Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

[TheDarkKnight]

Edit: I did some digging on the mentioned IN education bill, which I assume is Bill 167. Contrary to the claim the legislation had "passed", it appears that the bill did not make it through the senate and has been shelved. Panic over.

Wrong.

167 is the Senate Bill that got thrown out because a Senator (you can guess which political party) made a stink about needing to be impartial when history teachers talk about "isms" (Nazism). The one I'm talking about is the basically identical House Bill that passed, as you can see in the article above.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...rs/9123302002/

That House bill will go to the Senate next. The state senate is ~80% Republican so I'd be surprised if it didn't pass.

@Pod

That's not an argument for keeping government schools; at best it's an argument for subsidizing private education, but something tells me you're against that too.

Yeah dude. Instead of coming together as a country to recognize actual problems and fix our public education, why don't we just completely extend our middle finger to the entire concept and subsidize private education instead! That's why charter schools are a shining beacon of hope and light in the education world

Again, public education is not perfect, but if you think we can fix the problem by just building more private/charter schools, you really don't understand the internal rot that is education as a whole in this country. Having 50 state standards that are also tinkered with by thousands of counties nationwide is hardly a winning formula for success, especially when a substantial number of elected officials would not care at all if education went the way of the dodo and are clearly working towards that goal. Educated kids can't see through the religious and political that is the right-wing after all .

As for your rant about the Aztec prayer, I didn't even hear about that within my circle of teachers, likely because it is currently a non-issue because it isn't going to be a requirement until 2029-2030. Especially since it was going to be optional. Are you really comparing that to the current incessant being pulled in the here and now?

"Help! My children might be given the choice of learning a chant in Nahuatl in the next decade! Help help we're being repressed!"

That being said, if the chant is truly religious in nature, by all means remove it. I doubt it will have a drastic effect on the class structure overall.

I'd be much more concerned about the a public school in West Virginia just tried to pull than any pearl clutching over Nahuatl chants...

Edit:

Podromos I noticed you bypassed my query about private schools and how they would treat SpEd students without any government oversight. I'm not going to allow that.

As far as I know, private schools only have to follow SpEd rules if they take any federal funding (usually Title I, and not all private schools take even that federal funding at all), but the quality of those services offered can be...well, poor. As in nearly non-existent. I know this from my observations where a parent pulled their kid to a private school because she didn't like ours and then went all shocked Pikachu face when her darling child had no access to SpEd services. We actually are having to do the testing for the child right now even though they are not our student anymore (a rule that you can thank the state/federal government for making a reality, even if they won't get any SpEd services as a result of it)

Please Podromos, tell me about how you would fix this overall issue under the rightwing dream of a no-government school system. Enlighten me. Because I could definitely see some broken states reverting to "No SpEd at all" situations if they were allowed to. Remember it took a literal act of Congress to mandate that education in the first place...

Edit 2: I should specify IDEA was not the first. Education for All Handicapped Children and Rehabilitation Act came first. But again, acts of Congress...Imagine how poorly SpEd students would have continued to be treated nationwide without the government oversight Pod seems to hate for some reason.

[Cope]

Wrong.

167 is the Senate Bill that got thrown out because a Senator (you can guess which political party) made a stink about needing to be impartial when history teachers talk about "isms" (Nazism). The one I'm talking about is the basically identical House Bill that passed, as you can see in the article above.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...rs/9123302002/

That House bill will go to the Senate next. The state senate is ~80% Republican so I'd be surprised if it didn't pass.

SB167 was already extensively discussed in this thread here (hence the assumption that's what was being referred to). If HB1134 is "basically identical" to SB167 then there should be no difficulty in pointing to the specific provision(s) which are troubling. In the prior discussion, the bill's detractor bizarrely complained that the text forbade educators from affirming that students should feel negatively about their identity characteristics.

[TheDarkKnight]

I really need to stop assuming I don't need to spell things out:

- Creating a curriculum advisory committee that is top-heavy with parents. ANY parents. 60% to 40%. Meaning Jonny Sr. who barely passed high school English and thinks the Civil Rights Movement was a step too far has more input on curriculum than actual people who are actually involved in education. Again, if you work in the field, you know why this won't work. This should not need to be explained deeper than this. (see below)

- Posting lessons online for lesson approval. Already discussed this. Parents are generally not qualified to understand how lesson plans work, and having to change/adapt lessons to suit the needs of parents will lead to nothing of value happening. They also don't need to be able to explain why in any sort of academic sense. Just say "I don't like this" and that's it. Also a fantastic way for bad-faith parents to interfere in the education process. Will also make discussing current events difficult if not impossible in appropriate classes.

Also, who the is going to pay all the teachers for the extra time this will surely need?

- "that any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of the individual's sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, national origin or political affiliation." is vague. Like, hilariously vague. You could probably get away with successfully suing a teacher for reading the "I Have A Dream" speech under this clause if the judge is amoral enough. Could probably sue ME for saying "You know...the Catholic Church kinda sorta made slaves of the Native Americans in California and that's not cool" if this anti-academic nonsense were to happen in California. We all know what the aim of this portion of the bill is. Let's not insult our collective intelligence by pretending otherwise.

Again, let's not forget why bad faith politics is putting education front and center in this cycle. CRT So Scawwy is the next boogie man for the right wing, and it is beyond frustrating that the outrage machine is driving these people out in droves to go against things (that aren't even happening!!!!) they can neither define nor understand.

Edit:
An analogy to the advisory committees...Would you want to cross a bridge, any bridge, designed and built by a team where 60% of the people are not qualified, trained, or educated to know what the they are doing?

[Cope]

I really need to stop assuming I don't need to spell things out:

- Creating a curriculum advisory committee that is top-heavy with parents. ANY parents. 60% to 40%. Meaning Jonny Sr. who barely passed high school English and thinks the Civil Rights Movement was a step too far has more input on curriculum than actual people who are actually involved in education. Again, if you work in the field, you know why this won't work. This should not need to be explained deeper than this.

- Posting lessons online for lesson approval. Already discussed this. Parents are generally not qualified to understand how lesson plans work, and having to change/adapt lessons to suit the needs of parents will lead to nothing of value happening. They also don't need to be able to explain why in any sort of academic sense. Just say "I don't like this" and that's it. Also a fantastic way for bad-faith parents to interfere in the education process. Will also make discussing current events difficult if not impossible in appropriate classes.

Also, who the is going to pay all the teachers for the extra time this will surely need?

Please cite the specific provision(s) (I've provided the text) for discussion. I cannot properly address the complaints without knowing precisely what is being complained about.

So far as I can tell (since it has not been specified) the first objection refers to Chapter 12.5, Sec. 4. (a). This does indeed provide that 60% of the advisory committee shall be “parents of students”. However, as is evident from its name, the committee appears only to be advisory; it may compel the governing body to consider its recommendations but, as per Sec. 6. (a) The governing body may accept, reject, or otherwise modify a recommendation made by the advisory committee. Thus, anxiety that "Jonny Sr." will be taking over the curriculum seems at best, alarmist.

In generic terms, parental involvement and transparency in education are paramount for the same reason that a jury of peers is paramount in criminal justice. The suggestion that a majority (or anything like that) of parents are unreasonable and/or "bad-faith" and/or unqualified to be involved with their children's learning is untrue. The belief to the contrary rather evidences why such legislation may, in fact, be necessary.

"that any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of the individual's sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, national origin or political affiliation." is vague. Like, hilariously vague. You could probably get away with successfully suing a teacher for reading the "I Have A Dream" speech under this clause if the judge is amoral enough. Could probably sue ME for saying "You know...the Catholic Church kinda sorta made slaves of the Native Americans in California and that's not cool" if this anti-academic nonsense were to happen in California. We all know what the aim of this portion of the bill is. Let's not insult our collective intelligence by pretending otherwise.

The language of the provision mirrors the that of the Civil Rights Act. Its objective is to prevent educators from affirming that students should feel psychological distress on account of their identity characteristics. Opposition to such a measure implies a belief that identity-based discrimination/chastisement is appropriate in schools.

The argument about judicial amorality or malpractice (in a civil suit a defendant has a right to a jury) is applicable to the enforcement of any legislation, so has no specific relevance to this bill. It is the equivalent of suggesting that the CRA should be abolished on the basis that it encourages fraudulent claims of discrimination.

Again, let's not forget why bad faith politics is putting education front and center in this cycle. CRT So Scawwy is the next boogie man for the right wing, and it is beyond frustrating that the outrage machine is driving these people out in droves to go against things (that aren't even happening!!!!) they can neither define nor understand.

If educators aren't discriminating/chastising students on the basis of the characteristics outlined in the text (in accordance with the claim that CRT/CRT inspired tenets aren't being taught), then this bill poses no threat.

[Heathen Hammer]

Dudes complaining about customers having a say in service they pay for is hilarious. They are parents, their taxes pay for this and only "educators" that are upset are just those that they can't pontificate their personal private ideology to students on taxpayer's dime anymore. If you want to teach marxist talking points(ort any other ones) so badly then open a private school. Don't have the moneybags for that? Then shut up and teach what the parents that pay your salary tell you to teach.

[Infidel144]

Dudes complaining about customers having a say in service they pay for is hilarious. They are parents, their taxes pay for this and only "educators" that are upset are just those that they can't pontificate their personal private ideology to students on taxpayer's dime anymore. If you want to teach marxist talking points(ort any other ones) so badly then open a private school. Don't have the moneybags for that? Then shut up and teach what the parents that pay your salary tell you to teach.

No, no. Parents are "ignorant" and "barely passed high school English"...
These parents probably think doing something for 'wub and giggles' means:

PHRASEvulgar slang
For no reason except to amuse oneself; for fun.

and not a phrase that means "including everything".
"

[Coughdrop addict]

So if these bills pass, can I say I am offended that students are not being recruited into BLM and Antifa?

Or force them to teach that I am God and have divine power over all creation by saying it discriminates against me if they don't?

Or make them to close their football programs by claiming it offends me?

[Heathen Hammer]

I wonder what happens to McDonalds worker who when asked for Bigmac asks "why don't you try fillet'o'fish instead?". Same with educators. Parents are paying (via taxes) customers. You either do what customer wants or you don't offer that good or service.

[EmperorBatman999]

Dudes complaining about customers having a say in service they pay for is hilarious. They are parents, their taxes pay for this and only "educators" that are upset are just those that they can't pontificate their personal private ideology to students on taxpayer's dime anymore. If you want to teach marxist talking points(ort any other ones) so badly then open a private school. Don't have the moneybags for that? Then shut up and teach what the parents that pay your salary tell you to teach.

But there is a certain degree of trust buying most products that the outcome will be of high quality and will not require direct supervision.

To use your McDonald's analogy: you might order a Big Mac (or Fillet-o'-Fish), but you aren't allowed to go behind to the back of the house and micromanage the fry cook, nor would any sane person desire to: there is a degree of trust that the cook knows what he is doing and will serve your order. Allow the State Health Inspector to pay a visit behind and see if all is in good working order.

So really, I see this as a loss of trust in the entire education system. I suppose the smart solution to keeping particularly vitriolic politics like CRT out of school is to specifically vet teachers and make them swear to not execute their personal agenda in the classroom, including inspecting even tenured faculty (although I suspect that young teachers of the millennial generation are more inclined to start the CRT diatribe in their class).

It is a fine line to negotiate between the matter of teacher control vs. autonomy. On one hand, the growing control of state departments of education and local school boards has been suppressing teacher creativity and making it more difficult for them to develop engaging lessons, but on the other hand, teachers need to be held to some kind of standard that ensures that their lessons are pedagogically useful. In this case, you can discuss race (indeed, you should in a US, or any History class, discuss race), but you don't need to harp on CRT preaching that white people are inherently evil.

[Coughdrop addict]

But there is a certain degree of trust buying most products that the outcome will be of high quality and will not require direct supervision.

To use your McDonald's analogy: you might order a Big Mac (or Fillet-o'-Fish), but you aren't allowed to go behind to the back of the house and micromanage the fry cook, nor would any sane person desire to: there is a degree of trust that the cook knows what he is doing and will serve your order. Allow the State Health Inspector to pay a visit behind and see if all is in good working order.

So really, I see this as a loss of trust in the entire education system. I suppose the smart solution to keeping particularly vitriolic politics like CRT out of school is to specifically vet teachers and make them swear to not execute their personal agenda in the classroom, including inspecting even tenured faculty (although I suspect that young teachers of the millennial generation are more inclined to start the CRT diatribe in their class).

It is a fine line to negotiate between the matter of teacher control vs. autonomy. On one hand, the growing control of state departments of education and local school boards has been suppressing teacher creativity and making it more difficult for them to develop engaging lessons, but on the other hand, teachers need to be held to some kind of standard that ensures that their lessons are pedagogically useful. In this case, you can discuss race (indeed, you should in a US, or any History class, discuss race), but you don't need to harp on CRT preaching that white people are inherently evil.

None of these lessons or schools are teaching CRT. It's simply politicians on the right lying and claiming anything they don't like, such as saying slavery and Jim Crow were bad things, is CRT. If I had to guess why it's because they want to sabotage education for the middle and working classes to make sure they cannot go on to challenge the right-wing aristocracy.

And unfortunately their plan is working:

26% of Americans believe that the Sun orbits the Earth (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...th-survey-says).
28% of Americans believe that Bill Gates is using the Covid-19 vaccine to install microchips in people (https://news.yahoo.com/new-yahoo-new...152843610.html).
24% of Americans believe that 5G mobile networks are responsible for cancer/Covid-19, and/or are part of a UN conspiracy to depopulate the planet (https://www.inmyarea.com/internet/telecom-conspiracies).
25% of Americans believe that the 2020 election was rigged (https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...May%202021.pdf).
24% of Americans believe that QAnon claims are at least somewhat accurate (https://morningconsult.com/2020/10/1...ia-qanon-poll/).

[Cope]

There is evidence of CRT existing within educational institutions and it being promoted explicitly as a matter of public policy. Here is one such example (with extensive documentation) from Virginia which was exposed around the time of the gubernatorial election. A columnist in the Washington Post argued that Democrats had been lying about the issue.

[Infidel144]

There is evidence of CRT existing within educational institutions and it being promoted explicitly as a matter of public policy. Here is one such example (with extensive documentation) from Virginia which was exposed around the time of the gubernatorial election. A columnist in the Washington Post argued that Democrats had been lying about the issue.

As I recall, when this was gone over in the liberal rant thread, quotes from the CR theorists themselves were provided acknowledging that CRT is being taught in schools.

[Lord Thesaurian]

CRT is like defunding police or crack pipe kits or any of the other far left initiatives Democrats have signed onto: it’s the greatest idea ever and utterly necessary, but also doesn’t exist except as a Republican boogeyman.

[Prodromos]

Podromos I noticed you bypassed my query about private schools and how they would treat SpEd students without any government oversight..

Lack of time/energy limits my ability to debate people online. I usually don't respond to walls of text or multiple points/questions in one post.

[Coughdrop addict]

Let's be honest here.

The sole reason this is even an issue is because the average Republican voter doesn't want their kids learning that racism and slavery are bad things. It's hard enough indoctrinating your kids into the belief that other people are either meant to be their slaves or vermin to be exterminated based on their skin colors thanks to those mean old liberals and their funny ideas about personhood NOT being a function of skin color.

Meanwhile the Republican politicians see this as the first step in destroying public education entirely and restricting education to the mega-rich only, because illiterate serfs will be much easier to control and exploit.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Let's be honest here.
It's hard enough indoctrinating your kids into the belief that other people are either meant to be their slaves or vermin to be exterminated based on their skin colors thanks to those mean old liberals and their funny ideas about personhood NOT being a function of skin color.

Literally no one believes this.

[Coughdrop addict]

Literally no one believes this.

Then why do they object so hard to kids learning about slavery or the civil rights movement? Do you honestly think they believe that learning about Emmett Till will cause white children horrible psychological trauma? No, it is a feeble cover for their true beliefs, the beliefs that have defined conservatism in the US for decades, that people with certain skin colors are not truly human and should not have equal rights. No amount of spin or fearmongering lies about CRT can distract from that truth.

[Heathen Hammer]

Its like teaching Holocaust denial and pro-Axis version of history in schools, and when parents complain, ask why are parents complaining about their kids learning horrors of communism.

[alhoon]

Literally no one believes this.

+1

Then why do they object so hard to kids learning about slavery or the civil rights movement? Do you honestly think they believe that learning about Emmett Till will cause white children horrible psychological trauma? No, it is a feeble cover for their true beliefs, the beliefs that have defined conservatism in the US for decades, that people with certain skin colors are not truly human and should not have equal rights. No amount of spin or fearmongering lies about CRT can distract from that truth.

Because they don't want their kids brainwashed and they don't want their kids to feel guilty for what their great great grandfathers did. They don't want their kids to be defined by their "guilty" white skin. They want to fight the racism directed towards white people... and they go too far.

If the perfect teaching is 10, progressives push for 30 so conservatives push for -20.
Does that end up as 30-20 = 10?

In most cases, no, it doesn't.
It ends up as 25 in progressive strongholds, where white people are disadvantaged and try to pass as black people or minorities to get ahead.
Or it ends up as -5 in conservative strongholds where books are being burned and words are being banned which drives me crazy.

I can live easier in an immoral dystopia where people that claim there are just 2 genders are ostracized and pink-haired idiots shout down white people or castrate white men than a dystopia where far rightwing gangs either behind hoods or openly, do acts of violence and mass shootings, trying to prevent history from being taught .

[PointOfViewGun]

Perfect teaching means you ignore important things like slavery in USA?