Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

[PointOfViewGun]

Germany has a federal gun registry. One requires a license to buy a gun at all cases. Applicants need to establish things like trustworthiness, personal adequacy, expert knowledge and necessity. A background check that also checks for mental or health problems bars someone from getting a gun. It's quite well-regulated there.

[Heathen Hammer]

Gun registries are for legally purchased guns. What percentage of gun crime in US is committed with legally purchased firearms?

[PointOfViewGun]

Gun registries are for legally purchased guns. What percentage of gun crime in US is committed with legally purchased firearms?

Virtually all guns start as legally purchased guns. The data you're asking for USA is largely unknowable as there is no proper recording of guns with many sales going unrecorded. However, some studied put the number at half or more.

[Heathen Hammer]

The data you're asking for USA is largely unknowable as there is no proper recording of guns with many sales going unrecorded.

Okay, so you admit that gun registry doesn't help then.

[PointOfViewGun]

Okay, so you admit that gun registry doesn't help then.

Yeah, absence of a proper gun registry doesn't help.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yeah, absence of a proper gun registry doesn't help.

And we come back in circle again, since in order to prove this claim you need to prove that majority of gun crime is committed by legally purchased firearms. And no "every firearm was legal at some point" isn't a valid argument.

[PointOfViewGun]

And we come back in circle again, since in order to prove this claim you need to prove that majority of gun crime is committed by legally purchased firearms. And no "every firearm was legal at some point" isn't a valid argument.

I don't really need to prove that. Keep in mind we're on a tangent of yours to avoid admitting that Germany has quite extensive regulations concerning guns along with much lower gun crime.

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't really need to prove that. Keep in mind we're on a tangent of yours to avoid admitting that Germany has quite extensive regulations concerning guns along with much lower gun crime.

You made the claim that gun registry would help, so why are you now backing away from it? If gun registry helps, then it wouldn't be hard to provide statistic of where legaly-puurchased firearms constitute majority of gun crime.

[PointOfViewGun]

You made the claim that gun registry would help, so why are you now backing away from it? If gun registry helps, then it wouldn't be hard to provide statistic of where legaly-puurchased firearms constitute majority of gun crime.

Let me get this right. If existence of a currently nonexistent measure was useful you would expect to see its nonexistent results good or bad. Amazing logic you got there. I made the very obvious point about gun registries. You made the claim about Germany having very relaxed gun laws.

[Heathen Hammer]

Let me get this right. If existence of a currently nonexistent measure was useful you would expect to see its nonexistent results good or bad. Amazing logic you got there. I made the very obvious point about gun registries.

You claimed that gun registry would help, but you also yourself admit that you can't even confirm if legally purchased firearms are even prevalent in gun crime statistics. Also how would it help against 3dprinted guns or guns that were imported from abroad?

[PointOfViewGun]

You claimed that gun registry would help, but you also yourself admit that you can't even confirm if legally purchased firearms are even prevalent in gun crime statistics. Also how would it help against 3dprinted guns or guns that were imported from abroad?

You clearly fail to see the irony in your request. Yet, we know that legally owned guns are prevalent which I already pointed out. What is your claim precisely and quantitatively so that when I show how wrong you are you don't try to jump away?

Who says lets not regulate imported or 3D printed guns?

[alhoon]

My point is that if you remove the impact from drug-related organized crime caused by sclerotic anti-drug laws and remove the nightmarish shite-holes like San-Francisco, Portland or New York from the statistic, USA would probably be as safe as Benelux countries. Its not guns, its urban environments. London, Paris, Moscow and other cities in Europe have similar problems.

That is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homicide_rate

Arkansas, Wisconsin, South and North Dakota have practically no urban cities. And yet, their murder per capita is an order of magnitude higher than the European areas.


You said London and Paris... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_London#Homicide

Number of homicides in 2017 / Homicide Rate / Population (thousands)
London / 118 / 1.3 / 8,825
Berlin[35] / 91 / 2.6 / 3,500
Madrid[35] / 39 / 1.2 / 3,200
Rome (2016)[35] / 21 / 0.7 / 2,900
Amsterdam[35] / 19 / 2.3 / 813

Another thing... Amsterdam with its free drugs is waaaay above European average. I mean, it has just 60% less murders than USA's average! That is horrific.
Berlin has no excuse to be honest. But it is a large city.

As you can see, clearly the Urban environment in Europe is much greater than the rural gun-lands of USA.

And take a look at the states with the highest murder per capita. Generally, the more gun-loving the state, the greater the number of murders per capita. Illinois is a start exception, and that's because of Chicago. There are a few outliers but the trend is clear, I think.


EDIT:

Germany has a federal gun registry. One requires a license to buy a gun at all cases.

Ohhhh, that is why Berlin has so high murder ratio! They have guns. Sure, registries help, I don't disagree. But clearly, something is wrong with Berlin.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yet, we know that legally owned guns are prevalent which I already pointed out.

Source?

That is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homicide_rate

Arkansas, Wisconsin, South and North Dakota have practically no urban cities. And yet, their murder per capita is an order of magnitude higher than the European areas.

New England seems to be quite safe despite practically non-existent regulations.
Also your list doesn't specify where those crimes occur.

You said London and Paris... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_London#Homicide

Number of homicides in 2017 / Homicide Rate / Population (thousands)
London / 118 / 1.3 / 8,825
Berlin[35] / 91 / 2.6 / 3,500
Madrid[35] / 39 / 1.2 / 3,200
Rome (2016)[35] / 21 / 0.7 / 2,900
Amsterdam[35] / 19 / 2.3 / 813

Another thing... Amsterdam with its free drugs is waaaay above European average. I mean, it has just 60% less murders than USA's average! That is horrific.
Berlin has no excuse to be honest. But it is a large city.

That's not due to drugs, but due to usual crime-causing stuff like immigration from third world, left-liberal laws that prioritize criminals over victims, etc.
But yeah, rural areas with their gang-toting rednecks seem to be much safer then progressive liberal safehavens in Baltimore, London, New York or SF.

And take a look at the states with the highest murder per capita. Generally, the more gun-loving the state, the greater the number of murders per capita. Illinois is a start exception, and that's because of Chicago. There are a few outliers but the trend is clear, I think.

LOL no, Chicago has insane anti-gun laws and its run by a DC-villain looking Democrat.
Least safe areas in US are major cities governed by Democrats. Just because its in a red state is irrelevant.

[PointOfViewGun]

Source?

Number of mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and July 2022, by legality of shooter's weapons; 66.4% of guns used in mass shootings were obtained legally.

U.S. Department of Justics - Firearm Violence, 1993-2011

In 2004, among state prison inmates who possessed a gun at the time of offense, fewer than 2% bought their firearm at a flea market or gun show, about 10% purchased it from a retail store or pawnshop, 37% obtained it from family or friends, and another 40% obtained it from an illegal source (table 14). This was similar to the percentage distribution in 1997.

Legal status and source of offenders' firearms in states with the least stringent criteria for gun ownership

Results Nearly three of ten gun offenders (73 of 253 or 28.9%) were legal gun possessors but would have been prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms when committing their most recent offense if their states had stricter prohibitions. Offenders who were already prohibited under current law acquired their gun from a licensed dealer, where a background check is required, five times less often than offenders who were not prohibited (3.9% vs. 19.9%; χ2=13.31; p≤0.001). Nearly all (96.1%) offenders who were legally prohibited, acquired their gun from a supplier not required to conduct a background check.

Conclusions Stricter gun ownership laws would have made firearm possession illegal for many state prison inmates who used a gun to commit a crime. Requiring all gun sales to be subject to a background check would make it more difficult for these offenders to obtain guns.

[Heathen Hammer]

Goal posts switching much? Mass shootings are a drop in the sea of violent crime in US.
DoJ link confirms that legal weapons were not used in majority of cases.
As for the last study, I don't think its moral to take away one's right to defend himself after one has served his debt to society.

[PointOfViewGun]

Goal posts switching much? Mass shootings are a drop in the sea of violent crime in US.
DoJ link confirms that legal weapons were not used in majority of cases.
As for the last study, I don't think its moral to take away one's right to defend himself after one has served his debt to society.

No moving of goal post on my part whatsoever. We're actually witnessing two moving of goal posts from your end. One is your deflection from your claim that Germany has very relaxed gun regulations. The other is that while earlier you argued about prevalence, now you're arguing about majority use. All links show how highly prevalent use of legally obtained guns are in crimes.

[Heathen Hammer]

The links you posted literally show the opposite, except for mass shooting one, which is switching goal posts because mass shootings are a fringe tiny statistic within overall violent crime rates.
You claimed that gun registries of legal weapons would help, and then you posted link confirming that legal firearms were not used in majority of firearm crime cases, which literally debunks your claim.

[PointOfViewGun]

The links you posted literally show the opposite, except for mass shooting one, which is switching goal posts because mass shootings are a fringe tiny statistic within overall violent crime rates.
You claimed that gun registries of legal weapons would help, and then you posted link confirming that legal firearms were not used in majority of firearm crime cases, which literally debunks your claim.

Hey! Gainsaying is not an argument. In all seriousness, you don't know what prevalent means don't you?

[Heathen Hammer]

Hey! Gainsaying is not an argument. In all seriousness, you don't know what prevalent means don't you?

Again:
1) mass shootings do not constitute majority of gun crime, so that statistic is simply irrelevant within the scope of discussion.
2) Second link confirms that legal weapons do not constitute majority of gun crime
3) Has to do with convict gun rights, also not very relevant to the scope of discussion.
Hope that helped.

[PointOfViewGun]

Again:
1) mass shootings do not constitute majority of gun crime, so that statistic is simply irrelevant within the scope of discussion.
2) Second link confirms that legal weapons do not constitute majority of gun crime
3) Has to do with convict gun rights, also not very relevant to the scope of discussion.
Hope that helped.

Not sure why you think repeating the same failed straw man arguments would help.