, then kill them if they don't convert. Which is included in my original summary.

I merely asked you to provide an example from the Torah or the Bible that I thought you'd be more familiar with. Never seen you ask the same question towards them. It's only natural of me to ask for examples. Why did it trigger you?

Why am I asking this about Islam and not other religions? Look at the topic of this thread. Look at all the religious violence recently and how overwhelmingly it is Islamic in origin. You knew all that. And you have the audacity to even ask?

[PointOfViewGun]

And what does 9:5 say? Oh yeah...once the treaties expire, then kill them if they don't convert. Which is included in my original summary.

Nope. 9:5 doesn't say that. Treaties are only mentioned in the case they're violated. No word about once they expire.

Why am I asking this about Islam and not other religions? Look at the topic of this thread. Look at all the religious violence recently and how overwhelmingly it is Islamic in origin. You knew all that. And you have the audacity to even ask?

Of course I have the audacity to ask as what you say has no real value other the sensationalism attempt. Will you not provide an example then?

[Sar1n]

Nope. 9:5 doesn't say that. Treaties are only mentioned in the case they're violated. No word about once they expire.

Let's take a look at the whole paragraph in question-9.1 to 9.7.
[9:1] A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances. [9:2] Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. [9:3] And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. [9:4] (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. [9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. [9:6] If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. [9:7] How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

What do I see?

Make treaties of free passage with pagans. Then, if you're not allied to them, then by the end of the pilgrimage season those treaties are unilaterally dissolved and Muslims are commanded to subjugate those pagans by force.

Notice that there are two kinds of treaties in question here. Free passage and alliance. And Qu'ran declares unilaterally voiding the former and attacking once the usefulness is over.

Of course I have the audacity to ask as what you say has no real value other the sensationalism attempt. Will you not provide an example then?

I don't have to. What you're asking is pure whattaboutism. This topic isn't about other religions, it's about Islam.

[PointOfViewGun]

Let's take a look at the whole paragraph in question-9.1 to 9.7.
[9:1] A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances. [9:2] Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. [9:3] And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. [9:4] (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. [9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. [9:6] If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. [9:7] How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
What do I see?
Make treaties of free passage with pagans. Then, if you're not allied to them, then by the end of the pilgrimage season those treaties are unilaterally dissolved and Muslims are commanded to subjugate those pagans by force.
Notice that there are two kinds of treaties in question here. Free passage and alliance. And Qu'ran declares unilaterally voiding the former and attacking once the usefulness is over.

Nope. You don't see that. It doesn't say that. You're just making that up. Why? I don't know. It's quite basic. Nowhere in it does it command Muslims to make any kind of contract with anyone. It does tell them to remain faithful to those contracts whether they're made with polytheists or not. This is a quite Islamophobic reading of this surah if I can use that term. You share the same sentiments of hatred that ISIL terrorists use when they kill people.

I don't have to. What you're asking is pure whattaboutism. This topic isn't about other religions, it's about Islam.

If you can't find any example you should just plainly say so. Without getting an example you're likely to lie about any example I provide like you lie about what Quran says above.

[TheLeft]

Breaking News!!!! Man reads sixth century Arabic societal rule book and finds it incompatible with his 21st century western life...

We bring you this exclusive item after the age old question from Psalms 21 7-8: What IS the best way of selling your daughter into sexual slavery? Ebay? Craigslist?