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Thread: Let's talk about demons

  1. #41
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Going all the way back to the fall of man men have known of the promised " seed "
    Again that is strained interpretation of the OT based one what the authors of the NT claim. Read without the NT the 'seed' does not imply JC.

    Every religion that sprouted up knew of that and used it to create their own versions
    Err not true.

    The Gospel began with that prophecy and it remains intact to this day by the fulfilling of it in Jesus Christ. So, when Paul visited your friends in Greece he remarked to them that they worshipped many gods but that they missed out on the real One which they named the unknown God.

    The author of Acts is playing a game. A sophism quite worthy of his location. The alter if it existed at all (where the dramatic action of the texts place) was to unknown gods. A fair bet is it was (if extent) meant to placate the Erinyes and probably also more generally to acknowledge the small local gods that were bound to things springs and such across the land that Athens ruled (to be on the the asparagus hill would have to been to the oldest gods of Athens). More firmly according to Pausanias There were multiple shrines to unknown plural gods in the harbor at Phaleron. But dedicated randomly to heroes, other gods (plural) unknown gods (plural) the Children Theseus, etc. Another again plural shine is noted by Hesychios at Athens arising out of some mythical incident after the Trojan war that involved killing on Athenian soil and so a shine was set to deflect responsibility. (Athenians killed their former allies in the War or some such possibly with shady justifications).

    Its a nice passage you cite however that even has no more than a Roman university town Athens retained its open mindedness. But there was simply no single one unknown god (male at that). But this is similar to the seed reference very cleaver people bending data to the will of the NT. Be it the OT, or in this a pleasant little passage about famous Athens and it supposedly have been waiting about for one unknown god. Too bad the christian emperors of later days and their bishops could not show the same courtesy to the academies at Athens or fail to pillage its temples as it showed Paul.

    Shines to other gods are found and do seem to have been a thing in the heterogeneous Hellenist Greek world.

    As long as you remain in your sin you are evil. There's no use saying, " but I am a good person," when it is written that there is none good, only God and that's why God in Jesus Christ came into the world
    Still represents than a capricious god for at first damning the whole world for the acts of two people and than only allowing salvation in a scatter shot way that implicitly meant thousands would live and die with out an opportunity to get the message.

    Someone may be able to pay for our sin in His own blood. Yes, blood that was never tainted by sin, therefore the only blood that could satisfy the demands of the Law.
    So no particular reason Jesus could not have shown up being born from Eve and this over with at the beginning. Or been one of Lots kid's or Noah's and been persecuted than?
    Last edited by conon394; October 30, 2020 at 10:33 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #42
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    conon394,

    The " seed " spoken of by God is not something made up by the writers of the new Testament, rather authenticated by them from what was written by the Prophets of the Old Testament. From what transpired by Jesus at the cross how can there be any doubt that the Prophets described in detail what would happen to Him many centuries before. These prophecies were proved beyond doubt that the promised " seed " was Jesus Christ, His crucifixion and resurrection testifying to that.

    When Nimrod was deified by Cush and Semiramis that was the first religion that came onto the eath's scene. It was a corruption of God's prophecy about the " seed " and was followed on by many other peoples who invented their own versions. How that happened was when God separated mankind in speech and the land they were to settle.

    Paul clearly saw that they had room among their many gods for an unknown one, giving him the opportunity to preach the Gospel after which he writes that some of the Greeks were converted to Christianity.

    If people could make up their own version of God's " seed " then it is impossible that they did not know about Adam and Eve's fall into sin. Perhaps you miss the point that God made all things including us humans for His good pleasure and part of our story is what He intended for that story. In other words the story is all about God, not us, and Him coming among us to fulfill an end that is satisfying to Him. You are not God, just another part of His creation but as you and I don't know who will be saved and who will not, what right have you to question Him when He has made from the beginning a pathway to salvation. That Pathway is Jesus Christ our God and Saviour for there is no other.

    If Jesus Christ had been born of Eve there wouldn't be a story to tell. Indeed how many of us would have ever been born had it happened your way? But, just a reminder Who was it that walked and talked with Adam in the garden? It could have only been Jesus as His father is a blinding Spirit upon Whom no man may look without dying immediately. So, ole fella, Jesus was there just as John tells us making not just one appearance in the Old Testament. Did He not appear in the lion's den, appear as Melchizadec, appear to wrestle with Jacob, appear to King David who saw Him talking to His Father, all in the Old Testament?

  3. #43
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    When Nimrod was deified by Cush and Semiramis that was the first religion that came onto the eath's scene. It was a corruption of God's prophecy about the " seed " and was followed on by many other peoples who invented their own versions. How that happened was when God separated mankind in speech and the land they were to settle.
    Your using that tripe from the 1800s again are you?

    The " seed " spoken of by God is not something made up by the writers of the new Testament, rather authenticated by them from what was written by the Prophets of the Old Testament. From what transpired by Jesus at the cross how can there be any doubt that the Prophets described in detail what would happen to Him many centuries before. These prophecies were proved beyond doubt that the promised " seed " was Jesus Christ, His crucifixion and resurrection testifying to that.
    Which exact passages from the OT. They when read alone and in context to imply Jesus.

    If Jesus Christ had been born of Eve there wouldn't be a story to tell. Indeed how many of us would have ever been born had it happened your way? But, just a reminder Who was it that walked and talked with Adam in the garden? It could have only been Jesus as His father is a blinding Spirit upon Whom no man may look without dying immediately. So, ole fella, Jesus was there just as John tells us making not just one appearance in the Old Testament. Did He not appear in the lion's den, appear as Melchizadec, appear to wrestle with Jacob, appear to King David who saw Him talking to His Father, all in the Old Testament?
    Somewhat circular logic. Of course again it depends on the NT back fit to the OT. Also you seem to dodging the made in our image thing.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #44
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    conon394,

    Try this lot for size,

    47 Old Testament Verses About Jesus as Messiah
    Prophecies of Jesus Old Testament
    Scripture New Testament
    Fulfillment
    1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
    Galatians 4:4
    2 Messiah would be born in
    Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
    Luke 2:4-6
    3 Messiah would be
    born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
    Luke 1:26-31
    4 Messiah would come from the line of
    Abraham. Genesis 12:3
    Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1
    Romans 9:5
    5 Messiah would be a descendant of
    Isaac. Genesis 17:19
    Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
    6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
    7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
    Hebrews 7:14
    8 Messiah would be heir to
    King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
    Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33
    Romans 1:3
    9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
    Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33
    Hebrews 1:8-12
    10 Messiah would be called
    Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
    11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
    12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
    13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah. Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
    14 Messiah would be preceded by a forerunner. Malachi 3:1 Matthew 11:10
    15 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
    Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11
    John 7:5
    16 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
    17 Messiah would be preceded by
    Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
    18 Messiah would be declared the
    Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
    19 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
    20 Messiah would bring light to
    Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
    21 Messiah would speak in
    parables. Psalm 78:2-4
    Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
    22 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
    23 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
    24 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6
    Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37
    Mark 11:7-11
    25 Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 21:4-5
    26 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
    27 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
    Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
    Matthew 26:14-16
    28 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
    29 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
    30 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
    31 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
    32 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19
    Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
    33 Messiah would be
    crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
    Mark 15:27-28
    34 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
    John 19:28-30
    35 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16
    Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
    36 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
    37 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34
    Matthew 27:35-36
    38 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46
    Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
    39 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
    40 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
    41 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
    42 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
    43 Messiah would
    resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10
    Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7
    Acts 2:22-32
    44 Messiah would
    ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19
    Luke 24:51
    45 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18
    Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
    Matthew 22:44
    46 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8
    47 Messiah would return a second time. Daniel 7:13-14 Revelation 19

    These and many other Old Testament verses about Israel's Messiah were fulfilled in the New Testament life of Jesus Christ. Collectively they form the leading proof of Christ's deity. As Jesus went about his ministry, he knew that he was fulfilling these prophecies.

    As for the tripe you talk of perhaps you should try reading the Two Babylons by Hislop.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Try this lot for size,

    47 Old Testament Verses About Jesus as Messiah
    Prophecies of Jesus Old Testament
    Scripture New Testament
    Fulfillment
    1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
    Galatians 4:4
    2 Messiah would be born in
    Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
    Luke 2:4-6
    3 Messiah would be
    born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
    Luke 1:26-31
    4 Messiah would come from the line of
    Abraham. Genesis 12:3
    Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1
    Romans 9:5
    5 Messiah would be a descendant of
    Isaac. Genesis 17:19
    Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
    6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
    7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
    Hebrews 7:14
    8 Messiah would be heir to
    King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
    Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33
    Romans 1:3
    9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
    Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33
    Hebrews 1:8-12
    10 Messiah would be called
    Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
    11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
    12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
    13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah. Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
    14 Messiah would be preceded by a forerunner. Malachi 3:1 Matthew 11:10
    15 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
    Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11
    John 7:5
    16 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
    17 Messiah would be preceded by
    Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
    18 Messiah would be declared the
    Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
    19 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
    20 Messiah would bring light to
    Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
    21 Messiah would speak in
    parables. Psalm 78:2-4
    Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
    22 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
    23 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
    24 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6
    Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37
    Mark 11:7-11
    25 Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 21:4-5
    26 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
    27 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
    Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
    Matthew 26:14-16
    28 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
    29 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
    30 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
    31 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
    32 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19
    Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
    33 Messiah would be
    crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
    Mark 15:27-28
    34 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
    John 19:28-30
    35 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16
    Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
    36 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
    37 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34
    Matthew 27:35-36
    38 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46
    Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
    39 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
    40 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
    41 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
    42 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
    43 Messiah would
    resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10
    Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7
    Acts 2:22-32
    44 Messiah would
    ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19
    Luke 24:51
    45 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18
    Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
    Matthew 22:44
    46 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8
    47 Messiah would return a second time. Daniel 7:13-14 Revelation 19

    These and many other Old Testament verses about Israel's Messiah were fulfilled in the New Testament life of Jesus Christ. Collectively they form the leading proof of Christ's deity. As Jesus went about his ministry, he knew that he was fulfilling these prophecies.

    As for the tripe you talk of perhaps you should try reading the Two Babylons by Hislop.
    Some of those criteria are vague and general (being born of a woman), some are simply not true, and the third part are things that would've been known to everyone with knowledge of Jewish scripture.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  6. #46
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Gromovnik,

    From the fall of Adam and Eve their offspring would have known about the coming " seed " prophesied by God even before Moses was given the task of putting it all into writing and for the Jews as they became, to carry that writing for the benefit of all mankind. So yes, prophecy was vague for it could be seen in two parts even then. The first part being the immediacy of a prophecy or the distant future of one, the point being that in the list of the above fortyseven all have been fulfilled to date. The promised " seed " or as the Jews called Him, Messias, would naturally be born of a woman but the supernatural aspect of the prophecy was that although born as a man He in fact was God taking up union with a woman to be a man. There was nothing natural about His conception because He already pre-existed yet supernaturally He joined to and fertilised an egg belonging to Mary His mother to be. The prophets told of this long before it actually happened. So, please indulge me by telling me what is not true?

  7. #47
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    From the fall of Adam and Eve their offspring would have known about the coming " seed " prophesied by God even before Moses was given the task of putting it all into writing and for the Jews as they became, to carry that writing for the benefit of all mankind
    Only with a willful misreading of the plain text in the original language. Your insistence here is forced based on using the NT to alter the more general meaning of the OT.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gromovnik,

    From the fall of Adam and Eve their offspring would have known about the coming " seed " prophesied by God even before Moses was given the task of putting it all into writing and for the Jews as they became, to carry that writing for the benefit of all mankind. So yes, prophecy was vague for it could be seen in two parts even then. The first part being the immediacy of a prophecy or the distant future of one, the point being that in the list of the above fortyseven all have been fulfilled to date. The promised " seed " or as the Jews called Him, Messias, would naturally be born of a woman but the supernatural aspect of the prophecy was that although born as a man He in fact was God taking up union with a woman to be a man. There was nothing natural about His conception because He already pre-existed yet supernaturally He joined to and fertilised an egg belonging to Mary His mother to be. The prophets told of this long before it actually happened. So, please indulge me by telling me what is not true?
    Well, probably none of it is true. Since, you know, there is no proof for any of that stuff.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  9. #49
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Only with a willful misreading of the plain text in the original language. Your insistence here is forced based on using the NT to alter the more general meaning of the OT.
    conon394,

    Well ask a Jew what the Old Covenant is about? Tey'll tell you that it is about a Messias coming to restore Israel to its former position that David built. In other words an Empire but alas the prophecies tell of a quite different Person and Empire. That a " seed " will come to contend with Satan is not forced language, rather what is written, the reason that most Jews get it wrong.

    Gromovnik,

    Oh but there is my friend as one can see by the number of people all across the world who have been converted down through the years. Messias came in the form of Jesus Christ, died and rose again and will come back to finalise all things.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gromovnik,

    Oh but there is my friend as one can see by the number of people all across the world who have been converted down through the years. Messias came in the form of Jesus Christ, died and rose again and will come back to finalise all things.
    How is that a proof?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  11. #51
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    How is that a proof?
    Gromovnik,

    Because the Jews have this habit of keeping ancestral knowledge very close, especially the very religious ones. It is the reason that Jesus ancestry could be traced all the way back beyond David to Adam by both Joseph and Mary's ancestry. Mary had the stronger claim because in Joseph's lineage there was a break because of a curse placed on one or two of his ancestors. Indeed Gibbons in his " Decline and Fall...." records that Jude's grandsons were arrested by the Romans because they were in direct line to the throne of Israel which gave the Romans cause for concern. After interrogating them the Roman ruler let them go seeing that these men were no threat at all to Rome. Jude by the way was Jesus' brother.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gromovnik,

    Because the Jews have this habit of keeping ancestral knowledge very close, especially the very religious ones. It is the reason that Jesus ancestry could be traced all the way back beyond David to Adam by both Joseph and Mary's ancestry. Mary had the stronger claim because in Joseph's lineage there was a break because of a curse placed on one or two of his ancestors. Indeed Gibbons in his " Decline and Fall...." records that Jude's grandsons were arrested by the Romans because they were in direct line to the throne of Israel which gave the Romans cause for concern. After interrogating them the Roman ruler let them go seeing that these men were no threat at all to Rome. Jude by the way was Jesus' brother.
    But even if we take this at face value, this is still not a proof that Jesus is the Messiah.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    But even if we take this at face value, this is still not a proof that Jesus is the Messiah.
    Gromovnik,

    Well, when Jesus stood before Thomas in my words He asked him to touch the wounds made by the nails on His body and as soon as Thomas did that he fell on his face crying out, " My Lord and my God." Another incident was when the lawyer Saul, oh yes he was an expert in the Law, was put on his knees and asked by Jesus, " Why do you persecute Me so? " Being the chief persecutor of the church this was amazing by any standards and the outcome as we can read was that Saul became Paul the Apostle to both Jew and Gentile. There is no other person who could have qualified to be Messias other than Jesus Christ.

  14. #54
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Because the Jews have this habit of keeping ancestral knowledge very close, especially the very religious ones. It is the reason that Jesus ancestry could be traced all the way back beyond David to Adam by both Joseph and Mary's ancestry. Mary had the stronger claim because in Joseph's lineage there was a break because of a curse placed on one or two of his ancestors. Indeed Gibbons in his " Decline and Fall...." records that Jude's grandsons were arrested by the Romans because they were in direct line to the throne of Israel which gave the Romans cause for concern. After interrogating them the Roman ruler let them go seeing that these men were no threat at all to Rome. Jude by the way was Jesus' brother.
    Err I take it you every believe other mythological background claim for every other society?

    Indeed Gibbons in his " Decline and Fall...." records that Jude's grandsons were arrested by the Romans because they were in direct line to the throne of Israel which gave the Romans cause for concern. After interrogating them the Roman ruler let them go seeing that these men were no threat at all to Rome. Jude by the way was Jesus' brother.
    You got his source for that? I mean Its a big book could reference his citation and name toss.

    It surprising how some of your history sources seem to stop 100-300 years ago.

    Well ask a Jew what the Old Covenant is about? Tey'll tell you that it is about a Messias coming to restore Israel to its former position that David built. In other words an Empire but alas the prophecies tell of a quite different Person and Empire. That a " seed " will come to contend with Satan is not forced language, rather what is written, the reason that most Jews get it wrong.
    My point is A seed is a forced misrepresentation of the clear meaning of progeny as plural understanding.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #55
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Err I take it you every believe other mythological background claim for every other society?

    You got his source for that? I mean Its a big book could reference his citation and name toss.

    It surprising how some of your history sources seem to stop 100-300 years ago.

    My point is A seed is a forced misrepresentation of the clear meaning of progeny as plural understanding.
    conon394,

    No, I don't believe in mythological accounts of anything but I do understand how and why these mythologies occurred. Jesus Christ was not a myth in any shape or form.

    I have the Decline and Fall on my bookshelves. Gibbon when he wrote the thing was not a Christian so he had no reason for any bias.

    Now that's a strange thing to say as my Bible, particularly the Old Covenant goes back to our very beginnings.

    Genesis 3:15 states, " And I will pit enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed ; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel." Please notice that the words " it " and " thou " are singular. They depict certain persons which came to pass at Calvary's cross just as the prophets foretold.

  16. #56
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    No, I don't believe in mythological accounts of anything but I do understand how and why these mythologies occurred. Jesus Christ was not a myth in any shape or form.
    SO you only believe one peoples unsubstantiated citation of their mythological heritage. Fine.

    I have the Decline and Fall on my bookshelves. Gibbon when he wrote the thing was not a Christian so he had no reason for any bias.
    What I asked was where in his book does he make that assertion its simple enough and on what evidence. I could care if you think he was christian or not.

    Now that's a strange thing to say as my Bible, particularly the Old Covenant goes back to our very beginnings.
    Only if you believe it, so do other peoples and thay remain creation myths.

    Genesis 3:15 states, " And I will pit enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed ; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel." Please notice that the words " it " and " thou " are singular. They depict certain persons which came to pass at Calvary's cross just as the prophets foretold
    Now you quote something but not the source of your translation. The word as used in the original language is very much a plural understanding of descendants - many. Even Calvin made that point.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #57
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    conon394,

    In chapter 16 titled the " Oppression of the Jews and Christians under Domitian from verses 47 through to 50 tells of that incident. I get the wording from my KJV. chapter 3 verse 15. Jesus Christ was not a myth.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gromovnik,

    Well, when Jesus stood before Thomas in my words He asked him to touch the wounds made by the nails on His body and as soon as Thomas did that he fell on his face crying out, " My Lord and my God." Another incident was when the lawyer Saul, oh yes he was an expert in the Law, was put on his knees and asked by Jesus, " Why do you persecute Me so? " Being the chief persecutor of the church this was amazing by any standards and the outcome as we can read was that Saul became Paul the Apostle to both Jew and Gentile. There is no other person who could have qualified to be Messias other than Jesus Christ.
    Anything less circular?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    Anything less circular?
    Gromovnik,

    What would that take?

  20. #60

    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Not using the Bible as proof that the Bible is true.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

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