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Thread: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

  1. #1361

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Romania.
    Hmmm... The one from 1989? It's not exactly an example that supports your assertion. Are you referring to an other one?
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  2. #1362

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Are you referring to an other one?
    The other one got suppressed by two other Major Powers during that time.

  3. #1363

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Hmmm... The one from 1989? It's not exactly an example that supports your assertion. Are you referring to an other one?
    Semantics. Parts of military revolting is still an armed revolt.

  4. #1364

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/26/u...t-warrant.html

    WASHINGTON — The Justice Department’s search of former President Donald J. Trump’s Florida home was spurred by the discovery that he had retained a trove of highly classified material that included documents related to the use of “clandestine human sources” in intelligence gathering, according to a redacted version of the affidavit used to obtain the search warrant.
    The portions of the affidavit made public on Friday describe the Justice Department’s monthslong push to recover sensitive materials taken from the White House by a former president who viewed state documents as his private property, and now faces a department investigating the possibility he illegally obstructed those efforts.
    The partial release of the 38-page affidavit was the latest in a remarkable succession of developments in the inquiry into how hundreds of pages of documents with classified markings ended up at Mr. Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence after he left the White House, in apparent violation of the law requiring all presidential materials to be turned over to the National Archives.



    The filing also documents in exhaustive detail efforts by the archives and Justice Department to claw back the material in Mr. Trump’s possession without resorting to a search that would, inevitably, create a powerful political backlash from the former president and his supporters.

    The only questions left are:

    1. How much of this intelligence was sold to Russia, China, North Korea, and other anti-US states?

    2. How much did he get for it?

    3. Does the law apply to wealthy Republicans?

  5. #1365

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Semantics. Parts of military revolting is still an armed revolt.
    Not really semantics. We're talking about civil arms here. You need to be able to show that civil arms having the capability to topple a government with an established and able authoritarian forces like an army. The case of Romania from 1989 didn't really start with an armed revolt either. It started with extensive protesting that didn't involve guns. In fact, most of the violence came after the government was toppled.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  6. #1366

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...lity-louisiana

    An expectant Louisiana woman who is carrying a skull-less fetus that would die almost immediately after birth has cemented plans to travel to North Carolina to terminate her pregnancy, she said on Friday.
    Nancy Davis, 36, has been facing a choice of either carrying the fetus to term or traveling several states away for an abortion after she says her local medical provider would not perform the procedure amid confusion over whether the state’s abortion ban outlawed it.
    The response from the right has been a combination of "imprison her and force her to give birth" and "if she prays hard enough, Jesus will give it a skull".

  7. #1367

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not really semantics. We're talking about civil arms here. You need to be able to show that civil arms having the capability to topple a government with an established and able authoritarian forces like an army. The case of Romania from 1989 didn't really start with an armed revolt either. It started with extensive protesting that didn't involve guns. In fact, most of the violence came after the government was toppled.
    Taliban vs NATO, VC vs France & USA & ARVN, DPR militias vs Ukraine, Kurds vs ISIS and Turkey, Houthis vs. Saudis, Hezbollah vs Israel, etc.
    Romanian government was overthrown by army revolting, which counts as armed rebellion as citizens acquired guns and used them against loyalists.

  8. #1368

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Taliban vs NATO, VC vs France & USA & ARVN, DPR militias vs Ukraine, Kurds vs ISIS and Turkey, Houthis vs. Saudis, Hezbollah vs Israel, etc.
    Romanian government was overthrown by army revolting, which counts as armed rebellion as citizens acquired guns and used them against loyalists.
    Again, we're talking about civilian weapons. All those examples are either not qualify as successful revolts or or fail to be armed civilian revolts as they contain major army components. Our concerns are weapons that civilians can purchase; not heavy machine guns, not armored vehicles, not rocket launchers, not heavy artillery, so on and on.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  9. #1369

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Again, we're talking about civilian weapons. All those examples are either not qualify as successful revolts or or fail to be armed civilian revolts as they contain major army components. Our concerns are weapons that civilians can purchase; not heavy machine guns, not armored vehicles, not rocket launchers, not heavy artillery, so on and on.
    Um, what are you even talking about lol
    Civilians can totally use non-civilian weapons.
    Civilians either having military join them or taking them by force or getting them from another country that is helping them is still a successful armed revolt.
    Stop grasping at straws, you can do better.

  10. #1370

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/features...ancial-fallout

    Former President Donald Trump’s social media outfit, Truth Social, is locked in a bitter battle with one of its vendors claiming that the platform is stiffing the company out of more than $1 million in contractually obligated payments, FOX Business has learned.
    Like the fable of the scorpion and the frog, Trump just cannot help ripping people off.

  11. #1371
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Plenty of tyrants in history were deposed via armed revolts and we have relatively recent examples too. Armed revolts against tyranny work. Hence why support for disarmament of population is strictly a tyrannical trait of any government and should be universally recognized as abhorrent along with racism and sexism.
    Yes. Tyrants in history were deposed via armed revolts.
    Many of them ruled over disarmed populations. And many of them ruled over armed populations.
    Many armed rebellions also failed, btw. Like many of the Arab Spring revolutions that despite the populace having guns from the West, they failed. And on other cases, many rebellions that started practically unarmed succeeded. Like ISIS.

    So far, so good.

    Now, how many tyrants in history have come to power through armed revolts? How many democratically elected governments have been overthrown by tyrants leading armed mobs?

    And as you say yourself, you don't need an armed population to have an armed revolution. Especially today that we all know there would be at least one faction, USA, Russia, China, Saudis & Pakistan, Iran etc that will arm the rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Semantics. Parts of military revolting is still an armed revolt.

    Of course. And it proves you actually don't need armed population. The parts of the military that will revolt, will arm the people.

    So, there's absolutely no need for people to have guns in the meantime.
    Last edited by alhoon; August 27, 2022 at 05:30 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  12. #1372

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Um, what are you even talking about lol
    Civilians can totally use non-civilian weapons.
    Civilians either having military join them or taking them by force or getting them from another country that is helping them is still a successful armed revolt.
    Stop grasping at straws, you can do better.
    We're still talking about civilian weapons. You can't keep your stance a valid one by merely ignoring the glaring problems presented to you. The fact is that you're unable to come up with an example that mere access to civilians weapons for the general public allowed them to topple an authoritarian government. I don't need to do better. What I'm pointing at is doing the work just fine.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  13. #1373

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Yes. Tyrants in history were deposed via armed revolts.
    Many of them ruled over disarmed populations. And many of them ruled over armed populations.
    Many armed rebellions also failed, btw. Like many of the Arab Spring revolutions that despite the populace having guns from the West, they failed. And on other cases, many rebellions that started practically unarmed succeeded. Like ISIS.

    So far, so good.

    Now, how many tyrants in history have come to power through armed revolts? How many democratically elected governments have been overthrown by tyrants leading armed mobs?

    And as you say yourself, you don't need an armed population to have an armed revolution. Especially today that we all know there would be at least one faction, USA, Russia, China, Saudis & Pakistan, Iran etc that will arm the rebels.
    That's not what I said. Armed population is kinda like contingency of tyranny... or armed mobs. In 2020 antifa mobs only rampaged in downtown cores of blue "gun free" cities for a reason.
    The harder people can "bite" the less it is likely that state or some other mob would go after them.
    Armed population is a good counter-balance, especially in places like USA, where they have nontransparent, very corrupt unaccountable federal law enforcement.
    Of course. And it proves you actually don't need armed population. The parts of the military that will revolt, will arm the people.

    So, there's absolutely no need for people to have guns in the meantime.
    That's just a classical reddit sophistry "gotcha" moment, dude, come on. I expect that from that other guy, but not from you, I genuinely believe you are above that and simply misread what I said.
    The whole point is to make it easier for population to resist in the event that state goes after it.
    Logically speaking, armed population is the only thing that can actually preserve freedoms. Freedoms are won by violence and force, you can't negotiate with Lenin or , but people like that understand the language of violence.

  14. #1374

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Notice folks how Heathen Hammer hollowed out his own position so much that it's hard to spot what he's arguing about anymore. His initial claim was that arming of the population was what overthrew tyrants. So far he failed to provide a single example of a tyrant being overthrown by the armed population. Hence, he is trying to blur the lines between armed general population and armed forces of a country that made revolts successful by joining the rebels.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  15. #1375
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That's not what I said. Armed population is kinda like contingency of tyranny... or armed mobs. In 2020 antifa mobs only rampaged in downtown cores of blue "gun free" cities for a reason.
    The harder people can "bite" the less it is likely that state or some other mob would go after them.
    Armed population is a good counter-balance, especially in places like USA, where they have nontransparent, very corrupt unaccountable federal law enforcement.

    That's just a classical reddit sophistry "gotcha" moment, dude, come on. I expect that from that other guy, but not from you, I genuinely believe you are above that and simply misread what I said.
    The whole point is to make it easier for population to resist in the event that state goes after it.
    Logically speaking, armed population is the only thing that can actually preserve freedoms. Freedoms are won by violence and force, you can't negotiate with Lenin or , but people like that understand the language of violence.
    Oh, come on.
    That's not a gotcha moment.

    The point that "you don't necessarily need the population to be armed to have an armed rebellion because (a) parts of the military will rebel too and arm the population (b) some outside modest-or-big player will show up with guns" is valid.
    I mean it. Since in case of a revolution, the populace will be armed fairly quickly (see what happened in Euromaidan in Ukraine 2013) the argument "we need guns to overthrow the government" loses water.

    Now, you mentioned mobs. That's very different than stopping an evil, oppressive government. Do you have data, actual data and stats, to support your claim that guns stop mobs?
    Because in an armed population... the ANTIFA would be armed too. I.e. the mob will show up with Assault rifles and shotguns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Freedoms are won by violence and force, you can't negotiate with Lenin or , but people like that understand the language of violence.
    1. Not always; Color revolutions and Ghandi's resistance come to mind. Or the fall of the USSR.
    2. Lenin freed the Russians from the Czar; they still had serfdom over there. Bad as the communists were, they were better than the old regime.
    3 - and the main thing: Even if we go by the more accurate "the majority of cases when freedoms were won, were won with guns" :
    3a: You don't necessarily need guns in homes to have armed revolutions.
    3b: In the case you absolutely want to have guns in the hands of the population: Do it like Switzerland or Israel! It's not like the notion of armed population is only USA. There are others that do it without mass murders.
    Last edited by alhoon; August 29, 2022 at 12:45 AM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  16. #1376

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Oh, come on.
    That's not a gotcha moment.

    The point that "you don't necessarily need the population to be armed to have an armed rebellion because (a) parts of the military will rebel too and arm the population (b) some outside modest-or-big player will show up with guns" is valid.
    Not really, armed population would be contingency to government or some other mob forgetting its place.
    They'd simply be less likely to cross the line, if they know they'll have to deal with armed citizens. Most of tyrannies happen because citizens weren't armed in the first place. Preventing tyranny in a first place is even better.
    I mean it. Since in case of a revolution, the populace will be armed fairly quickly (see what happened in Euromaidan in Ukraine 2013) the argument "we need guns to overthrow the government" loses water.

    Now, you mentioned mobs. That's very different than stopping an evil, oppressive government. Do you have data, actual data and stats, to support your claim that guns stop mobs?
    Because in an armed population... the ANTIFA would be armed too. I.e. the mob will show up with Assault rifles and shotguns!
    I don't think groups like antifa can really function without of an army of corrupt law enforcement and soros-funded officials covering up for them.
    Just look at how one armed teenager saved the day in Kenosha, despite the the fact that antifa-thugs that tried to murder him had almost unlimited backing from the corrupt law enforcement and corrupt and biased DAs.
    1. Not always; Color revolutions and Ghandi's resistance come to mind. Or the fall of the USSR.
    2. Lenin freed the Russians from the Czar; they still had serfdom over there. Bad as the communists were, they were better than the old regime.
    3 - and the main thing: Even if we go by the more accurate "the majority of cases when freedoms were won, were won with guns" :
    3a: You don't necessarily need guns in homes to have armed revolutions.
    3b: In the case you absolutely want to have guns in the hands of the population: Do it like Switzerland or Israel! It's not like the notion of armed population is only USA. There are others that do it without mass murders.
    1. Color revolutions are just 5 eyes glowies staging coups with barely any involvement from "the people", Ghandi's resistance is a meme since it was backed by like millions of armed soldiers. USSR collapse was also "coordinated" between elites of each republic and didn't actually remove those elites form power, so all of those examples prove my point.
    2. Russians were more free under Russian Empire. Leftists actually brought de-facto serfdom back to Russia in 20s and it remained such until 1960s.
    3.a. You need guns in homes for self-defense. Or because you find them neat. It should be up to the person if they want to own a gun, not anyone else.
    3.b: America doesn't have problems with guns, its an overblown issue by the media.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; August 29, 2022 at 10:09 AM.

  17. #1377
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    And we are back to: Agree to disagree... cause I disagree with most of what you said and just repeating what I said won't accomplish much.

    Still, I would go to 3b: That "overblown by the media" problem = USA having x5 to x7 the murders than other Western nations.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  18. #1378

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    @alhoon:

    Agree to disagree... cause I disagree with most of what you said and just repeating what I said won't accomplish much.
    Fair enough.
    USA having x5 to x7 the murders than other Western nations.
    That's because of overpopulated cities (that are typically run by anti-gun democrat administrations), organized crime and only way to stop that is to end "war on drugs".

  19. #1379
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That's because of overpopulated cities (that are typically run by anti-gun democrat administrations), organized crime and only way to stop that is to end "war on drugs".
    Netherlands, Germany etc are more ubranized and run by anti-gun administrations and they are more harsh on drugs than democrat-leaning states.
    And yet, they have much fewer murders.

    The ToS stops me from saying what is actually a good part of the reason though as it would be insulting to many Americans. It is true, but we can't say it.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  20. #1380

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Netherlands, Germany etc are more ubranized and run by anti-gun administrations and they are more harsh on drugs than democrat-leaning states.
    And yet, they have much fewer murders.
    Netherlands is not anti-drugs, they are more liberal on this stuff then Canada.
    Germany has quite liberal gun laws (I was surprised myself when I found out).
    The ToS stops me from saying what is actually a good part of the reason though as it would be insulting to many Americans. It is true, but we can't say it.
    My point is that if you remove the impact from drug-related organized crime caused by sclerotic anti-drug laws and remove the nightmarish shite-holes like San-Francisco, Portland or New York from the statistic, USA would probably be as safe as Benelux countries. Its not guns, its urban environments. London, Paris, Moscow and other cities in Europe have similar problems.

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