Gal Gadot to play Cleopatra

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Plot twist: The boy was sent by the egyptians.

If so they went with the nuclear option because her career is dead. Now Patty Jenkins is walking like an Egyptian... to the unemployment office.

[Kyriakos]

Go west, life is peaceful there - in the county prison

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

It has been suggested cleo was 1/4th Egyptian, so a white actor might not be right.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I did a family tree for Ptolemy III Eurgetes and his wife Berenice II. His children and descendants would go on to commit lots of incest. So I don't really need to do any of his descendants as they have the exact same ancestry.

Ptolemy III had about 50% Macedonian ancestry, 25% Eordaean ancestry, and 25% Thessalian ancestry. Additionally Ptolemy III was also partially the product of incest because his mother's grandfather, the famous Antipater, was the brother of his father's great grandfather Cassander, not the famous Cassander but the one that was the brother of regent Antipater.

Berenice II had roughly 50% Macedonian ancestry, and 50% Sogdian ancestry. But some of her more immediate ancestors had minor Eordaean ancestry as well as from Orestis.

Ptolemy I Soter, who had founded the Dynasty, was actually not from Macedonia as his father Lagus was from Eordaea, which later was absorbed by the Kingdom of the Makedones.

Okay that being said, there is no evidence that Cleopatra's mother was not the sister of her father (her aunt). This is never brought up at any point except by one more recent historian who for some reason introduced this doubt into the narrative. Which for some reason everyone just accepted now.

But no source from antiquity questions Cleopatra's legitimacy as ruler of Egypt, not from the angle of her parentage anyway. Which is odd because if her mother was not a member of the Ptolemaic line but her siblings were, then her claim would have been substantially diminished, as it had been for some prior Ptolemaic kings.

[Roma_Victrix]

Plot twist: The boy was sent by the egyptians.

Those Egyptians, they're very clever. Damn you, confounded Egyptians! A plague of Hosni Mubarak upon your houses!

Well first Arabs made a fuss that Cleopatra would be played by an Israeli. That probably was not the deciding factor though. Doubt studios cared. But then the director Patty Jenkins was outed as having slept with an underage boy or something. So she got canceled and then they canned the movie as well.

Oh wow! I didn't even hear about this. Every time you search for news about Cleopatra it is only about the Netflix thing, and not this from what I've seen in the past month.

Not that I sit around searching for that on Google every day or anything.

If so they went with the nuclear option because her career is dead. Now Patty Jenkins is walking like an Egyptian... to the unemployment office.

LOL. You honestly deserve to walk away from an explosion while putting on sunglasses after dropping this line. I wasn't aware that the Japanese warlord Oda Nobunaga was physically capable of spitting fire (like a dragon, or a rapper MC, take your pick).

But no source from antiquity questions Cleopatra's legitimacy as ruler of Egypt, not from the angle of her parentage anyway. Which is odd because if her mother was not a member of the Ptolemaic line but her siblings were, then her claim would have been substantially diminished, as it had been for some prior Ptolemaic kings.

The Romans, especially Augustus, had all the chances in the world to slander her or point out how she was a bastard daughter if that was the case, but even they never brought it up. Instead Augustan poets simply said she was a harlot sorceress who bewitched Mark Antony and wanted to replace good honest Roman gods with animal headed Egyptian ones. LOL.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Those Egyptians, they're very clever. Damn you, confounded Egyptians! A plague of Hosni Mubarak upon your houses!

Don't you put that evil on me Ricky Bobby!

Oh wow! I didn't even hear about this. Every time you search for news about Cleopatra it is only about the Netflix thing, and not this from what I've seen in the past month.

Not that I sit around searching for that on Google every day or anything.

That is the only reason I know about it. I spent day after day obsessively waiting and refreshing the page. Only to have my hopes ruined. Now I will never be able to complain about this movie.

LOL. You honestly deserve to walk away from an explosion while putting on sunglasses after dropping this line. I wasn't aware that the Japanese warlord Oda Nobunaga was physically capable of spitting fire (like a dragon, or a rapper MC, take your pick).

I dropped a diss track so fire that a bunch of temples burned to the ground, over 50,000 Buddhists perished, and they started calling me the Demon King.

The Romans, especially Augustus, had all the chances in the world to slander her or point out how she was a bastard daughter if that was the case, but even they never brought it up. Instead Augustan poets simply said she was a harlot sorceress who bewitched Mark Antony and wanted to replace good honest Roman gods with animal headed Egyptian ones. LOL.

Yeah exactly. Any writer could have mentioned this but they didn't. Even if Cleopatra had a different mother than her siblings, the chances that her mother was of the Ptolemaic line would be extremely high. Or even that her siblings were the bastards this whole time. But no source brings this up one way or the other. So they probably all had the same mother. Not sure why what's his face (I can't remember the name of the author) claimed that Cleopatra's mother was Egyptian, makes absolutely no sense.

The elephant in the room then becomes... who the heck was Cleopatra VI then? If Cleopatra's mother was Cleopatra V was there even a Cleopatra VI? Is this just a mistake? Should Cleopatra VII actually be Cleopatra VI?

[Laser101]

I dropped a diss track so fire that a bunch of temples burned to the ground, over 50,000 Buddhists perished, and they started calling me the Demon King.

Nobunaga is sometimes depicted as a literal Demon King.

Yeah exactly. Any writer could have mentioned this but they didn't. Even if Cleopatra had a different mother than her siblings, the chances that her mother was of the Ptolemaic line would be extremely high. Or even that her siblings were the bastards this whole time. But no source brings this up one way or the other. So they probably all had the same mother. Not sure why what's his face (I can't remember the name of the author) claimed that Cleopatra's mother was Egyptian, makes absolutely no sense.

The elephant in the room then becomes... who the heck was Cleopatra VI then? If Cleopatra's mother was Cleopatra V was there even a Cleopatra VI? Is this just a mistake? Should Cleopatra VII actually be Cleopatra VI?

You have to wonder how Ptolemaic family gatherings worked. You'd have Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Cleopatra, Cleopatra, Berenice, Berenice...

[Roma_Victrix]

Nobunaga is sometimes depicted as a literal Demon King.



You have to wonder how Ptolemaic family gatherings worked. You'd have Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Cleopatra, Cleopatra, Berenice, Berenice...

There's no way they didn't navigate that without epithets and personal nicknames. Otherwise it would be a cluster**** every time they gathered.

Don't you put that evil on me Ricky Bobby!

LOL. I can see this scene from Talladega Nights in my head as I read this.

That is the only reason I know about it. I spent day after day obsessively waiting and refreshing the page. Only to have my hopes ruined. Now I will never be able to complain about this movie.

Would have been some fun material to work with for sure.

I dropped a diss track so fire that a bunch of temples burned to the ground, over 50,000 Buddhists perished, and they started calling me the Demon King.

Definitely something Oda would do and basically did do but without the supernatural powers of spitting flames with fiery breath.

Yeah exactly. Any writer could have mentioned this but they didn't. Even if Cleopatra had a different mother than her siblings, the chances that her mother was of the Ptolemaic line would be extremely high. Or even that her siblings were the bastards this whole time. But no source brings this up one way or the other. So they probably all had the same mother. Not sure why what's his face (I can't remember the name of the author) claimed that Cleopatra's mother was Egyptian, makes absolutely no sense.

The elephant in the room then becomes... who the heck was Cleopatra VI then? If Cleopatra's mother was Cleopatra V was there even a Cleopatra VI? Is this just a mistake? Should Cleopatra VII actually be Cleopatra VI?

There is speculation that she was either another unknown sister of Cleopatra VII, an unknown aunt of the latter, or surviving sources simply are muddled and Cleopatra VI was just Cleopatra V who reemerged from exile to briefly ally with her daughter Berenice IV before hilariously falling out of favor with her. Berenice IV got hers soon afterwards, though, when Ptolemy XII the flute player returned to Egypt with a Roman army filled with ferocious murder happy Celts and Germans (the Gabiniani of Rome's governor of Syria, Gabinianus). Ptolemy's not such a pansy Dionysian flute player now, is he, Berenice?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Ptolemy XII Auletes seems to have always been an underdog because supposedly he was also a bastard. He had to fight his brothers and sisters, then eventually fight his own children and I guess maybe his wife.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Nobunaga is sometimes depicted as a literal Demon King.

Yeah in some media he is presented literally as a demon.

In reality it was not so glamorous. The Ikko Ikko sect of Buddhist fundamentalist communist rebels went to war against him. So he started wiping them out everywhere he could find them. The Ikko Ikki were startled at his onslaught so they sent him a letter in which they said he was an evil man and basically the demon king. So he sent them back a letter in which he signed himself as The Demon King to troll them (actually the Dairokuten Ma-O, which translated literally to Sixth Heaven Demon-King from Buddhist literature). The epithet basically stuck and he has often times been referred to as the Demon King. Usually in reference to his tyrannical rule and the mass slaughter which he perpetrated. But the origin of the name was used symbolically, maybe literally (these were psychotic Buddhists after all), by a group of disgruntled Buddhist fanatics.

You have to wonder how Ptolemaic family gatherings worked. You'd have Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Cleopatra, Cleopatra, Berenice, Berenice...

It went something like: "Have you met my aunt? Who is also your mother. Oh and this is my uncle who is also your dad and my dad. This is my daughter who is also your daughter and also your niece, but she is also my niece".

[Roma_Victrix]

Ptolemy XII Auletes seems to have always been an underdog because supposedly he was also a bastard. He had to fight his brothers and sisters, then eventually fight his own children and I guess maybe his wife.

Nobody fought the confounded Ptolemies harder than Ptolemy XII Auletes! At the very least his sister-wife Cleopatra V Tryphaena was estranged shortly after the birth of Cleopatra VII Philopator, since she disappears from records after that. It's quite possible she was the Cleopatra VI who briefly joined Berenice IV's revolt and supported her seizure of the throne when Ptolemy XII Auletes fled Alexandria and went to Rome begging for funds to reinstate him.

It went something like: "Have you met my aunt? Who is also your mother. Oh and this is my uncle who is also your dad and my dad. This is my daughter who is also your daughter and also your niece, but she is also my niece".

The rapper Xzibit walks into the room: "Yo dawg, I heard you like incest..."

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Hard to understand how Cleopatra wasn't mentally or physically retarded.

[Kyriakos]

The disaster at Actium still pales in comparison to other ridiculous defeats of hellenistic sides to Rome, including Pontus and Seleucid Empire :S

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The disaster at Actium still pales in comparison to other ridiculous defeats of hellenistic sides to Rome, including Pontus and Seleucid Empire :S

That is because Actium was severely played up by Augustus for propaganda purposes. As a tactical engagement it wasn't total, the real issue is that Antony's army deserted because they lacked supplies. The battle was symbolic more than anything.

[NorthernXY]

Hard to understand how Cleopatra wasn't mentally or physically retarded.

Yeah, the Habsburgs didn't fair too well with the whole incest thing.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The Hapsburgs were less inbred than the Ptolemies. So I don't understand why the Ptolemies got away with it and the Hapsburgs did not.

[Roma_Victrix]

That is because Actium was severely played up by Augustus for propaganda purposes. As a tactical engagement it wasn't total, the real issue is that Antony's army deserted because they lacked supplies. The battle was symbolic more than anything.

News of the battle had more than symbolic consequences, though. It led to defections of his troops not just in Greece but also allies in North Africa and West Asia. Antony's appointed governor of Cyrene Lucius Pinarius executed his messengers and then sided with Octavian after the debacle at Actium. Herod of Judea traveled to meet Octavian at Rhodes to resign his kingship out of loyalty to Antony, but Octavian was impressed with him and allowed him to keep his throne. This added another ally to Octavian and a loss for Antony. According to Roman historians, things were dire enough after Actium that Cleopatra was secretly planning to leave Egypt for India or Arabia. However, these plans were dashed when Malichus I of the Nabataean kingdom in northern Arabia burned her Ptolemaic naval fleet in the Red Sea on the advice of Quintus Didius, Octavian's Roman governor in Syria.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

News of the battle had more than symbolic consequences, though. It led to defections of his troops not just in Greece but also allies in North Africa and West Asia. Antony's appointed governor of Cyrene Lucius Pinarius executed his messengers and then sided with Octavian after the debacle at Actium. Herod of Judea traveled to meet Octavian at Rhodes to resign his kingship out of loyalty to Antony, but Octavian was impressed with him and allowed him to keep his throne. This added another ally to Octavian and a loss for Antony. According to Roman historians, things were dire enough after Actium that Cleopatra was secretly planning to leave Egypt for India or Arabia. However, these plans were dashed when Malichus I of the Nabataean kingdom in northern Arabia burned her Ptolemaic naval fleet in the Red Sea on the advice of Quintus Didius, Octavian's Roman governor in Syria.

Militarily I mean.

[NorthernXY]

The Hapsburgs were less inbred than the Ptolemies. So I don't understand why the Ptolemies got away with it and the Hapsburgs did not.

By the end of the Austrian line, I think Leopold I and wife were so closely related they had as much DNA in common as a brother and sister. The Habsburg Jaw appeared quite early in their line after they became rulers of the HRE. Maximilian I had rather a weak chin by the paintings I've seen, then two generations later (with a lot of crazy in future Spain) Charles V has the famous chin.

Maybe the Ptolemy wives cuckolded their husbands for hundreds of years.

You see it in the pharaohs of Egypt like Akhenaten who had himself represented perfectly and looked weird (elongated head, extremities) when most of the pharaohs used a lot of heavy filters.

[sumskilz]

The Hapsburgs were less inbred than the Ptolemies. So I don't understand why the Ptolemies got away with it and the Hapsburgs did not.

Potentially because they killed each other a lot. Every person has a random number of de novo mutations. Most of these are neutral, occasionally they are deleterious, only extremely rarely are they adaptive. Often, when a person has a deleterious mutation at a particular locus, it has little or no effect, because it’s simply non-functional, which means the other allele at the same locus either completely, or at least partially, compensates for it. The problem with inbreeding is that it increases the odds of an individual inheriting two copies of the same deleterious mutation. Deleterious mutations are removed from a population through purifying selection, meaning those who are less fit have less offspring. You certainly know the history better than I do, but I get the impression that the ruthless internal politics of the dynasty could have acted as a pretty strong selection pressure.