Let's talk about demons

[AqD]

been watching the Exorcist show. The Christian demons are hardly scary, nevertheless it's very interesting that all those demon stories across the world share similar traits:

- There are demons or unclean spirits. No religion seems to deny that.
- Their voice frequency is low. Why not high?
- They have superhuman strength or some special capabilities. Why not weak? Or unable to walk or lift arms?
- Yet all their actions are driven by basic desires and emotions. You could easily tell they have no long term goals and no intelligence whatsoever, like a baby.
- Another common trait is scratching with sharp fingernails: that's quite animal like. Do humans do this under extreme situations?

So they're in control, they have superpower but always act retarded? Why?

I wouldn't consider those stories false. If something is just made up, it's unlikely to have re-occurrences with similar characteristics. But there should be some explanations and calling them mentally illness doesn't help uncover the truth.

[swabian]

I suspect, it's an attempt at externalizing extremely antisocial human traits. I'm probably armchair-psychologizing this, though. Whatever.

A demon represents basically everything undesirable and fearsome about humans. I mean, they are fearsome, if you have a closer look; you will find that some of them are capable of atrocities which are often described as "inhuman", even though it is actually very human. Because it is only humans who do this and who are affected by it.

Therefore, i would say a "demon" represents the "inhuman" aspects of humans in an attempt to banish them as a coping mechanism. It's an expression of how profoundly social creatures humans actually are. They cannot really cope with the extreme outlaws among them, so they advance an ulterior explanation, instead of accepting that this is unfortunately very human and not supernatural.

[Cyclops]

In Hellenic thoughts Daimons could be agatho- or caco-. There's also the notion of the presiding genius of a person's life.

The "evil angel tribe" in Avestan and Vedic thoughts seem to be a mirror image of the "good angel tribe", essentially supernatural lords: as with the Bible's angels (heavenly and presumably fallen) they can be scary or human-like.

The Bible shows a variety of images of demons ranging from fallen angels to talking pigs: pretty sure the pitch of their voices is not mentioned. AFAIK demons in the Bible don't scratch.

I'm pretty sure Islamic notions of mental illness have other interpretations than demonic possession.

[swabian]

Most importantly: demons don't exist. It's all about humans hurting other humans for some reason or another.

[Common Soldier]

been watching the Exorcist show. The Christian demons are hardly scary, nevertheless it's very interesting that all those demon stories across the world share similar traits:

- There are demons or unclean spirits. No religion seems to deny that.

Some religionz just don't mention demons.

- Their voice frequency is low. Why not high?

High pitched squeaky voices are not scary.

- They have superhuman strength or some special capabilities. Why not weak? Or unable to walk or lift arms?

Again, weak demons.are not scary, just pathetic. Who would.care about such a weak demon?

- Yet all their actions are driven by basic desires and emotions. You could easily tell they have no long term goals and no intelligence whatsoever, like a baby.

Where do you get your information? The NT demons could hold discussions, so they had some intelligence. And the demons could have had long ranged plans, did any one ever ask the demons what their goals were?

- Another common trait is scratching with sharp fingernails: that's quite animal like. Do humans do this under extreme situations?

In Hollywood movies they do. What evidence outside of movies do you have for sharp fingernails?

So they're in control, they have superpower but always act retarded? Why?

In movies, but where is your evidence outside of movies for thaf?

In Acts, people got mad at Paul for depossessing a girl who was making her owners money by predicring things. That does not sound retarded.

I wouldn't consider those stories false. If something is just made up, it's unlikely to have re-occurrences with similar characteristics. But there should be some explanations and calling them mentally illness doesn't help uncover the truth.

Everyone have seen the same movies, so they all get the same idea of movies.

[AqD]

@Common Soldier: we have had such stories long before there are movies.

Therefore, i would say a "demon" represents the "inhuman" aspects of humans in an attempt to banish them as a coping mechanism. It's an expression of how profoundly social creatures humans actually are. They cannot really cope with the extreme outlaws among them, so they advance an ulterior explanation, instead of accepting that this is unfortunately very human and not supernatural.

True they're universally undesirable, but not fearsome aside from rousing basic emotions.

Could it be some hidden part in our mind that has been suppressed normally? I always wonder what we could find if someone like that is sent to labs.

[conon394]

In Hellenic thoughts Daimons could be agatho- or caco-. There's also the notion of the presiding genius of a person's life.

Not really sure the daemons in Greek though really fit. Before the rise of duality mystery religions cacodaemons are sort of none existent. Otherwise you are basically taking about helpful intermediaries on a par with small local and household gods. A better pick might be the Furies/Erinyes. Although a few fragments make scary red eyed things on pots they seem to end up being winged amazons more or less. I guess read eyed crones did not sell as well a cute partially clothed amazons with wings - did you see all those feathers Cleon over there can't do wings with feathers don't buy his crap.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

As far as i know daimon were minor gods in ancient Greek.

Mors/Death was a female Daimon.

Only later with the rise of christianity the meaning of daimon changed.

[swabian]

@Common Soldier: we have had such stories long before there are movies.



True they're universally undesirable, but not fearsome aside from rousing basic emotions.

Could it be some hidden part in our mind that has been suppressed normally? I always wonder what we could find if someone like that is sent to labs.

That's a misunderstanding. I basically said that people can be fearsome and this fearsomeness is sometimes symbolized by some superstition. Every primitive culture has this in form of "evil spirits" or some crap.

[Common Soldier]

@Common Soldier: we have had such stories long before there are movies.

Really? Give an example in Greek or Roman religion where a person was possessed by a daemon and started speaking in foreign tongues? Where a person levitated and head spun around in circles? Nor have I heard in Native American lore of people being possessed by evil spirits - do you happento have an example? Same for China and Japan? Aaa

And I have never heard any ancient source describing what a demon possessed person's voice sounded like. Dou you happen to have an ancient manuscript describing what the voice sounded like?

[pacifism]

Wendigos, maybe? I don't know, most parts of the world have ghosts doing that sort of spooky thing, not evil angels. If that distinction doesn't really matter to you, there may be more examples.

been watching the Exorcist show. The Christian demons are hardly scary, nevertheless it's very interesting that all those demon stories across the world share similar traits:

- There are demons or unclean spirits. No religion seems to deny that.
- Their voice frequency is low. Why not high?
- They have superhuman strength or some special capabilities. Why not weak? Or unable to walk or lift arms?
- Yet all their actions are driven by basic desires and emotions. You could easily tell they have no long term goals and no intelligence whatsoever, like a baby.
- Another common trait is scratching with sharp fingernails: that's quite animal like. Do humans do this under extreme situations?

So they're in control, they have superpower but always act retarded? Why?

I wouldn't consider those stories false. If something is just made up, it's unlikely to have re-occurrences with similar characteristics. But there should be some explanations and calling them mentally illness doesn't help uncover the truth.

I will say that a couple Christian friends of mine have told me that they think that some small amount of mental health problems could possibly be supernatural. They were not the type to be dismissive mental health, either. I think there is something to be said about pre-existing cultural perceptions feeding into supposedly supernatural events. People who claim to encounter ghosts or demons or whatever often describe stuff happening that fits with how they already think those things behave. It's my impression that Christians tend to ascribe to demons what many others would ascribe to ghosts. There is some overlap between the behavior of the Hollywood Christian-inspired demon and the vengeful human spirits in less Christian cultures.

In the case of the Exorcist, in Roman Catholic theology, demons are fallen angels that now serve as supernatural forces of evil. Angels are more powerful than regular humans, so we attach evil, powerful associations with them.

I think that the reasoning behind Catholic demons having great physical strength is obvious.

Villain music tend to be written with lower register instruments or sung by bass singers, so a deep voice is usually associated with evil. In music composition, higher notes on low instruments usually work well for a high point in the dynamics, so even high notes on low instruments don't have the same suspenseful, foreboding effect than those low frequencies have. I'm not super familiar with horror genres, so I don't know about horror movie demon's normal motivations, but I wouldn't be surprised if the villain is about as unnuanced as the rest of the cast.

[fkizz]

Well, in Catholicism, most Demons are supposedly Fallen Angels.

Angels are not humans with white feathery wings. More often than not they have frightening looks - hence the common "fear not" they utter when they reveal themselves.
So it's only normal fallen angels would have frightening appearances as well.

Some of the attempts on drawing accuracy of (Angels) saying hello

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Obviously the Renaissance type Angels give better press.

[pacifism]

That's a good point. Demon in our popular imagination are actually quite a bit different from the source material. Part of that is probably just Hollywood trying to make a buck, but biblical descriptions of angels vary by quite a bit. The main theme is that they are awesome in the original sense of the word, which gives them a level of incomprehensibility that allows media to modify it to suit a story's needs.

I haven't read very much about supposed real-world exorcisms, so I'm curious if the supposed demon is acting like a horror film antagonist or something closer to the Bible.

[basics]

I remember going with my wife along with our Pastor to a Christian meeting in Inverness. It was a normal evangelical meeting but at one point one of the guest speakers whilst praying suggested that there was someone in the congregation who needed rid of an evil spirit. Whilst in prayer about it there was suddenly the most horrendous scream from a woman behind us. Now I've seen most of the movies, seen and heard screams, but never before had I ever had the hairs at the back of my head stood up because of them. Was it contrived? I don't believe so as just after that event we witnessed a woman with arthriticly bent fingers straighten before our very eyes. The thing is that when we left Sandy Shaw our Pastor repeated that he too had never witnessed anything like it or ecperienced the same feeling as us, and he had preached around the world. So, are there evil forces around us, even in some of us, I believe so, why? Because God's word tells us that is the case.

[Himster]

The "evil angel tribe" in Avestan and Vedic thoughts seem to be a mirror image of the "good angel tribe", essentially supernatural lords: as with the Bible's angels (heavenly and presumably fallen) they can be scary or human-like.

I know something about that "Good angel tribe" and its effects in Indian mental health. Around the world we have instances of voices telling people to burn things and murder their spouses and what not. In India that is rarely the case. When they suffer auditory hallucinations they would hear compliments and helpful comments. It has changed in recent years. But it is interesting how the religion of one's country can have such an effect on medical issues.

[AqD]

Really? Give an example in Greek or Roman religion where a person was possessed by a daemon and started speaking in foreign tongues? Where a person levitated and head spun around in circles? Nor have I heard in Native American lore of people being possessed by evil spirits - do you happento have an example? Same for China and Japan? Aaa

And I have never heard any ancient source describing what a demon possessed person's voice sounded like. Dou you happen to have an ancient manuscript describing what the voice sounded like?

Interesting. I actually don't have source for classic period. Our local source is all about possessions by dead people (not demons), but somehow there is no historical source from China dated back one or two centuries ago.

[Prodromos]

There are demons or unclean spirits. No religion seems to deny that.

The Bible seems to use demon and unclean spirit interchangeably. I think the standard theory that they're fallen angels is probably true. They seem to know that Jesus is the Son of God. They also seem to have a view of eschatology; they know they're doomed in the end and want to cause as much damage to humanity while they can.

Luke 4

41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.

Matthew 8

28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

My understanding is that while demons can attack Christians, only non-Christians can be demon-possessed, because a Christian is God's temple and the Spirit of God dwells in him, so there's no room for a demon there.

Matthew 12

43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”

1 Corinthians 3

6 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

[Gromovnik]

I remember going with my wife along with our Pastor to a Christian meeting in Inverness. It was a normal evangelical meeting but at one point one of the guest speakers whilst praying suggested that there was someone in the congregation who needed rid of an evil spirit. Whilst in prayer about it there was suddenly the most horrendous scream from a woman behind us. Now I've seen most of the movies, seen and heard screams, but never before had I ever had the hairs at the back of my head stood up because of them. Was it contrived? I don't believe so as just after that event we witnessed a woman with arthriticly bent fingers straighten before our very eyes. The thing is that when we left Sandy Shaw our Pastor repeated that he too had never witnessed anything like it or ecperienced the same feeling as us, and he had preached around the world. So, are there evil forces around us, even in some of us, I believe so, why? Because God's word tells us that is the case.

She was insane.

[basics]

She was insane.

Gromovnik,

Then why did she respond to the preacher in that way? No doubt her sanity was impaired but why was she not screaming before he made the call? Another similar event happened to me when I was in hospital. Being a cigarette smoker I would make my way down to this covered enclosure where other smokers gathered. It was under the building in which mental health patients were treated, even housed. This particular day there was an elderly woman sitting there cursing and swearing like a trooper but in a murmering way. I turned to her and asked, " Have you heard of Jesus?" She turned to me and her volume increased as she got up and left that place quickly. Was it just me or was there something about the name Jesus that set her off? I never saw her again.

[conon394]

Gromovnik,

Then why did she respond to the preacher in that way? No doubt her sanity was impaired but why was she not screaming before he made the call? Another similar event happened to me when I was in hospital. Being a cigarette smoker I would make my way down to this covered enclosure where other smokers gathered. It was under the building in which mental health patients were treated, even housed. This particular day there was an elderly woman sitting there cursing and swearing like a trooper but in a murmering way. I turned to her and asked, " Have you heard of Jesus?" She turned to me and her volume increased as she got up and left that place quickly. Was it just me or was there something about the name Jesus that set her off? I never saw her again.

Or maybe its the about the same reaction I have when the LDS or Jehovah's witnesses show at my door with the same question - man I wish I was not polite and could shut the door on them.