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Thread: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

  1. #1

    Default Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    Lately, I have been playing with a lot of pike factions, but I find pike relied on armies weak if not useless even against AI instead of hoplite phalanx.


    First of all, I can't seem to find a way to use them offensively, their formation is not reliable.
    Secondly, unless they are the elite of the elite, they route so easily if flanked or rear charged by Cav. In my pontus campaign, I had their medium quality of pikes, and three of my mainline routed because AI accidentally rear charged them with crappy skirmisher cav. They were faced against levy units, probably were winning hard that battle.




    They seem to work only in defensive situations, however;
    I find DeI pikes get out of formation so often, strange positioning... And a unit of elite spears in phalanx formation can actually push the pike phalanx. Like, half of the pike unit stays in place, the other half goes backwards and do strange positioning because the spear phalanx is pushing them and not dying due to high armor. Well, it makes sense since they have huge shields, but it also breaks my idea of creating an unbreakable wall.


    I use Right click or double click depending on the situation, KAM told me that right-clicking once fixing their broken formation, but it doesn't in my case.


    How can I use them effectively?
    Are elite pikes the only ones that are worthy?

  2. #2
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    All phalanx units can push through other phalanx units since this is engine bug still present in new TW games so nothing can fix it. Simply put, there are no collission for infantry units so they can all walk through eachother and since also unit targetting is often weird, when AI gives attack order it looks for enemy units center, hence going sideways through it.

    Unless you use my submod that fully deletes hoplite and pike phalanx from the game (or just one of them), it cant be fixed.

    And answer to your question is that pike units are worth it and outperform hoplites but you cant get them flanked. If you let your pikes get flanked or rear charged, there is something really wrong with your strategy.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; October 15, 2020 at 04:36 AM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by tndgu View Post
    Lately, I have been playing with a lot of pike factions, but I find pike relied on armies weak if not useless even against AI instead of hoplite phalanx.


    First of all, I can't seem to find a way to use them offensively, their formation is not reliable.
    Secondly, unless they are the elite of the elite, they route so easily if flanked or rear charged by Cav. In my pontus campaign, I had their medium quality of pikes, and three of my mainline routed because AI accidentally rear charged them with crappy skirmisher cav. They were faced against levy units, probably were winning hard that battle.




    They seem to work only in defensive situations, however;
    I find DeI pikes get out of formation so often, strange positioning... And a unit of elite spears in phalanx formation can actually push the pike phalanx. Like, half of the pike unit stays in place, the other half goes backwards and do strange positioning because the spear phalanx is pushing them and not dying due to high armor. Well, it makes sense since they have huge shields, but it also breaks my idea of creating an unbreakable wall.


    I use Right click or double click depending on the situation, KAM told me that right-clicking once fixing their broken formation, but it doesn't in my case.


    How can I use them effectively?
    Are elite pikes the only ones that are worthy?
    Hammer and anvil, use them to pin. What I do if the enemy hoplite phalanx starts doing the push through stuff is just move my pike line back so my pikemen arent touching the enemy hoplites, but so they will be in the pikes.

  4. #4
    Landtuber's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    As someone who is in the middle of my first full campaign with a pike faction (Seleucid), Pikes are absolutely worth it if you can keep the enemy in front of them. Assuming equal tech/quality/upgrades, nothing holds a line better than a Pike Phalanx. A low quality Pike unit also does very well versus a high quality sword or spear unit, as long as you keep them in formation.

    A couple tips I've learned as the AI is quite good at flanking the end of your pike front line.
    1. Place the last 1 of your pike units on either end of your line at a 45 degree angle, this prevents the AI from quickly flanking that unit.
    2. If you're using a hammer against your pike anvil (calvary or otherwise), do NOT order your pikes to attack into the enemy - just accept the charge. They kill less this way it's true (from very rough testing in my campaign they cause about 15-20% less casualties), but their lines hold much better and your hammer is going to do the killing. I find they almost never bug out of formation this way even against other pikes or hoplites.
    3. If the AI is attacking you (and they don't have their own pikes that are LONGER than yours), hole up in a corner and stretch your line at a 45 degree angle so that the battle map edges anchor your flanks. This hasn't failed me yet even against superior armies, and has won me many heroic victories - let the enemy tire themselves out while slowly being whittled down and then hopefully you have at least one unit of cavarly or shock infantry to break out with to start working down the line from the rear.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    All phalanx units can push through other phalanx units since this is engine bug still present in new TW games so nothing can fix it. Simply put, there are no collission for infantry units so they can all walk through eachother and since also unit targetting is often weird, when AI gives attack order it looks for enemy units center, hence going sideways through it.

    Unless you use my submod that fully deletes hoplite and pike phalanx from the game (or just one of them), it cant be fixed.

    And answer to your question is that pike units are worth it and outperform hoplites but you cant get them flanked. If you let your pikes get flanked or rear charged, there is something really wrong with your strategy.

    KAM 2150,

    I don't know if you every played FOG2 from Slitherine. Although TBS, it does a nice job of ancient battle mechanics. I think one of my biggest TW issues is units have no real footprint; and only look good on the march. So, TW battles even in DEI degenerate into blobs as opposed broken lines and flanking.

    I am too lazy to reload RTW1 RS3 to test with. Did the BAI engine (of which there were actually three, original/barbarian/alex) also behave as such? A I kind of remember phalanxes being very good holding streets, bridges, etc ...

    The main reason I gave up on RTW1's excellent mods like RS3 or Europa Bababorum was the diplomacy was hosed beyond repair; even when using the forced diplomacy sub mod.

    So, did Rome 1 get footprint and mass right? Thanks all of you, for your time, and this wonderful mod!

  6. #6
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    Phalanaxes are still amazing at holding streets and bridges and will always maintain nice formation if they are not compromised, in which case single click on enemy unit will force them to reform and push enemy back. It just does not work vs other phalanx as it disables for some reason pushback. You can make all units hold perfect formation in Rome 2 by giving them Formed Attack attribute, problem is that it is bugged, especially vs phalanx units (your soldiers will stand in front of phalanx and try to keep formation and not flank it or get too close) and if you have exact same 2 units, one with Formed Attack on and other with Formed Attack off, second one will always win. AI is unable to turn if on/off. When we had it, Romans were easiest faction to beat as phalanx while Barbs, who did not have it, were toughest.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    KAM 2150,

    Your two submods on Steam:

    DeI - Alternative Pike Phalanx

    &

    DeI - Alternative Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    ---

    The two above submods are not mutually exclusive, right? They handle 3 different classes of units, right?

    Also, you began by describing how phalanx vs phalanx combat acts strangely, but phalanx vs sword (without the submod is okay).

    There are two fine things which I want to confirm with you.

    (1) Most factions I can play in any campaign (especially the CA official factions), I am going to see these problematic units as the Greeks had seeded (via Alexander's conquest) this style of warfare across the entire region. So, even if I am Rome, I could end up with AOR or allied stack units (control big army) going up against spear oriented enemies? About the only way I would avoid the issue is staying with factions far in the East where warfare was on horseback.

    (2) I am 70% into my first Rome DEI 2.6x campaign. Can these submods be added or removed without messing up save games? I assume that all your changes were to runtime runtime look ups and not attributes bound at the time of unit recruitment?

    Thank you for this wonderful mod and your patience with noobs!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    Kam,

    I tried using both your mods together in custom battle.

    Now, I played Romans v Macedonia (Antigonids) with and without. Playing both sides on as flat as flat terrain I could get.

    About 3,500 points: Commander mounted, 2 archers, 2 slingers, 4 shock cav, and 11 heavy infantry.

    Definitely, with your mod, it just felt better and more unit integrity and not the usual senseless messes. I know you did it for pikes on both sides, and I haven't tried that yet.

    I just wanted to tell you it felt good.

    Thank you and the team for a fantastic mod!!!

    PS: I am using the slower battle submod.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landtuber View Post
    15-20% less casualties) 3. If the AI is attacking you (and they don't have their own pikes that are LONGER than yours), hole up in a corner and stretch your line at a 45 degree angle so that the battle map edges anchor your flanks. This hasn't failed me yet even against superior armies, and has won me many heroic victories - let the enemy tire themselves out while slowly being whittled down and then hopefully you have at least one unit of cavarly or shock infantry to break out with to start working down the line from the rear.

    Corner camp is the most used cheese tactics in Total War from the beggining of the franchise, make the game very boring I must say and prevent from learning anything resemble to tactics. The battles are easy enough with some practise and basic understand of the units without the cheese.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    Deploying pikes as how Alexander did IRL in Rtw2 actually works fine. No need to corner camping...


    I divide my army into two, heavy phalanx on the right facing the enemy as a reverse "✓" on the front, and heavy infantry on the left but rear. All the heavy cav and missile units on the right of the pike phalanx upfront. The idea is AI will chase my generals and CAV so they will be driven to my Pikes. I cut enemy cav with missile help my infantry can easily win 1v1 on the left. Eventually, I surround the entire enemy army with heavy infantry and cavalry and win heroically any time with any army comp as long as pikes are elite. If pike units are crappy tier they really route so easily.
    Last edited by tndgu; October 23, 2020 at 03:45 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is pike phalanx not worthy anymore?

    I have played Rome vs Macedonia mainly to go legion vs phalanx. I have done it with and without KAM's submods.

    Also, I have played similar battles in FOG2.

    At, least in DEI and FOG2, you don't get this strong sense of Roman legion superiority. Them phalanxes are the "mean machine". Yes, they are vulnerable to flanking, but it is hard to get such opportunities in an even up battle. Phalanx is just brutal.

    ---

    I have been trying stuff on a flat grass map.

    I did try one battle in woods to see if terrain disproportionately affects units like FOG2. It does not. It just slows movement, but not alter outcomes.

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