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Thread: Let's talk about demons

  1. #81
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Concerning Hislop's work on his book a lot of research went into it for he didn't just make it all up
    Sorry he does in fact make things with some regularity. Last you cited the work I worked out a couple examples of a steaming mess his logical falsies are but... I lost a HDD and while I think I have a cloud back up but rural Idaho have crap internet even at top tier expense I can't restore until I sure the usage would piss of the family. For example on my wife's work from days now all but one day its verboten to be a bandwidth hog and her analysis needs over night connectivity to work so... time permitting I will try demonstrate what his his work is.

    So, if I were a student and you were my judge, I would very quickly change colleges seeing how you have to be believed or else.
    Which would still not change that fact that when you leave the Bible belief is no longer an accepted method of sourcing things. You can Believe the Bible (that is the point) .. But Hislop is I am sorry to say deeply outdated and a poorly constructed polemical work. Its history and methodology is flawed. The logic is flawed the connections asserted between names and other etymologies is flawed. You have a bad habit of latching to old texts like thay are in fact mini bibles. If I was going the argue the meaning of a Greek word I would not in fact use the Handwörterbuch der griechischen Sprache published in the early 1800s but the Liddell–Scott–Jones from 1940 and its various supplements and errata up to the present. It is very much important to consider a work 200 years old or more of just how very limited access to such tools was to the people writing at the time.
    Liddell–Scott–Jones
    Last edited by conon394; November 17, 2020 at 01:51 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #82
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Let's talk about demons

    Like other people said, "daimon" in greek is not the same as what the word got used for in christianity. And like Conon said, kakodaimons only became a notion in the era of gnostic religions (which were a mystical hybrid of ancient greek philosophy and "christiany" - in a very general sense - stuff).
    Socrates famously spoke of his "daimon" who urged him to do things, like learn music. And like Morticia said, the pre-gnostic era daimons were basically lesser gods, which is why one of the accusations in the trial of Socrates was that he "introduces new daimons" (kaina daimonia).

    The Erinyes , aka "Zeus's winged dogs", can be seen as a type of what now is identified as demon. They were sent by the gods to punish anyone who committed hubris, and according to a nice aphorism by Heraklitos: "Not even the Sun can exceed what was allotted to him, for if he does then the Erinyes will find him and see that he faces trial".
    The three Gorgones (two of which were immortal; the third one was killed by Perseas) also look like demons in their vase depictions. While the Erinyes at times have nice-looking female forms, and at others are nightmarish, the two immortal Gorgones look like a strange ant in most depictions, and bearded horrible old women in others.
    Although they aren't really interested in dealing with humans, and not even the gods can stand to look at them - much like with other monsters, like the Scylla, the "immortal evil".
    Last edited by pacifism; November 17, 2020 at 11:51 PM. Reason: double posts merged
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  3. #83
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    conon394,

    The main problem you unbelievers have is that your logic stems from your mind which is bound by sin whereas the likes of Hislop is dealing with Spiritual matters that you are blinded to. From Genesis we learn about demons in the work of Satan whom God handed you over to, so it's not a Greek thing or any other thing invented in later times. No, it's just your way of dealing with your situation before God.

  4. #84
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Basics, where is the term "demon" used in the OT? Just cause you make a personal connection cause you feel like it, doesn't mean it is worthy of mentioning to others.
    Anyway, the etymology of the term "demon" is known, as is the brief history of how it got usurped (and altered) by christianity. Maybe if you weren't keen on identifying every bit of scientific info presented as an attack to your faith, you would have had no issue with something as anodyne as this.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #85
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Basics, where is the term "demon" used in the OT? Just cause you make a personal connection cause you feel like it, doesn't mean it is worthy of mentioning to others.
    Anyway, the etymology of the term "demon" is known, as is the brief history of how it got usurped (and altered) by christianity. Maybe if you weren't keen on identifying every bit of scientific info presented as an attack to your faith, you would have had no issue with something as anodyne as this.
    Kyriakos,

    Well, in the Old Covenant God handed the world over to sin whose master is Satan. It wasn't until Jesus' time that they were called demons or evil spirits yet in the Old Testament God told the people to deter from contacting the spirits, why? Because many were evil beings under Satan's control. Jesus made no bones about meeting and casting out demons or evil spirits. There's no science about this. It is what is written witnessed by His followers. The problem you're having is fitting medievil assumptions to something that began many thousands of years before in the garden when Adam and Eve fell. You cannot disconnect this because some Greeks accused the Christians of inventing evil and its spirits. They were the people who invented so many gods that Paul had to put them right about what they were following and the Real God. No my friend, follow what God has declared to be His word from Genesis all through to the Revelation of Jesus Christ and you can't go wrong.

  6. #86
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    You aren't following what is being discussed here. We were talking about the term "demon", not the general idea of an "evil spirit". Obviously no one claimed the ancient jews couldn't think of something as backward as "evil spirits"; what was claimed is that the term "demon" originally meant a lesser deity and/or a psychological trait.
    Also, please don't preach here; I am doing my best to not respond to preaching, cause it is personal belief and doesn't lend itself to discussion with others.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #87
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Like other people said, "daimon" in greek is not the same as what the word got used for in christianity. And like Conon said, kakodaimons only became a notion in the era of gnostic religions (which were a mystical hybrid of ancient greek philosophy and "christiany" - in a very general sense - stuff).
    Socrates famously spoke of his "daimon" who urged him to do things, like learn music. And like Morticia said, the pre-gnostic era daimons were basically lesser gods, which is why one of the accusations in the trial of Socrates was that he "introduces new daimons" (kaina daimonia).

    The Erinyes , aka "Zeus's winged dogs", can be seen as a type of what now is identified as demon. They were sent by the gods to punish anyone who committed hubris, and according to a nice aphorism by Heraklitos: "Not even the Sun can exceed what was allotted to him, for if he does then the Erinyes will find him and see that he faces trial".
    The three Gorgones (two of which were immortal; the third one was killed by Perseas) also look like demons in their vase depictions. While the Erinyes at times have nice-looking female forms, and at others are nightmarish, the two immortal Gorgones look like a strange ant in most depictions, and bearded horrible old women in others.
    Although they aren't really interested in dealing with humans, and not even the gods can stand to look at them - much like with other monsters, like the Scylla, the "immortal evil".
    I not sure demons work in the classical Greek world pre as you note the rise of duelist mystery religions. From a legal perspective the Erinyes are not capriciously evil. They are the personification of legal justice divorced from the justice in equity.

    They thus seem then unrelenting and absolute. And in effect that is what Aeschylus provides his Athenian jury decides to sit in Equity not Law.

    Realistically the Greeks did not need demons their gods were capricious enough. They were ones who made everyone think Cassandra was insane babbling of bizarre futures, made Hercules mad enough to kill his family, let Achilles pray to have a whole bunch of his mates killed...

    Once you decide there is a singular god (he/she/it) that is righteous and good absolutely and challenged by a opposite evil opponent. Than you need demons. Since any act of the good god must be good no matter the results you need some agent to ascribe bad things to you can't otherwise explain. Since you decided the good god had intermediaries it only makes sense his opponent would.
    Last edited by conon394; November 24, 2020 at 08:52 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #88
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Let's talk about demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    You aren't following what is being discussed here. We were talking about the term "demon", not the general idea of an "evil spirit". Obviously no one claimed the ancient jews couldn't think of something as backward as "evil spirits"; what was claimed is that the term "demon" originally meant a lesser deity and/or a psychological trait.
    Also, please don't preach here; I am doing my best to not respond to preaching, cause it is personal belief and doesn't lend itself to discussion with others.
    Kyriakos,

    Anything that detracts from God's position of being the Only God is evil and so even if your explanation for demon holds any sway it is evil in the eyes of God. So, if I am preaching I make no apologies for that.

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