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Thread: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

  1. #181

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Islam is not a religion of peace or war. Islam alllows muslims defend their lands when it's needed. And Islam allows muslims to make peace if the enemy wants that too.

    Whenever attacked, defend yourselves; As much as any civilized nation would do, e.g. USA today, God gave the believers the right to defend themselves if resorting to peaceful means did not work out and they are still attacked, as we clearly see in 47:4. This verse deals with a war situation, in a situation where the believers are under attack.[Quran 47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had God willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.


    [Quran 8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
    [Quran 9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. God loves the righteous.
    [Quran 4:90] …if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no excuse to fight them. As we also read in 9:6, even people with different belief than our own, during the actual war situation, is to be granted safe passage with us if he seeks it.

    And a muslim who lives in a non muslim country he needs to follow the laws and the rules of that country he lives in. So he's not allowed to kill someone or harm anyrhing. According the sharia law no
    individual is allowed play judge.


    Last edited by Nesai; November 14, 2020 at 03:49 AM.




  2. #182

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Who's the neckbeard?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Nesai View Post
    And a muslim who lives in a non muslim country he needs to follow the laws and the rules of that country he lives in. So he's not allowed to kill someone or harm anyrhing. According the sharia law no [/FONT][/COLOR]individual is allowed play judge.


    I assume you are familiar with the phrase: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". This is what freedom of speech means in the west. The laws and rules of the country concerning free speech cannot be understood, and therefore not followed, without internalizing this principle. Nobody has the right not to be offended.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  4. #184

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I assume you are familiar with the phrase: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". This is what freedom of speech means in the west. The laws and rules of the country concerning free speech cannot be understood, and therefore not followed, without internalizing this principle. Nobody has the right not to be offended.
    Reality is a little bit different from that...
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #185

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Reality is a little bit different from that...

    Yeah you get beheaded for making fun of something. That is the current reality for certain people.

  6. #186
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Nesai View Post
    Islam is not a religion of peace or war. Islam alllows muslims defend their lands when it's needed.
    They are not defending land or their lives in France.

    Your descriptions just showed how crazy they are now, self sacrifice over some infidel's drawings. The author of Quran didn't anticipate such madness and probably wouldn't be able to understand.

  7. #187
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Reality is a little bit different from that...
    Care to elaborate?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  8. #188

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Yeah you get beheaded for making fun of something. That is the current reality for certain people.
    That's one way actual freedom of speech can be curbed. Simply say "they're worse there so accept what you got." In reality, someone else's failure has no value in validating someone else's failure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is not exactly what freedom of speech means in the West. Not even close. What we have is convenient freedom of speech. For starters, Lèse-majesté laws exist in Europe. Hate speech is regulated, not that I'm against that though. Countries pick and choose which events of history to forbid speech against. Of course, all of these examples vary from country to country. Then we have things like Charlie Hebdo cartoons getting published repeatedly everywhere while Piss Christ exhibition getting vandalized without much media coverage with the exhibition getting pulled out and the artist losing his grants. There is often no freedom of speech against advocacy of any act or substance that might harm individuals. Freedom of speech or expression is also often limited based on what kind of job an individual has. In France, religious symbols can not be worn in schools that have any kind of affiliation to the government. The list goes on. I'm merely pointing out points of principle. In reality, if enough people gather support against a particular speech they often do regulate it.

    Basically, no country has absolute freedom of speech. We merely have freedom of speech people are relatively comfortable about. Sure, we can compare countries based on the level of free speech they have. Sure, many Western countries would be better off compared to a lot of Eastern countries. Yet, when a Pakistani girl comes to France and enrolls in school to be told she can't wear a headscarf in any form you can't expect that girl to internalize freedom of speech. So, I find this holier than thou attitude over free speech to be quite superficial.
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  9. #189
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is not exactly what freedom of speech means in the West. Not even close. What we have is convenient freedom of speech. For starters, Lèse-majesté laws exist in Europe. Hate speech is regulated, not that I'm against that though. Countries pick and choose which events of history to forbid speech against. Of course, all of these examples vary from country to country. Then we have things like Charlie Hebdo cartoons getting published repeatedly everywhere while Piss Christ exhibition getting vandalized without much media coverage with the exhibition getting pulled out and the artist losing his grants. There is often no freedom of speech against advocacy of any act or substance that might harm individuals. Freedom of speech or expression is also often limited based on what kind of job an individual has. In France, religious symbols can not be worn in schools that have any kind of affiliation to the government. The list goes on. I'm merely pointing out points of principle. In reality, if enough people gather support against a particular speech they often do regulate it. Basically, no country has absolute freedom of speech. We merely have freedom of speech people are relatively comfortable about. Sure, we can compare countries based on the level of free speech they have. Sure, many Western countries would be better off compared to a lot of Eastern countries. Yet, when a Pakistani girl comes to France and enrolls in school to be told she can't wear a headscarf in any form you can't expect that girl to internalize freedom of speech. So, I find this holier than thou attitude over free speech to be quite superficial.
    I don't think that saying freedom of speech is not absolute is a very strong argument. It certainly does not make it as arbitrary as you make it appear. Finally, even if there's hypocrisy (and I am sure there is), two wrongs don't make a right.
    In any case I am pretty confident about the aspect that is relevant here, which is that you do not have the right to not be offended. Lèse-majesté, and blasphemy laws, to the extent they still exist, are relics. I really would not take their existence as a precedent for anything that is to come. Barring sysmic shift in political mores, no person or religious figure is going to be added to that category any time soon.

    This is something I am not certain muslims in the west understand. After Paty's murder, a petition was started here in the Netherlands with the aim to make insulting the prophet illegal. It's been signed over 100.000 times. This is never going to happen. This is something we do not do here anymore. Even a parliamentary majority in favour should not be allowed to effect this. This is not arbitrary 'in some cases we do and in others we don't'.
    It is fine to start a discussion about the topic of respect. 90 % of the people will give this respect willingly. But, we don't use the state to enforce this. It's kind of worrying these people can't see that.
    Last edited by Muizer; November 16, 2020 at 05:36 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  10. #190

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I don't think that saying freedom of speech is not absolute is a very strong argument. It certainly does not make it as arbitrary as you make it appear. Finally, even if there's hypocrisy (and I am sure there is), two wrongs don't make a right.
    In any case I am pretty confident about the aspect that is relevant here, which is that you do not have the right to not be offended. Lèse-majesté, and blasphemy laws, to the extent they still exist, are relics. I really would not take their existence as a precedent for anything that is to come. Barring sysmic shift in political mores, no person or religious figure is going to be added to that category any time soon.

    This is something I am not certain muslims in the west understand. After Paty's murder, a petition was started here in the Netherlands with the aim to make insulting the prophet illegal. It's been signed over 100.000 times. This is never going to happen. This is something we do not do here anymore. Even a parliamentary majority in favour should not be allowed to effect this. This is not arbitrary 'in some cases we do and in others we don't'.
    It is fine to start a discussion about the topic of respect. 90 % of the people will give this respect willingly. But, we don't use the state to enforce this. It's kind of worrying these people can't see that.
    If you read what I wrote carefully you'd see that it's beyond merely arguing that freedom of speech is not absolute in the West. You'd also realize that I didn't argue in defense of freedom of speech in the East, or the lack of. I didn't argue that freedom of speech is arbitrary in the West either. The points you choose to touch on, while ignoring others, shows to me that you're deliberately missing the forest for the trees. The state does enforce freedom of expression limitations in the case of a Pakistani kid wearing a headscarf, or a Catholic girl wearing a cross, in a public school in France. We also know for a fact how Netherlands enforces limitations of freedom of speech selectively. The question remains, if a girl in a French school can not express her religious affiliation through simple objects how do you expect them to internalize holier-than-thou freedom of speech/expression attitude that you suggested earlier?
    The Armenian Issue

  11. #191

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    POVG makes a valid point regarding hypocrisy. As far as I'm aware, true freedom of speech (short of immediate calls to violence) only exists in the US, and even there it's under constant threat from various political and/or social agendas. In fact, POVG has on several occasions expressed opinions on this forum that would be illegal to express in France. I know because the historian Bernard Lewis was fined for allegedly "expressing himself without nuance" on the same subject.

    An opinion piece from Newsweek:

    The horrific murder of Samuel Paty, the French teacher who showed cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in a class on freedom of expression, sent shockwaves throughout France. It also forced a difficult conversation about freedom of speech and who has the right to exercise it.

    President Emmanuel Macron and his government responded to the killing by proclaiming their support for freedom of expression. But they have also doubled down on their perpetual smear campaign against French Muslims, and launched their own attack on freedom of expression. Last week, for example, French police interviewed four 10-year-old children for hours on suspicion of "apology of terrorism," after they apparently questioned Paty's choice to show the cartoons.

    The French government is not the champion of free speech that it likes to think it is. In 2019, a court convicted two men for 'contempt' after they burnt an effigy depicting President Macron during a peaceful protest. Parliament is currently discussing a new law that criminalizes the use of images of law enforcement officials on social media. It is hard to square this with the French authorities' vigorous defence of the right to depict the Prophet Mohammed in cartoons.

    The right to freedom of expression includes opinions that might disturb, offend or shock, and depictions of the Prophet Mohammed are protected under this. No one should fear violence or harassment for reproducing or publishing such images.

    But those who do not agree with publishing the cartoons also have the right to voice their concerns. The right to freedom of expression also protects the ability to criticize the choice to depict religions in ways that may be perceived as stereotypical or offensive. Being opposed to the cartoons does not make one a 'separatist', a bigot or an 'Islamist'.

    While the right to express opinion or views that may be perceived as offending religious beliefs is strenuously defended, Muslims' freedoms of expression and religion usually receive scant attention in France under the disguise of Republican universalism. In the name of secularism, or laïcité, Muslims in France cannot wear religious symbols or dress in schools or in public sector jobs.

    France's record on freedom of expression in other areas is just as bleak. Thousands of people are convicted every year for "contempt of public officials", a vaguely defined criminal offence that law enforcement and judicial authorities have applied in massive numbers to silence peaceful dissent. In June this year, the European Court of Human Rights found that the convictions of 11 activists in France for campaigning for a boycott of Israeli products violated their free speech.

    The murder of Samuel Paty has also prompted actions by the French authorities which recall the state of emergency that followed the 2015 Paris attacks. Beginning in 2015, parliament-approved exceptional measures under the state of emergency led to thousands of abusive and discriminatory raids and house arrest targeting Muslims.

    In a disturbing sign of history repeating itself, the French government is now in the process of dissolving organizations and closing mosques, on the basis of the ambiguous concept of 'radicalization.' Throughout the state of emergency, 'radicalization' was often used as a euphemism for "devout Muslim."

    Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of Interior, has also announced his intention to dissolve the Collective Against Islamophobia in France (CCIF), an organization that combats discrimination against Muslims. He has described the CCIF as "an enemy of the Republic" and a "back room of terrorism." The Minister has not produced any evidence that could substantiate his claims.

    In a video published on social media, one of the parents who opposed Paty's choice to show the cartoons suggested reporting similar 'discriminatory acts' to the CCIF, and discus the cartoons with the organization. The French authorities have failed to join the dots between this kind of community work and the notion that the CCIF has had any role in promoting violence or "separatism."
    I haven't fact-checked every assertion made by the author, but if even half is accurately represented, the hypocrisy allegation is well-founded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #192
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    IThe points you choose to touch on, while ignoring others, shows to me that you're deliberately missing the forest for the trees.
    If you go back to Nesai's post and my response, I think you will see I responded to the elements of your post that are relevant to the scope of that exchange. Are you arguing that is not valid? In other words, are you arguing that because the right to free speech is not absolute, more exceptions can be added and that there is no fundamental reason not to advocate a 'right not to be insulted'? In that case I would argue that the exceptions that exist, to my knowledge, stem from collision with other rights that are deemed 'fundamental' as well, such as freedom from discrimination. There is no fundamental right to freedom from insult that I'm aware of. There's freedom of religion, but that is not impacted by insulting cartoons either.

    I would also note that having the right to free speech means speech itself is not illegal. It does not mean one can say whatever one wants. wherever one wants it without consequence. You can still get fired for insulting your boss and a secular state can still ban religious symbols from public buildings as long as it does not discriminate one against another. None of that makes expressing views illegal in itself.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  13. #193

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Indeed, I could easily serve jail time in France because of articles I've openly written online or offline about Armenian genocide allegations citing various renowned scholars like Ottoman history expert Bernard Lewis or Ottoman military history expert Edward J. Erickson. Same is true for Switzerland and Southern Cyprus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    If you go back to Nesai's post and my response, I think you will see I responded to the elements of your post that are relevant to the scope of that exchange. Are you arguing that is not valid? In other words, are you arguing that because the right to free speech is not absolute, more exceptions can be added and that there is no fundamental reason not to advocate a 'right not to be insulted'? In that case I would argue that the exceptions that exist, to my knowledge, stem from collision with other rights that are deemed 'fundamental' as well, such as freedom from discrimination. There is no fundamental right to freedom from insult that I'm aware of. There's freedom of religion, but that is not impacted by insulting cartoons either.

    I would also note that having the right to free speech means speech itself is not illegal. It does not mean one can say whatever one wants. wherever one wants it without consequence. You can still get fired for insulting your boss and a secular state can still ban religious symbols from public buildings as long as it does not discriminate one against another. None of that makes expressing views illegal in itself.
    This response doesn't seem to be written based on what I wrote. You continue to talk as if you didn't read anything I've said... There is obviously a reason why you're trying to avoid addressing what I've actually pointed out. Dismissing them falsely as exceptions does not validate your characterization. The point I'm making is quite simple which is why its concerning that people try to act as if it does not exist. You can not expect people to internalize freedom of speech/expression when you don't allow something as simple as wearing a cross or a head scarf.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; November 17, 2020 at 06:29 AM.
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #194

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    LOL at the idea of Christians calling Muslims backwards. Especially when one of the central tenets of your faith is the bit where your God magics himself into wine and wafers...

  15. #195

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Meanwhile, also in France:

    Freedom of speech in France extends to Macron's critics as well
    The withdrawal of two articles critical of the French president's rhetoric towards Muslims raises questions about his own commitment to the values he claims to champion
    Macron claims to be a vehement defender of free speech. Yet the French president appears to be affronted by critics making their case in the public domain where Macron can challenge them.
    The Armenian Issue

  16. #196
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Until journalists start getting murdered and beheaded, it’s not a comparison to Islamic extremism.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  17. #197

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    LOL at the idea of Christians calling Muslims backwards. Especially when one of the central tenets of your faith is the bit where your God magics himself into wine and wafers...
    Both religions are just as ridiculous in their tenets, but they're religions. Reason doesn't mean squat there.

    But at least Christians have, by large, learned to treat women and nonbelievers as people and equals. I don't see the same in Muslim countries and communities.

  18. #198

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Both religions are just as ridiculous in their tenets, but they're religions. Reason doesn't mean squat there.

    But at least Christians have, by large, learned to treat women and nonbelievers as people and equals. I don't see the same in Muslim countries and communities.
    The Bible is one of the most misogynistic books around. Claiming that somehow the majority of Christians are now fully paid up feminists is a bold claim, and one that needs a tonne of evidence to back it up.

  19. #199
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Until journalists start getting murdered and beheaded, it’s not a comparison to Islamic extremism.
    Makes you kinda miss the inquisition, right? Helps that Christianity has a 600 year lead in the 'how to treat deviants' department I would say - it is a slow process after all.










  20. #200

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Until journalists start getting murdered and beheaded, it’s not a comparison to Islamic extremism.
    Is getting shot enough barbarity? Or do your requirements specifically have to be decapitation to qualify?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47985469

    Oh look, a journalist was murdered during a long running period of civil unrest caused by two factions who have differing ideas on how to deal with their invisible friend...

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