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Thread: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

  1. #261

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. You don't see that. It doesn't say that. You're just making that up. Why? I don't know. It's quite basic. Nowhere in it does it command Muslims to make any kind of contract with anyone. It does tell them to remain faithful to those contracts whether they're made with polytheists or not. This is a quite Islamophobic reading of this surah if I can use that term. You share the same sentiments of hatred that ISIL terrorists use when they kill people.
    Based on how the Muslim countries practice Islam, you are effectively calling them Islamophobic.

    It's interesting that all the time you've focused on one minor point, about creating of treaties. Here, you have to take into account the context if the surah (oh, how Muslim apologetics love to use that excuse)-securing the passage for pilgrimage to Mecca.
    And you've totally ignored the rest, which is main point of criticism. 9.3. says to declare treaties with pagans void at the end of pilgrimage. 9.4. adds clause that treaties of alliance are exception, and 9.5. adds the commandment to attack the pagans with whom you voided the treaties. 9.6 makes provision for potential converts, and 9.7. is a feeble justification.



    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If you can't find any example you should just plainly say so. Without getting an example you're likely to lie about any example I provide like you lie about what Quran says above.
    I don't really give a damn about them.

    As for lies, how about this one?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    There is no command in Quran to kill someone if they're peaceful Muslim or not. Can you provide a verse from the Bible or Torah on protection of apostasy so that I can look for what you have in mind?
    And here we are discussing a surah that calls for breaking of treaties and offensive war.

  2. #262

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Based on how the Muslim countries practice Islam, you are effectively calling them Islamophobic.

    It's interesting that all the time you've focused on one minor point, about creating of treaties. Here, you have to take into account the context if the surah (oh, how Muslim apologetics love to use that excuse)-securing the passage for pilgrimage to Mecca.
    And you've totally ignored the rest, which is main point of criticism. 9.3. says to declare treaties with pagans void at the end of pilgrimage. 9.4. adds clause that treaties of alliance are exception, and 9.5. adds the commandment to attack the pagans with whom you voided the treaties. 9.6 makes provision for potential converts, and 9.7. is a feeble justification.
    Many are, sure. It is no coincidence that many rely on such corrupted take on Islam to remain in power. Not sure what that has to do with you lying about Quran. Is it a coincidence that you miss on responding to that simple fact? If you want to gain some credit come out clean and acknowledge using such a simple lie. Anyways... The context is that while a peace treaty existed between Muslims and the Quraysh, Banu Bakr, with the support of Quraysh, attacked Banu Khuza, which was an ally of the Muslims. However, we don't need this context as the surah makes it very clear that Muslims are not to fight those that are peaceful. The main point here, however, is that you lied about what the Quran says.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    As for lies, how about this one?
    And here we are discussing a surah that calls for breaking of treaties and offensive war.
    What lie is there on my part? We're discussing a surah that allows breaking treaties with people that violated it. There is demonstrably nothing offensive about it.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #263

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Many are, sure. It is no coincidence that many rely on such corrupted take on Islam to remain in power. Not sure what that has to do with you lying about Quran. Is it a coincidence that you miss on responding to that simple fact? If you want to gain some credit come out clean and acknowledge using such a simple lie. Anyways... The context is that while a peace treaty existed between Muslims and the Quraysh, Banu Bakr, with the support of Quraysh, attacked Banu Khuza, which was an ally of the Muslims. However, we don't need this context as the surah makes it very clear that Muslims are not to fight those that are peaceful. The main point here, however, is that you lied about what the Quran says.

    What lie is there on my part? We're discussing a surah that allows breaking treaties with people that violated it. There is demonstrably nothing offensive about it.
    [Quran 9:5] And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush...

    Plain and simple description of offensive war. Demonstrated.

  4. #264

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Thank God the worshippers in Notre-Dame basilica weren't polytheists.



  5. #265

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    [Quran 9:5] And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush...

    Plain and simple description of offensive war. Demonstrated.
    We do learn how to read properly for a reason. It's not like verse right before that one tells people to stay peaceful with those that stay peaceful, aka only attack those that attack you. It's really not complicated.
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #266

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    We do learn how to read properly for a reason. It's not like verse right before that one tells people to stay peaceful with those that stay peaceful, aka only attack those that attack you. It's really not complicated.
    The previous two verses actually say "break the treaties with pagans, unless they're alliances, and...9.5.

    But you seem to be ignoring the 9.3.

  7. #267

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    The previous two verses actually say "break the treaties with pagans, unless they're alliances, and...9.5.
    But you seem to be ignoring the 9.3.
    This is like arguing self-defense laws tells people to randomly kill people.
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #268

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This is like arguing self-defense laws tells people to randomly kill people.
    Nope, this is context. Y'know, those parts that are missing from 9.4 to make actual sense of that sentence.

  9. #269
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    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Can someone explain to me why a holy book is telling people how to conduct foreign policy in this way?
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  10. #270

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Can someone explain to me why a holy book is telling people how to conduct foreign policy in this way?
    Can you tell us why it can't tell a group of people, who were formerly prosecuted by other groups, to defend themselves?
    The Armenian Issue

  11. #271

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Can you tell us why it can't tell a group of people, who were formerly prosecuted by other groups, to defend themselves?
    Impressively, this little persecuted group of people in Arabia managed to defend themselves all the way to Iberia in the west and India in the east, creating the largest empire the world had ever known.
    Last edited by sumskilz; December 15, 2020 at 07:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #272

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Impressively, this little persecuted group of people in Arabia managed to defend themselves all the way to Iberia in the west and India in the east, creating the largest empire the world had ever known.
    Kinda like how Jews created very powerful kingdoms and states in history after being treated as slaved in Egypt. I'm sure you find that equally impressive in a similar fashion...
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #273

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Kinda like how Jews created very powerful kingdoms and states in history after being treated as slaved in Egypt. I'm sure you find that equally impressive in a similar fashion...
    There is no extra-Biblical evidence for the conquest of Canaan, but to deny that the Bible advocates the conquest of Canaan would be as silly as denying that the Quran advocates the eradication of polytheism, the subjugation of the people of the book, and the territorial expansion of the the dominion of Islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #274

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    There is no extra-Biblical evidence for the conquest of Canaan, but to deny that the Bible advocates the conquest of Canaan would be as silly as denying that the Quran advocates the eradication of polytheism, the subjugation of the people of the book, and the territorial expansion of the the dominion of Islam.
    Jumping from one veiled attempt to an other, I see, and doing it so elegantly... Wanna explain how you connect what we said earlier with this? We should at least watch you attempt it.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #275

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    I think you are the one who jumped, you attempted to conflate a multi continental empire with jews expanding some territory over a very small area that is barely a nation by modern day standards, and are now treating this like some kind of intellectual victory, could you explain that? You can't be claiming to be an honest actor in that response surely.

  16. #276

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny Crane View Post
    I think you are the one who jumped, you attempted to conflate a multi continental empire with jews expanding some territory over a very small area that is barely a nation by modern day standards, and are now treating this like some kind of intellectual victory, could you explain that? You can't be claiming to be an honest actor in that response surely.
    His silence kinda confirms the failure in his attempts though. To compare the sizes of Muslim and Jewish states is to jump on dick measurement contest. The actual point is that both communities started from persecution and was able to create a successful and powerful states. I don't see where and how I declared any kind of victory. If you need to declare victory its no proper victory. You just need to read what people write more carefully.
    The Armenian Issue

  17. #277

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    ...and then, if they don't convert, kill them. Like Muhammad did or threatened to do to polytheists in Mecca, Ta'if, several Arabic tribes...
    For example Muhammad sent Khalid bin Walid to the Bani al-Harith of Najran to invite them to Islam, for their own safety, and if they did not accept to kill them (10 AH):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Messenger of God sent Khalid b. al-Walid in the month of Rabi' II, or Jumada I, in the year 10/631 to Banu al Harith b. Kab in Najran and ordered to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they should respond to him [with the acceptance of Islam], then he was to accept it from them, and to stay with them and teach them the Book of God, the sunnah of His prophet, and the requirements of Islam [ma'alim al-islam), if they should decline then he was to fight them.
    Khalid departed and came to them, sending out riders in every direction inviting them to Islam and saying, "O people, accept Islam, and you will be safe." So they embraced Islam and responded to his call. Khalid stayed with them, teaching them Islam, the Book of God, and the sunnah of His prophet. Then Khalid wrote to the Messenger of God: "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, to Muhammad the Prophet, the Messenger of God, from Khalid b. al-Walid. Peace be upon you, O Messenger of God, and God's mercy and blessings." The Messenger of God wrote to him:570 "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, from Muhammad, the Prophet, the Messenger of God, to Khalid b. al-Walid. I praise God, the only God, unto you, the only God.
    Now then: O Messenger of God, God bless you. You sent me to the Banu al-Harith b Ka'b and ordered that when i came to them, I should not fight them for three days and that I should Invite them to Islam. [You also ordered that] if they accepted it, I should accept it from them and teach then the requirements of Islam. The Book of God and the Sunnah of His Prophet. If they did not accept Islam, I was to fight them. I came to them and invited them to Islam for three days as the Messenger of God commanded me, and I sent riders among them riders among them [announcing], 'O Banu al-Harith, embrace Islam, and you will be safe.' They have surrendered and did not fight, and I am staying in their midst ordering them [to do] what God has ordered, forbidding them from [doing] what God has forbidden, and teaching them the requirements of Islam and Sunnah of the Prophet, until the Messenger of God writes to me. Peace be upon you, O Messenger of God, and God's mercy and blessings.
    The Messenger of God wrote to him: "In the name of God the most compassionate the most merciful, from Muhammad, the Prophet, the Messenger of God, to Khalid b. al-Walid. Peace be upon you. I praise God, the only God, unto you. Now then: Your letter has reached me via a Messenger with news that the Banu al Harith [b. Ka'b] surrender before they fought and responded to your invitation of Islam and pronouncement (of the shahadah) that there is no God, except God alone, who has no associate and that Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger. God has guided them with His guidance, so give them good tidings and warn them and return, and let their deputation come with you. Peace be upon you, and God's mercy and His blessings." Then Khalid b. al-Walid came back to the Messenger of God and with him came the deputation of Banu al-Harith b. Ka'b. Qays b. al-Husayn b. Yazid b. Qanan Dhu al-Ghussah, Yazid b. 'Abd al-Madan,Yazid b. al-Muhajjal, 'Abdallah b. Qurayz , al- Ziyadi, Shadad b. Abdullah al-Qanani, and Amr b. Abdallah al-Dababi were among the delegation.
    When they came to the Messenger of God, he saw them and asked who those people were, because they looked like Indians. He was told that they were the Banu al-Harith b. Ka'b. When they stood before the Messenger of God, they greeted him and said, "We testify that you are the Messenger of God and that there is no god but Allah." He replied, "And I testify that there is no god but Allah, and that I am the Messenger of God". Then he said "You are the ones when driven away would push forward." They then became silent and none of them answered him. He repeated it three times and none of them replied.
    When he repeated it the fourth time Yazid b. 'Abd al-Madan replied, "Yes, O Messenger of God, we are the ones who, when driven away, pushed forward," and he repeated it four times. The Messenger of God said, "Had Khalid b. al-Walid not written to me that you had surrendered and had not fought, I would have thrown your heads underneath your feet."

    The History of al-Tabari Vol. 9
    Ibn Ishaq stated,
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "The Messenger of God (SAAS) sent forth Khalid b. al-Walid
    in Rabi' al-Akhir, orJumada al-Uwla of 10 AH to Banu a1-harith b. Kab in Najran.
    "He ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before attacking them.
    If they responded positively, he was to accept them, and if they did not, he was
    to attack them.
    "Khalid went forth and when he reached them, he sent out riders in all
    directions inviting them to Islam, telling them, 'Accept Islam and you will be safe.'
    "They did accept Islam and accepted what they had been asked to do. Khalid
    remained with them, instructing them in Islam, in God's Book and in the
    practices of His Prophet CSAAS), as the latter had ordered if they should accept
    Islam and not do battle."

    Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya
    BTW, how about something specific about protecting, say, Christians, atheists, apostates from Islam....
    Prior to that, Muhammad sent the Christians of Najran a letter, inviting them to Islam, failing acceptance they would have to pay the jizya to protect their lives, if both were refused, then there would be consequences:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This is a letter from Muhammad, The Prophet and Messenger of Allah to the Bishop of Najran : I praise and glorify the Lord of Ibrahim, Ishaq and Ya'qub,and invite you all to worship Allah instead of worshiping His Creatures,so that you may come out of the guardianship of the creatures of Allah Himself. In case you do not accept my invitation,you must (at least) pay Jazyah (tribute) to the Islamic administration (in lieu of which it will undertake the protection of your lives and property),failing to which you are hereby warned of precarious consequences.

    Or as related in Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The hafiz Abu Bakr al-Bayhaqi stated that he was informed by Abu 'Abd Allah
    al-Hafiz~ and Abu Sa'id Muhammad b. Musa ibn al-Fadl, both of whom said,
    "Abu al-'Abbas Muhammad b. Ya'qub related to us, quoting Ahmad b. 'Abd
    al-Jabbar, quoting Yunus b. Bukr, from Salama b. 'Abd Yasii', from his father,
    from his grandfather. Yunus, who had been a Christian and had accepted Islam,
    said that the Messenger of God (SAAS) wrote to Najran before the (sirat) Ta
    Sin of Sulayman (Soloman) had been revealed to him, 'In the name of the God
    of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, from Muhammad, the Prophet, the Messenger of
    God, to the bishop of Najran. Are you peaceable? I praise to you the God of
    Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To proceed: I summon you to the worship of God,
    away from worshipping servants of God. Ifyou should refuse, then you will have
    to pay the jizya. If you refuse, I am warning you of warfare. Peace.'

    A deputation of the Christians of Najran then went to Medina to debate the divinity of Jesus, in response.
    This is referred to in Surah 3 Imran:
    55. And (remember) when Allah said: "O Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself and
    purify save you from those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.''
    56. "As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.''
    57. And as for those who believe and do righteous good deeds, Allah will pay them their reward in full. And Allah does not like the wrongdoers.
    58. This is what We recite to you of the verses and the Wise Reminder.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This is what happened. When Allah raised `Isa to heaven, his followers divided into sects and groups. Some of them believed in what Allah sent `Isa as, a servant of Allah, His Messenger, and the son of His female-servant.
    However, some of them went to the extreme over `Isa, believing that he was the son of Allah. Some of them said that `Isa was Allah Himself, while others said that he was one of a Trinity. Allah mentioned these false creeds in the Qur'an and refuted them. The Christians remained like this until the third century CE, when a Greek king called, Constantine, became a Christian for the purpose of destroying Christianity. Constantine was either a philosopher, or he was just plain ignorant. Constantine changed the religion of `Isa by adding to it and deleting from it. He established the rituals of Christianity and the so-called Great Trust, which is in fact the Great Treachery. He also allowed them to eat the meat of swine, changed the direction of the prayer that `Isa established to the east, built churches for`Isa, and added ten days to the fast as compensation for a sin that he committed, as claimed. So the religion of Isa became the religion of Constantine, who built more then twelve thousand churches, temples and monasteries for the Christians as well as the city that bears his name, Constantinople (Istanbul). Throughout this time, the Christians had the upper hand and dominated the Jews. Allah aided them against the Jews because they used to be closer to the truth than the Jews, even though both groups were and still are disbelievers, may Allah's curse descend on them.
    ...
    This is what Allah did to the Jews who disbelieved in `Isa and the Christians who went to the extreme over him. Allah tormented them in this life; they were killed, captured, and lost their wealth and kingdoms. Their torment in the Hereafter is even worse and more severe,

    Ibn Kathir

    As for the disbelievers, I will chastise them with a terrible chastisement in this world, through being killed, taken captive and made to pay the jizya, and the Hereafter, in the Fire; they shall have no helpers, none to protect them from it.
    Jalalayn

    It is cited in Majma'-ul-Bayan that the chastisement of this world for them is that they
    become contemptible by being killed or captured, giving poll-tax, and whatever from
    despite and insolence come upon them. And the chastisement of the Hereafter is the
    blazing fire of Hell.
    An Enlightening Commentary

    The surah continues:
    59. Verily, the likeness of Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be! '' and he was.
    60. (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt .
    61. Then whoever disputes with you concerning him after the knowledge that has
    come to you, say: "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women,
    ourselves and yourselves, then we pray and we invoke Allah's curse upon the liars.''
    62. Verily, this is the true narrative, and there is no god except Allah. And indeed, Allah is the Almighty, the All-Wise.
    63. And if they turn away, then surely, Allah is All-Aware of those who do mischief.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "The delegation of Christians from Najran came to the Messenger of Allah. The delegation consisted of sixty horsemen, including fourteen of their chiefs who make decisions. These men were Al-`Aqib, also known as `Abdul-Masih, As-Sayyid, also known as Al-Ayham, Abu Harithah bin `Alqamah, of the family of Bakr bin Wa`il and Uways bin Al-Harith. They also included, Zayd, Qays, Yazid, Nabih, Khuwaylid, `Amr, Khalid, `Abdullah and Yuhannas. Three of these men were chiefs of this delegation, Al-`Aqib, their leader and to whom they referred for advice and decision; As-Sayyid, their scholar and leader in journeys and social gatherings; and Abu Harithah bin `Alqamah, their patriarch, priest and religious leader. Abu Harithah was an Arab man from the family of Bakr bin Wa`il, but when he embraced Christianity, the Romans and their kings honored him and built churches for him (or in his honor). They also supported him financially and gave him servants, because they knew how firm his faith in their religion was.'' Abu Harithah knew the description of the Messenger of Allah from what he read in earlier divine Books. However, his otherwise ignorance led him to insist on remaining a Christian, because he was honored and had a high position with the Christians. Ibn Ishaq said, "Muhammad bin Ja`far bin Az-Zubayr said that, `The (Najran) delegation came to the Messenger of Allah in Al-Madinah, entered his Masjid wearing robes and garments, after the Prophet had prayed the `Asr prayer. They accompanied a caravan of camels led by Bani Al-Harith bin Ka`b. The Companions of the Messenger of Allah who saw them said that they never saw a delegation like them after that... Then Abu Harithah bin `Alqamah and Al-`Aqib `Abdul-Masih or As-Sayyid Al-Ayham spoke to the Messenger of Allah, and they were Christians like the king (Roman King). However, they disagreed about `Isa; some of them said, `He is Allah,' while some said, `He is the son of Allah,' and some others said, `He is one of a trinity.' Allah is far from what they attribute to Him.''

    Ibn Kathir

    The event:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Prophet recited this Revelation to the Christians and invited them to meet with him and his family and to settle their dispute in the way here suggested. They said they would think about it, and the next day when they came to the Prophet they saw that 'Ali was with him, and behind them were fa timah and her two sons. The Prophet was wearing a large cloak and he now spread it wide enough to enfold them all in it, including himself. For this reason the five of them are reverently known as "the People of the Cloak". As to the Christians, they said they were not prepared to carry their disagreement so far as imprecation; and the Prophet made with them a favourable treaty according to which, in return for the payment of taxes, they were to have the full protection of the Islamic state for themselves and their churches and other possessions.

    Muhammad his life based on the earliest sources

    The outcome was the pact the Christians of Najran made to avoid war:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
    This pact of Muhammad (S.A.W.), Prophet of Allah is for the people of Najran.
    1. Although Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), had the power to take a share from their produce, gold, silver, weapons and slaves, he treated the people generously and leaving aside all these things, he fixed for them two thousand hullas of the value of one Auqia each, annually — one thousand (to be supplied) in the month of Rajab and one thousand in the month of Safar.
    2. Each Hulls shall be of the value of one Auqia and whichever is of more or less value, shall be accounted for accordingly.
    3. If instead of Hullas, something like armours or horses or riding camels are given it shall be accepted in accordance with its evaluation.
    4. It shall be obligatory on the people of Najran to arrange for the stay of my workers. But they will have to pay taxes within one month. They should not be made to stay far more than a month.
    5. If due to a rebellion in Yemen we have to wage war, the people of Najran will have to lend 30 armours, 20 horses and 30 camels. If any of the animals are lost, the people of Najran shall be provided substitutes.
    6. The lives of the people of Najran and its surrounding area, their religion, their land, property, cattle and those of them who are present or absent, their messengers and their places of worship are under the protection of Allah and guardianship of His Prophet.Their present state shall neither be interfered with, nor their rights meddled with, nor their idols deformed. No Usqu (Bishop) Rahib or Waqa, shall be removed from his office. The intention being that no change in whatever state every one is; shall be made (status quo shall be maintained).
    7. Neither the people shall be punished for any past crime or murder, nor shall they be compelled to do military service. Neither shall Ushr be imposed on them nor any army shall enter their area.
    8. If any one of the people of Najran demands his rights, justice shall be done between the plaintiff and respondent. Neither oppression shall be allowed to be perpetrated on them, nor shall they be permitted to oppress any one.
    9. Whoever from the people of Najran takes interest alter the conclusion of the pact, shall be excluded from my assurance.
    10. No one from the people of Najran shall be implicated in the crime of someone else.
    11. Whatever has been written in this pact, Allah and Muhammad His Prophet (S.A.W.) are guarantors for it, unless there is an order from Allah, in this connection, and as long as the people of Najran remain faithful and adhere to the conditions which have been made for them, except that some one compels them to do otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Except for, for example, whole ninth surah which basically says: make treaties with pagans so you can preach to them. Then, if they reject Islam, once the treaties expire, subjugate them by force.
    Here we see typical apologist's defense: whattaboutism and "it isn't in Qu'ran". Even if it's a lie, it's attempted deflection from hadith, where is most of the violence commanded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Let's take a look at the whole paragraph in question-9.1 to 9.7.
    [9:1] A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances. [9:2] Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. [9:3] And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. [9:4] (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. [9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. [9:6] If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. [9:7] How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
    What do I see?
    Make treaties of free passage with pagans. Then, if you're not allied to them, then by the end of the pilgrimage season those treaties are unilaterally dissolved and Muslims are commanded to subjugate those pagans by force.
    The mushrikun who don't have treaties or have treaties set to expire in less than four months are given four months to accept Islam. Those who have treaties with indefinite time periods have those treaties set to four months as well (Allah abrogating the treaties unilaterally).
    "This Ayah refers to idolators who had indefinite treaties and those, whose treaties with Muslims ended in less than four months. The terms of these treaties were restricted to four months only."
    Ibn Kathir
    Those with treaties set to a definite time period, but longer than four months , were to have those treaties honored until the end of that period, This is. These were the Banu Dhamra and Banu Mudlaj of the Kinana tribe. The treaty for 9 months was the longest (Abdul Majid Daryabadi commentary on the Quran Vol.2, and the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas: "All these treaties were broken except for the treaty with the Banu Kinanah which was for nine months."). After that 9.5 applied to them as well.
    "Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''"
    Ibn Kathir
    "Tribes that respected their agreements and did not conspire with the enemy were to have their agreements remain active until the end of the stipulated period. But when this period ended, the agreements were not to be extended. These tribes, too, would come within the ambit of other idolaters. Biographers have written about the Banu Ḍamra, the Banu Mudlaj and the Banu Kananah that they had always honoured their agreements and that these were also active at the time, so they were secure until the end of their stated remaining periods."
    Khalid Masud, Hayat E Rasul Ummi The Unlettered Prophet
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Breaking News!!!! Man reads sixth century Arabic societal rule book and finds it incompatible with his 21st century western life...
    We bring you this exclusive item after the age old question from Psalms 21 7-8: What IS the best way of selling your daughter into sexual slavery? Ebay? Craigslist?
    Not Psalms. Also retarded whataboutery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by setekh
    Nope. You don't see that. It doesn't say that. You're just making that up. Why? I don't know. It's quite basic. Nowhere in it does it command Muslims to make any kind of contract with anyone. It does tell them to remain faithful to those contracts whether they're made with polytheists or not. This is a quite Islamophobic reading of this surah if I can use that term. You share the same sentiments of hatred that ISIL terrorists use when they kill people.
    Based on how the Muslim countries practice Islam, you are effectively calling them Islamophobic.
    Based on how Muhammad practiced Islam, Muhammad was Islamophobic...
    It's interesting that all the time you've focused on one minor point, about creating of treaties. Here, you have to take into account the context if the surah (oh, how Muslim apologetics love to use that excuse)-securing the passage for pilgrimage to Mecca.
    Not quite. Surah 9 was revealed after Mecca had been conquered, at or about the time of Tabuk.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "This Surah, which is the ninth Surah of the Qur’ān, contains 129 verses and has been
    revealed in the ninth year A.H. (anno Hejira). Some parts of the Surah were revealed before the Battle of Tabūk, some parts during the Battle, and other parts were revealed after it."
    An Enlightening Commentary into the Light of the Holy Quran

    (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws having said: ‘(Surah) Al-Fatah (Chapter110) was in year eight, and (Surah) Bara’at was in year nine, and the Farewell Pilgrimage was in year ten’ (after migration to Medina from Mecca).
    Tafseer Hub-e-Ali asws

    "Chronologically, verses 1-29 were a notable declaration of State policy promulgated about the month of Shawwal, A.H. 9 and read out by Hadhrat 'Ali at the Pilgrimage two months later [...]. The remainder of the Sura, verses 30-129, was revealed a little earlier..."
    Translation Of The Meaning Of The Holy Quran And Commentary In English

    The "free passage" is to give the mushrikun time to accept Islam or leave the Islamic state.
    And you've totally ignored the rest, which is main point of criticism. 9.3. says to declare treaties with pagans void at the end of pilgrimage. 9.4. adds clause that treaties of alliance are exception, and 9.5. adds the commandment to attack the pagans with whom you voided the treaties. 9.6 makes provision for potential converts, and 9.7. is a feeble justification.
    9.4 is for mushrikun with treaties set to a definite time period, but longer than four months. They were to have those treaties honored until the end of that period. These were the Banu Dhamra and Banu Mudlaj of the Kinana tribe. The treaty for 9 months was the longest (Abdul Majid Daryabadi commentary on the Quran Vol.2, and the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas: "All these treaties were broken except for the treaty with the Banu Kinanah which was for nine months."). After that 9.5 applied to them as well.
    "Al-Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''"
    Ibn Kathir
    "Tribes that respected their agreements and did not conspire with the enemy were to have their agreements remain active until the end of the stipulated period. But when this period ended, the agreements were not to be extended. These tribes, too, would come within the ambit of other idolaters. Biographers have written about the Banu Ḍamra, the Banu Mudlaj and the Banu Kananah that they had always honoured their agreements and that these were also active at the time, so they were secure until the end of their stated remaining periods."
    Khalid Masud, Hayat E Rasul Ummi The Unlettered Prophet
    And here we are discussing a surah that calls for breaking of treaties and offensive war.
    Note that Muhammad had already broken the Treaty of Hudabiyya:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    TREATY OF HUDAYBIA
    In Thy Name O Allah
    1. This is the treaty in which Muhammad (S.A.W.) son of Abdullah has made a compromise with Sohail son of ‘Umar.
    2. There shall be no mutual war for ten years.
    3. During this period, every person belonging to the two parties shall be safe and secure and none shall raise a sword against the other.
    4. If any person from amongst the Quraish goes to Medinah he shall be sent back, but if any Muslim goes to Mecca, he shall not be sent back.
    5. The tribes of Arabia would be free to enter into treaty from the side of either of the two parties.
    6. The Muslims shall return this time and come back next year, but they shall not stay in Mecca for more than three days.
    7. They shall not come back armed and shall bring with them swords only, but these shall not be kept out of scabbards and the scabbards kept in bags.

    After Hudabiyya
    "Umm Kulthum bint Uqbah bin Abi Mu`ayt emigrated and her brothers, Umarah and Al-Walid, went after her. They came to Allah's Messenger and talked to him about Umm Kulthum and asked that she be returned to them. Allah abolished the part of the treaty between the Prophet and the idolators about the women particularly. So He forbade returning Muslim women to the idolators and revealed the Ayah about testing them"

    The ayah referred to is 60.10:
    O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and let them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Thank God the worshippers in Notre-Dame basilica weren't polytheists.
    But they were People of the Book:
    9.29: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.

    Ibn Kathir
    "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah."
    Sahih Bukhari
    Last edited by Infidel144; December 21, 2020 at 04:49 AM.

  18. #278

    Default Re: Religion of Peace Strikes Again: Teacher beheaded in France after showing Mohammed cartoons

    LOL. OK And at what point did they stop feeling threatened, at what point in their centuries long expansionist movements, you are comparing what was in essence a tribal nation building to multi continental empire building which is just...dishonest frankly, you know they aren't comparable yet want to keep trying as though people won't pick you up on it.

    Hey you know America invading Iraq well damn dude they were just seeking liberation from the British and making themselves strong, that is the type of rubbish you are trying to pull.

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