Let's talk about demons

[Prodromos]

The testimony of credible witnesses is more than sufficient to establish proof beyond reasonable doubt. Dismissing witness accounts as inherently unreliable is utterly ridiculous.



- James Boswell, "Life of Samuel Johnson"

[Gromovnik]

The testimony of credible witnesses is more than sufficient to establish proof beyond reasonable doubt. Dismissing witness accounts as inherently unreliable is utterly ridiculous.



- James Boswell, "Life of Samuel Johnson"

What an absurd claim. Anyway, can we see those "much stronger" evidence that christianity is true? Not the mere existence of a deity, but the proof of christianity being correct in it's theology.

[basics]

What an absurd claim. Anyway, can we see those "much stronger" evidence that christianity is true? Not the mere existence of a deity, but the proof of christianity being correct in it's theology.

Well here's a true story about a Christian woman and her husband and three children. When I first became a born again believer I met Karen the woman and her husband Neil who was not then Christian. Karen was part of the Kinloss Fellowship which the men and women of the RAF had formed on the camp. On a Sunday they would all be found at the Baptist church in Hopeman and held their own fellowship which if memory serves me correct was on a Tuesday evening. Karen's yougest was a lovely little girl called Fiona but she had an eye impediment, her eyes being severely crossed. Her parents had seen many doctors and specialists trying to get this sorted yet to no avail.

Karen being Karen asked the group to lay hands on Fiona that meeting to which I was invited yet declined to go, why? Because being a young Christian I was skeptical about the continuance of healing to my shame. The next day at work, we ran a dry cleaning and laundry business, Neil stuck his head round the entry door and asked if we had heard about Fiona. I asked where she was and he replied outside in her pram so I then told him to bring her in. In doing so he lifted her out of the pram and handed her to me. Her wee face was beaming and her eyes were as straight as a die. Neil had just come up from the doctor's surgery where the doctors and nurses there couldn't believe their eyes, several of them being called in to see Fiona's eyes straightened. His little daughter had been healed by prayer and the laying on of hands and these docs were dumbfounded when told.

Not long after Neil was sent to the Falklands where he had the experience of being born again. Karen was over the moon for now her daughter was cured and her husband saved making her family complete. The shame that my new faith had failed me on that occasion has never left me but I won't make the same mistake again. Since then I have seen many healings among other things all done in the name of Jesus. I can only but tell of these experiences but only God will ever convince you.

[conon394]

How old was Fiona?

[Gromovnik]

Cool story, bro.

[AqD]

@basics if it's a reliable way of treatment, how come Vatican doesn't provide it as a public service? Like, specialized hospitals.

[conon394]

@basics if it's a reliable way of treatment, how come Vatican doesn't provide it as a public service? Like, specialized hospitals.

Papists are not properly reborn.

But the larger problem is cross eyes are not uncommon in newborns as function of differential eye muscle development and often like many other things kids simply grow out of it same for many heart mumurs etc. Obviously it can also result from nerve damage via head trauma or other health issues as well. What we have here is a lack of information.

[basics]

How old was Fiona?

Fiona was about two or three years old. Now I know you'll have a perfectly good argument as is shown in a later post but what you fail to accept that at least a dozen doctors and nurses had tried all their knowledge to rectify Fiona's problem and failed whereas prayer and the laying on of hands had done the trick. When the base closed we lost touch with them as with most of the others, had we not there is no doubt in my mind that Karen and Neil would be only too happy to tell of the frustration where specialists as well as our local doctors could not help Fiona.

AqD,

That I don't know yet did Mother Theresa not try? The thing is that in churches of the born again prayer meetings are a regular occurrence healing being part of their prayers.

[Gromovnik]

@basics if it's a reliable way of treatment, how come Vatican doesn't provide it as a public service? Like, specialized hospitals.

Oh, now you're gonna hear it...

[conon394]

Now I know you'll have a perfectly good argument

Of course I do. Cross Eyes are not uncommon in children. As long as we a talking differential muscle development and not a head injury/nerve damage, spontaneous recovery is not unusual. Most treatments would not be radical but just trying to encourage that process.


So if we are trading stories. I was born with a Heart Murmur. No doubt because I was also born at the micro premature stage (*). Now this was annoying because at the time being on my record schools occasionally got worried that I should be banned from sports and dentists were always making me take antibiotics for routine dental work. My family doctor thought that was silly and signed waivers and was convinced it was getting harder to hear as I grew. What do you know when I was 30 and had decent medical insurance I had my doctor order scan (cant remember the type) and in fact it was gone simply grew out of it.

(*) I should note early enough to more or less be DOA in past times.

When the base closed we lost touch with them as with most of the others, had we not there is no doubt in my mind that Karen and Neil would be only too happy to tell of the frustration where specialists as well as our local doctors could not help Fiona.

Thus my point frustration by whom parents that there probably no insta treatment or actual frustration by the professionals who likely pointed out treatment would not be dramatic surgery but a process. I assume you did not rush out take notes from the other side of this equation?

[basics]

conon394,

Well knowing some of the doctors in question and having conversations with them and still do I have no doubts as to their capabilities as doctors so it was no surprise to me when Neil said that the one he saw asked for others to see Fiona thus the room being crowded with doctors and nurses amazed on hearing how it happened.

[Gromovnik]

And those doctors were called Albert Einstein. All of them. And everyone clapped.

[basics]

And those doctors were called Albert Einstein. All of them. And everyone clapped.

Gromovnik,

No, they were just doctors with experience of treating illnesses sometimes winning and sometimes not. What was before them that day was a little girl that they nor any specialist could cure. The thing is that they were over the moon that she was cured although the process was not their usual way of doing things. I am quite sure Albert Einstein would have been equally impressed had he been there.

[conon394]

Yet basics your story lacks specifics. What treatments. If the child 2 (again you are vague) radical treatment would not be par from the course but gradual ones. The condition is one you can just grow out of. Was it nerve related or not. At 17 I can see Doctors being frustrated, but not at 2. No more than the doctors who treated my father lazy eye. Gradual treatment and responded well plateaued and than a growth spurt resulted in him being fine better than 20/20 vision.

Again like your Nimrod story there is a decided lack of all the potential facts and a focus on one thing and not all the other variables involved.

[Prodromos]

Miracle deniers be like

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[basics]

conon394,

I held Fiona just after Neil had come up from the doctor's surgery to tell us of what had happened. In both Scotland and England Karen and Neil had seen various doctors and specialists in the hope of seeing their beautiful baby girl cured but it hadn't happened until the night members of the Christian Fellowship at RAF Kinloss laid hands on her and prayed for her healing. Now you'll just have to accept that or not yet it is perfectly true.

Concerning the Nimrod story you'll have to read Hyslop's Two Babylons. Funny you brought that up because I have another Nimrod story which you won't believe yet also true.

[conon394]

I mention the nimrod because you have used the aircraft story and again is vague story turned into the power of god. But let's table the personal stories. You know I am skeptical and I know you believe and since neither of us is ever likely or want to provide massive detailed accounts and affidavits on web forum - its beyond doubtful that our positions will be altered an iota. Criticizing your stories only leads me down the path of potentially being rude.

Concerning the Nimrod story you'll have to read Hyslop's Two Babylons. Funny you brought that up because I have another Nimrod story which you won't believe yet also true.

However I no problem with being rude to Mr Hislop

Its a silly anti catholic screed based very poor to outdated scholarship at best of the day. At worst its amounts feaver dream of fabrication and distortions with poor logic. The man's analysis of say Minerva and Athenian is laughably bad, using cringe worthy entomology (although it does not rise to deserve that title). He has no real grasp of the ancient and classical religions he mutilates in absurd linkages. Just makes stuff up. and is writing basically has I said a screed with an intended purpose was not any honest analysis. Your really should be careful of citing works that are approaching being 2 centuries old unless thay are a primary source. Or reading reading them credulously.

[basics]

conon394,

Well calling into question the words of the pilot, the navigator and the flight engineer is only what I expect of you since you dispute everything I write. Although I heard from three members there were fourteen in that crew and they all were aware of what happened according to the flight engineer.

Concerning Hislop I didn't agree with his assertion that Rome is the anti-Christ of Revelation although I do believe that it is an anti-Christ. There is no doubt that Nimrod was the first anti-Christ and that from him being deified led to other religions springing up with twisted and outragious versions of the Gospel that Noah brought over from the old world that was. But I suppose you being there will know better than anyone else just as you know everything about us you being there also. If one doesn't receive the gospel of conon394 in its entirety we are doomed to hell.

[conon394]

Well calling into question the words of the pilot, the navigator and the flight engineer is only what I expect of you since you dispute everything I write. Although I heard from three members there were fourteen in that crew and they all were aware of what happened according to the flight engineer.

I was as you noticed trying to avoid these kind of stories. They don't really serve any purpose. Given the information you can impart, and the stuff should not on the internet. I will be suspect as you say. As I said my reply's to them will seem as you note even obstinate, but may also appear rude. Again can we table them.

But one last thing you forgot the navigator there are 4 flight crew. One would really have to listen to flight recorders and see the flight data. I am sure the gentlemen were not doing nothing while plane suffered a power outage was it? Also you need to likely be a pilot and or an engineer familiar with the particular model. Its quite possible in a complex system that men were performing emergency functions they do not normally perfor or only ever on a simulator and might not have a sense of how they will play out. But again simply based on your story, I do not have the ability to do the research the Catholic church would before it declares a miracle. I can accept how you see the story and accept how it was relayed to you but I have no real data to judge that.

My intent is not to be dispute to be annoying but simply to point out in complex systems like either people or planes with proper data I always likely seem doomed to reject your stories becuse I don't statr from a frame

Concerning Hislop I didn't agree with his assertion that Rome is the anti-Christ of Revelation although I do believe that it is an anti-Christ. There is no doubt that Nimrod was the first anti-Christ and that from him being deified led to other religions springing up with twisted and outragious versions of the Gospel that Noah brought over from the old world that was. But I suppose you being there will know better than anyone else just as you know everything about us you being there also. If one doesn't receive the gospel of conon394 in its entirety we are doomed to hell.

Err What I know is Hislop is a pile of really bad pseudo scholarship, poor logic and made up stuff. His etymological linkages would not pass a 100 level course. His grasp of Mesopotamian or Classical religions is poor to non existent. He makes up stuff out of whole cloth where it suits him. His best citations are almost 200 years out of date.

I doom nobody to hell but were you a student and I a TA and if your citation list only used Hislop I would likely doom you to a long explanation about why you got an F. That is for anything beside the history of anti papist writings in the the English language.

[basics]

conon394,

After Dave prayed out that Jesus made the plane, that He could fix the problem, this was not unusual for his crew to know about him. During that time everyone expected him to ditch in the Moray Firth and were quite relieved when the systems all came back on. They circled the base, the control tower being kept informed, for some time until it was decided that they could proceed with their mission which they did successfully.

Concerning Hislop's work on his book a lot of research went into it for he didn't just make it all up. My only disagreement wiith it was that he saw Rome as the ant-Christ who would appear at the end of time setting the scene for Jesus' return. My own thoughts on that were if there were to be a one world church system under the anti-Christ that person would have to be Jewish, why? Because the Jews would never get involved unless he was a Jew. So, if I were a student and you were my judge, I would very quickly change colleges seeing how you have to be believed or else.