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Thread: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

  1. #41

    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The same inconsistency applies for your position, as well, Alastor.
    What is Alastor's position?

  2. #42

    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    It is exactly as you said, with one objection. Jailing them WAS the goal, because they still fear them, due to the dynamic of the new party formed by Kasidiaris, the second in rank in GD, who realised that Hellenic nationalism would require something newer than GD in order to govern. There are many right wingers who are sidappointed in Mitsotakis (the current government) because of their treacherous attitude on the Prespes Deal (they characterised the recognition of "North Macedonia" as a historic agreement, even though prior to the elections they had said they would do anything they could to subvert it, and they are getting ready to make concessions to Turkey in the Aegean). In fact, the right hand man of the previous Nea Dimokratia Prime Minister, Antonis Samaras, confessed (in a hidden camera) that the whole issue had been set up by Nea Dimokratia, in order to reclaim the votes lost to GD. When the GD defense brought this, the legislators changed the law so that footage from hidden cameras cannot be used in court. Of course, someone who commits a crime will willingly confess it once informed about the presence of the camera, I guess.


    Long live Greece? Long live democracy?
    And yet many of those gathered there on that day, had the motto "να πεθάνει η Ελλάδα να ζήσουμε εμείς" (let Greece die so that we may live) on their lips on other occasions. So, which is it?
    Btw, what do you think of the serious incidents even after the judgement was passed, which was to their liking? If those patriotic democrats used molotov coctails to destroy public and private property when the judgement was to their liking, what would they do if the cerdict was not to their liking, I wonder?
    And on a final note, here is this:


    Here is an image of a young man, being arrested by the Communist police some time in the late 80's, in an Eastern European country.
    his name is Viktor Orban.

    If anything, it seems more like an attempt to prevent population from rallying behind a nationalist cause, especially with looming threat of Turkey from one side and marxist moral schizophrenia of EU elites from another. The issue with hidden cameras only proves further that this is a kangaroo trial aimed against political opposition, kinda similar to Putin's Russia.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Simple, it is:
    Long live Greece! Long live democracy!
    With an added: Down with the Neonazi parties and Nazi apologists!

    That was not a hard question, was it?



    PS. I am sure the communist police in the 80s arrested a lot of bad apples along with the true idealists and patriots. Orban was one of the bad apples.

    Also, I think you put the Kasidiaris video up twice. Not Lagos and Kasidiaris.
    I know they take their orders from the same person and follow scripted speeches to the letter so I expect them to have a very similar speech, but I bet they don't look the same. At least, not yet. Once they're in their nice prison jumpsuits, then yes. As such, I think you mis-linked the Lagos Video.

    With an added: Down with the Neonazi parties and Nazi apologists!
    And there I was, thinking that they were on trial because of alleged crimes. How quickly does this facade vanish, revealing the true cause of their persecution, ie the fact that they are nationalist (of course they would be painted as "nazis".)
    The fact that during this kangaroo trial all basic rights were violated, included, but not limited to the presumption of innocence (all the political parties were naming them "criminal organisation" long before the outcome of the trial, the President of the Republic was also doing that, the media, and the union of civil servants (ΑΔΕΔΥ) even organised a strike, requesting that... the GD members be found guilty). Not to mention some thousands of violent demonstrators gathered outside the court, demanding that they be found guilty (they even threw molotov coctails, destroying private and public property alike, and placing lives in danger, even with an outcome favourable to them). I am sure the Court of human rights, which Lagos (and others, possibly) will be addressing soon, will find all this very interesting. If successful, Lagos's appeal will be the second accepted by the Human Rights court against this government (the first one is with regard to Touloupaki, who was prosecuted by this government because she was investigating corruption charges regarding members of Mitsotakis's Party). And that is only in the space of 14-15 months. It seems that Greece is fast on track to becoming something like Erdoganic Turkey.
    But of course, center-left parties such as Mera25, or left partis such as the Greek Communist Party, are on a sort of unholy alliance with Nea Dimokratia, since ND favours them for taking voters off Suriza, just like Suriza favoured the GD, for taking voters off ND.

    Whether or not Orban is a bad apple is quite beside the point. What is on point, is that Orban is on his third (?) if I am not mistaken term. I salute him, and hope he reigns for many, many more years to come.

    As for linking Lagos's video, you are correct, I linked Kasidiaris's twice. Here it is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohclvl4Qq-o
    He declares his intention to go to European courts (possible the European Court of Human Rights) and international law firms. He claims that the decisions made in the current trial was pretty much arbitrary (I agree), and it remains to be seen how these (Greek) judges will base their decisions on international courts.

    If anything, it seems more like an attempt to prevent population from rallying behind a nationalist cause, especially with looming threat of Turkey from one side and marxist moral schizophrenia of EU elites from another. The issue with hidden cameras only proves further that this is a kangaroo trial aimed against political opposition, kinda similar to Putin's Russia.
    That is an excellent point. As stated previously, the Nea Dimokratia will possibly lose many voters of the patriotic right (with or without quotation marks). These voters, particularly the youth, would possibly gravitate toward Kasidiaris's new party, which, even though is only a few months old, was receiving a measurable percentage in the polls. Kasidiaris himself, a very dynamic and aggressive politician, frequently addressed the people via his YT channel. All of his videos received tens of thousands of views withing a few days. In fact, the videos he posted after his conviction are skyrocketing. Hopefully, the politically... encouraged court decision will backfire.

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  4. #44
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The same inconsistency applies for your position, as well, Alastor. If she didn't believe there was enough for convinction, then why did she suggest these penalties, instead of accepting the mitigating factors? Why didn't she argue for leniency on the basis of genuine remorse and reasonable doubts? Could she have simply jumped into the band-wagon.
    Does it? The time for deciding a verdict has passed. Those people are now considered guilty as far as that court is concerned of all the crimes ascribed to them. Based on that she made her suggestions. Besides I doubt she ever claimed that the accused were remorseful, her position was there isn't enough evidence to convict. That's apples and oranges.

    I'm not saying that she couldn't have caved to pressure, she was fiercely attacked for her earlier stance by various people willing to meddle. I'm only saying that it isn't necessary for her to have caved for my impression to have merit. Yours on the other hand is inconsistent if she didn't cave and baseless if she did.
    Last edited by Alastor; October 14, 2020 at 08:31 PM.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Prosecutor changing her mind: Politics. She didn't stick with the sinking ship. Her initial stance was enough of a wink to the hard-core rightwings and earned her some notoriety (better be despised than unknown) and her reversal would mitigate most of the consequences of her early stance.

    And there I was, thinking that they were on trial because of alleged crimes.
    They were on trial because of committed crimes.
    But I am glad because they were neonazis. I don't hide that if a random drug cartel or conspiracy in Greece was arrested I wouldn't be as happy.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Prosecutor changing her mind: Politics. She didn't stick with the sinking ship. Her initial stance was enough of a wink to the hard-core rightwings and earned her some notoriety (better be despised than unknown) and her reversal would mitigate most of the consequences of her early stance.


    They were on trial because of committed crimes.
    But I am glad because they were neonazis. I don't hide that if a random drug cartel or conspiracy in Greece was arrested I wouldn't be as happy.
    In one sentence you speak of politics, and in the next you speak of committed crimes. Which crimes these were, is beyond me.
    The murder of Fussas was the work of one guy, certainly NOT by orders of Michaloliakos, Kasidiaris, or Lagos. If anything, the phone conversations demonstrate that they themselves were taken aback at it, and didn't know how to react.
    It's like saying that Nea Dimokratia should be put to trial for the murder of Temponeras in 1991. In fact, there would be more grounds for something like that, because Kalampokas, the murderer was characterised as a comrade by the Local Nea Dimokratia organisation, and after he served his meagre sentence (I think he didn't stay in prison for more than 6-7 years) he was well taken care of (If I recall correctly he is the manager of a bank, which is preposterous for a murderer).

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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    In one sentence you speak of politics, and in the next you speak of committed crimes. Which crimes these were, is beyond me.
    The murder of Fussas was the work of one guy, certainly NOT by orders of Michaloliakos, Kasidiaris, or Lagos. If anything, the phone conversations demonstrate that they themselves were taken aback at it, and didn't know how to react.
    It's like saying that Nea Dimokratia should be put to trial for the murder of Temponeras in 1991. In fact, there would be more grounds for something like that, because Kalampokas, the murderer was characterised as a comrade by the Local Nea Dimokratia organisation, and after he served his meagre sentence (I think he didn't stay in prison for more than 6-7 years) he was well taken care of (If I recall correctly he is the manager of a bank, which is preposterous for a murderer).
    They were found with guns in their houses. They were training Keraunos, a militia, to act as their militant arm. They were selling protection rackets in various cities around Greece to raise funds for their activities.

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  8. #48

    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    They were found with guns in their houses. They were training Keraunos, a militia, to act as their militant arm. They were selling protection rackets in various cities around Greece to raise funds for their activities.

    Do you need more?
    What weapons? The airsoft guns? Are you serious? The only weapon that was found in Kasidiaris's house was a hunting rifle, which he legally owned. The media presented ridicilous photos of weapons captured by Latin-American cartels as GD weapons. As for training militia, I don't think I've heard anything more ridiculous in my life. Doing self defense sessions is "training militia". What are we going to hear next? Who said this ? The "undercover witesses" who were "corrected" by a prompter?

    This is the testimony of one of the "protected" witnesses in the trial of GD.
    The "witness" says "It was in '13 (2013)", the lawyer asks "which month?" and you can hear a prompter saying "It was in '12 (2012)", the witness says "it was in '12 (2012), apologies, it was in '12".
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAt9RbUUCP0

    The court said that the second voice that can be heard correcting the witness's testimony was "the echo" of his voice.
    Thank you for giving me the opportunity to place that bit of information here, btw.
    I am sure that, when Lagos and the others bring this in, the European Court of human rights will find it very very interesting. I think that Greece will have a second condemnation regarding violations of human rights for political reasons, again under the Mitsotakis administration. I hope the Greek people don't allow Mitsotakis to become the Erdogan of Greece.

    Btw, possessing weapons is not proof of a criminal organisation. If it was so, then the whole island of Crete would be a criminal group. I am sure you know what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by ioannis76; October 16, 2020 at 05:28 AM.

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  9. #49
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    That's a bunch of bollocks, Ioannis. We heard the conversations after Fyssas' murder, we heard the conversations before the attacks on PAME members, and we heard the conversations about the attacks on the egyptian fishermen.
    Every bunch of words you have been spouting since the court decisions is either neonazi propaganda or outright lies.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Btw, possessing weapons is not proof of a criminal organisation. If it was so, then the whole island of Crete would be a criminal group. I am sure you know what I'm talking about.
    I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Ιn other news, all Golden Dawn members have been finally imprisoned, atlhough the only, legal professional in the case, the prosecutor, had advocated for suspended sentences, because the convicted criminals had shown zero signs of disappearing. Well, not all of them to be exact. One of them, Lagos (Mr. Rabbit) had already run away to Brussels, as he also enjoys the privilege of immunity, having been elected to the European Parliament since 2019. The Parliament is expected to revoke his immunity, so let's hope that Lagos will surrender willingly to the authorities. However, the sub-Führer of the ciminal and Neo-Nazi organisation of the Golden Dawn, Christos Pappas, decided to run away and not wait for the appeal in the superior tribunal.

    Despite the optimist estimations of the prosecutor about the obedience of the accused and the close monitoring of the police forces, Mr. Pappas is still hiding and escaping from justice. What can I say, it seems that the Hellenic Police does not rate very highly in the Simon Wiesenthal scale. Coincidentally enough, Pappas is the moustached figure, whose picture uploaded in the first post depicts him in tender moments with Mussolini's bust, so someone might argue that our discussion had prophetic undertones.

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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    No Nibelungentreue to their cause. I always prefer nazis follow their leader.
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Ιn other news, all Golden Dawn members have been finally imprisoned,

    [...]

    Despite the optimist estimations of the prosecutor about the obedience of the accused and the close monitoring of the police forces, Mr. Pappas is still hiding and escaping from justice.
    Contradiction.
    Also with Pappas able to act (he had the guns and he's the guy saluting Mussolini) the terrorists of the Golden Dawn are very dangerous. There's a manhunt for the #2 of the Golden Dawn, a proven Fascist. Newspapers yesterday were saying he may have fled abroad or he may be hiding in a monastery.
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Contradiction.
    Also with Pappas able to act (he had the guns and he's the guy saluting Mussolini) the terrorists of the Golden Dawn are very dangerous. There's a manhunt for the #2 of the Golden Dawn, a proven Fascist. Newspapers yesterday were saying he may have fled abroad or he may be hiding in a monastery.
    You know it's not a crime to be a fascist right? Besides the majority of the people convicted surrendered willingly, including the leader of Golden Dawn. That is despite the character assassination they were being subjected to by the media, who were portraying them as cowardly, man-babies begging to escape their just deserts... for attempting to make use of their legal rights. I wonder how you compromise that with the fact nearly the whole leadership surrendered willingly.

    Regarding Pappas, well the police couldn't have been tailing him before he was sentenced. The police can't be following people around without a legal reason and likely to be convicted to a prison sentence sometime soon, is not such a reason. So I understand how he could have escaped, however embarrassing it may be that it happened. I also sympathize with his rationale, as stated by his lawyer, that he was falsely convicted in a kangaroo trial and will be exonerated on appeal, so why waste more years of his life behind bars when innocent. I do not approve, the law should be respected, but I sympathize.

    What I am curious the most though is if the fate that befell Golden Dawn is what awaits Trump should he lose the upcoming elections. I am of the belief that Trump, Brexit, LePen, AfD, PVV, GD etc etc all draw their votes from the same pool of disenfranchised people that the system has left behind. The basket of deplorables as Hillary put it. Now that the populist wave seems to be on retreat, after repeated failures to actually deliver on their promises and constant attacks from the media, I wonder if this is the way the establishment will pursue to expunge these elements from politics as a whole.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    So, being incapable of running away is a sign of bravery? Seems a bit far-fetched. I'd appreciate the resilience more, if, for example, they had stayed in the Golden Dawn and proudly defended their beliefs, instead of pretending they have no relationship with the party and Neo-Nazism. Practically all the rats had abandoned the sinking ship, before the conclusion of the trial. So, again why was it a kangaroo trial, again? How were the leadership of Mihaloliakos, the regular violent attacks against immigrants/workers/leftists, the calls for violence, the compromising phone conversations, the manifestos endorsing the violent extermination of various opponents and the acceptance of political responsibility by the Führer himself faked? Because the prosecutor, who believes the Nazi salute is of ancient, Greek origins, and that the Neo-Nazi criminals would never run away, asked for them to be exhonerated? Seems a bit far-fetched, the opinion of the prosecutor being different to the unanimous verdict of seven judges doesn't indicate any miscarriage of justice.

    Finally, I don't think there are many similarities between Brexit, Le Pen and the Golden Dawn. Le Pen so far limits herself to embezzlement, while Golden Dawn has a long history of murderous attacks and endorsement of Hitler's ideals. I doubt they should enjoy any immunity, because of their political power, which had already evaporated before the conclusion of the trial, presumably because so many prominent members chickened out and left the group, in order to escape from justice. Finally, the claim that the Neo-Nazis represented the disenfranchised members of the society is also quite arbitrary. As already mentioned in the opening post, Golden Dawn has attacked trade unions, who dare to ask for more rights, while they also called for absolute obedience and tax exemption to ship-owners. Apparently, the most notorious magnate, Marinakis, has also employed them to gain political influence. They look more like mercenaries, available for recruitement for the wealthiest lobbyist and willing to physically crush everything on their path, usually blue-collar Greek workers.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You know it's not a crime to be a fascist right?
    Of course not.
    But it is a crime to run after you were convicted for forming a criminal organization.

    Pappas is very dangerous. I consider him more dangerous than Lagos and Kassidiaris. He is the one that I consider the most willing to turn the hotheads of the Golden dawn, that 1/500 members that have been properly radicalized to a terrorist organization before he finally falls.
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    @Abdulmecid
    Pappas was capable of running away, evidently. Why not the rest? Still, I suppose you appreciate Mihaloliakos then, who apparently remained defiant enough to say he is proud to be imprisoned for his beliefs?

    When I said kangaroo trial I meant that was what Pappas believes it to be. Though personally I remain unconvinced about the verdict as well. I am of the impression that they were on trial for their beliefs, or what they represent, first and foremost and for material acts second. The reaction I see even in this very thread from people who keep on going "fascist this" and "fascist that" only reinforces this impression. As for the evidence you list, such as incriminating conversations, from what I heard at least they were surprised about the Fyssas incident for instance, they certainly did not target him. I'm not saying they shed many tears for his death, though it's not like many on the left would have shed tears for them either had it been one of their own, but the point is that they certainly did not arrange it. Yet that's what the court ended up deciding.

    Interesting that you single out Brexit and LePen, but not the rest from the comparison. Nevertheless I do think that all those political forces gain votes from the disenfranchised. Mind you I'm not saying they genuinely represent their interests. I wrote in that same post that they have repeatedly failed to deliver on their promises and that's one of the reasons they are generally on retreat in polls. But I do believe that's where most of their voters came from. I certainly don't believe that the 15% or so of Greeks that voted for GD are actually neo-nazis or whatever else this group stood for ideologically. I do believe it was a protest vote first and foremost, just like many a vote for the other forces I listed are.
    Last edited by Alastor; October 25, 2020 at 02:09 PM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    From what I remember of what Abdulmeci told me, Golden Dawn members colaborated with Nazi occupation instead of doing resistance movement (the typical expected of a Nationalist movement), so assuming this as correct, the only thing to say is to give them chance for introspection and analyse their ways, and if members really agree or are informed with what the party really wants as a goal.

    So assuming that as true, they are not a proper Nationalist movement, the type that would resist Nazis and fight Ottomans.

    That said 2 questions loom in the air: Why was the party formed? and why does it mantain popularity?
    Last edited by fkizz; October 25, 2020 at 02:20 PM.
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  19. #59
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    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    From what I remember of what Abdulmeci told me, Golden Dawn members colaborated with Nazi occupation instead of doing resistance movement (the typical expected of a Nationalist movement), so assuming this as correct, the only thing to say is to give them chance for introspection and analyse their ways, and if members really agree or are informed with what the party really wants as a goal.

    So assuming that as true, they are not a proper Nationalist movement, the type that would resist Nazis and fight Ottomans.
    That can't be true, Golden Dawn was founded about 30 years ago and their founder was born well over a decade after the nazi occupation of Greece was over. Anyone who collaborated with the nazis, if they are alive now must be about 100 years old. WW2 really was a long time ago. I doubt most of them were even old enough to support the junta of the colonels (1967-1974), though I'm pretty sure they'd have liked to.

    Still it does make for an interesting contradiction in their beliefs. If they actually are nazis, I wonder how they compromise their nationalism with the fact the nazis were invaders and occupied Greece. Groups like that often have some strange, mind-bending explanation for such contradictions. But then again, as far as I am aware, they deny being nazis, so I'm not sure if they ever provided one.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Greece: Court Condemns the Neo-Nazi Party of Golden Dawn as a Criminal Organisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    That can't be true, Golden Dawn was founded about 30 years ago and their founder was born well over a decade after the nazi occupation of Greece was over. Anyone who collaborated with the nazis, if they are alive now must be about 100 years old. WW2 really was a long time ago. I doubt most of them were even old enough to support the junta of the colonels (1967-1974), though I'm pretty sure they'd have liked to.

    Still it does make for an interesting contradiction in their beliefs. If they actually are nazis, I wonder how they compromise their nationalism with the fact the nazis were invaders and occupied Greece. Groups like that often have some strange, mind-bending explanation for such contradictions. But then again, as far as I am aware, they deny being nazis, so I'm not sure if they ever provided one.
    You raise very good points, even assuming they are not nazis but find inspiration in nazi aesthetics/ethos or something, they are putting Ancient Greek achievments as inferior to the ideals of Nazi Germany. My guess (it's a guess, not a full fledged statement) is that they look at Nazi Germany with very Rose tinted Glasses while cherrypicking, rather than being actual Nazis. But regardless if they are or not, the whole premise from the beginning sustains more a former external occupying force Ideals as superior to the Ancient Greeks Ideals.
    How can they accept this as Nationalist movement is beyond me.

    Greece suffered a lot of economic penitance and feels humiliated, and a protest shock type party (like Syriza formerly was) would gather a lot of votes, I can get that much, but putting a party that non ironically sees the Greeks as inferior to the cherry picked parts of their former occupiers does not qualify them for a Nationalist movement.

    Ancient Greek virtues are admired by the whole West, and even outside West, where is the necessity of cherry picking things from 70 years ago is hard to understand.
    Last edited by fkizz; October 25, 2020 at 03:04 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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