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Thread: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

  1. #441
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You do realize Robert E. Lee could only be considered traitor if he sided with Union, since he was from a Confederate state? USA and CSA were two different countries at the time, since CSA declared its independence from USA.
    He was an officer of the Army of the United States, where he swore an oath to protect the United States and its Constitution. Although he was also a citizen of Virginia, the status of statehood citizenship isn't legally that important (the Constitution implies that a citizen of one state is equal to the citizens of any other state, in those states, and so therefore state citizenship isn't important), and national citizenship supersedes state citizenship. He was still in the service of the US Army as of succession, and only afterwards decided to go with Virginia.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; September 16, 2021 at 04:20 PM.

  2. #442
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Treason implies abetting or aiding an enemy. Secession can't be considered treason by that definition.
    And yet, it is usually considered treason... unless you win.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  3. #443
    irontaino's Avatar What's up danger?
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Well, if you insist, but I'm doing it with the caveat that some moderator may consider it off topic. With that said, however, it is typical of leftists who haven't the slightest clue about American history to make assumptions about historical realities. I just saw a poll whose results claimed that 61% of Americans could not name the three branches of government; that speaks to how poorly our public education system is doing it primary job. Even the Founders, such as Thomas Jefferson believed states had a right to succeed.

    https://classroom.synonym.com/advoca...ion-16500.html
    Nowhere in there does it say that the Confederacy was ever recognized. Also, I see you're going with the (dead wrong) state's rights narrative, after crying revisionist history.
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  4. #444

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Everyone has the right to succeed. This is America after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  5. #445
    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Nowhere in there does it say that the Confederacy was ever recognized.
    Yes but consider this. My nephew when he was three entered the kitchen and plundered the dried apricots (a favourite treat). His mother rebuked him "you know you're not supposed to eat them without asking" to which he replied "I asked myself, and I said yes!". I think a three-year-old mentality is about right for the Lost Cause rabble.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Also, I see you're going with the (dead wrong) state's rights narrative, after crying revisionist history.
    I mean if we're talking revisionist history a the great majority of memorials to the beaten rebs were put up in the 20th century, after their contemporaries did not see fit to memorialise them. Such disrespect these revisionist Lost Cause and KKK types have. These backwards types fail the Darwinian test, its survival of the fittest and the slave addicted Southern elite was not fit.
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  6. #446

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Usually it's pretty transparent that people defending Lee and succession are only doing so because they agree or at least sympathize with the politics of the Confederacy, mostly the right to own Blacks as slaves. Had the south instead succeeded to form the Marxist States of America I don't think you'd see nearly as much revisionist history and lost cause nonsense from the right.

  7. #447

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    https://www.post-gazette.com/news/cr...s/202109150119

    I'm guessing it's so Biden voters can be targeted for harassment and intimidation, or just deleted from the voter rolls.

  8. #448

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    He was an officer of the Army of the United States, where he swore an oath to protect the United States and its Constitution. Although he was also a citizen of Virginia, the status of statehood citizenship isn't legally that important (the Constitution implies that a citizen of one state is equal to the citizens of any other state, in those states, and so therefore state citizenship isn't important), and national citizenship supersedes state citizenship. He was still in the service of the US Army as of succession, and only afterwards decided to go with Virginia.
    That still doesn't make him a traitor. Lee is kinda similar to Mannerheim, who originally served in Russian army, but ended up leading Finnish army against the Soviets in Winter War and Continuation war. Much Like Lee's allegiance to his state superseded his allegiance to Washington, Mannerheim's allegiance to Finland superseded his initial vows to Russian government.
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And yet, it is usually considered treason... unless you win.
    Tyrants typically consider all opposition to themselves as treason.

  9. #449
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Nowhere in there does it say that the Confederacy was ever recognized. Also, I see you're going with the (dead wrong) state's rights narrative, after crying revisionist history.
    In post 434 you asked for a citation supporting the fact that most Americans considered secession legal. I gave you one. Now you're claiming you asked for something else.

  10. #450
    irontaino's Avatar What's up danger?
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    In post 434 you asked for a citation supporting the fact that most Americans considered secession legal.
    Your source doesn't even say that. Nowhere does it say that many in the north, let alone most Americans, considered secession legal.
    Last edited by irontaino; September 17, 2021 at 12:42 PM.
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  11. #451
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That still doesn't make him a traitor. Lee is kinda similar to Mannerheim, who originally served in Russian army, but ended up leading Finnish army against the Soviets in Winter War and Continuation war. Much Like Lee's allegiance to his state superseded his allegiance to Washington, Mannerheim's allegiance to Finland superseded his initial vows to Russian government.
    That is a stretch to compare, and not only just because the Finns won in the end.

    First, the cultural differences between Finland and Russia are much more vast than the Southern States and the Northern States. Although Mannerheim was from a Swedish dynasty and was known for speaking Finnish rather poorly, he identified more with Finland than Russia. Mannerheim joined the Finns at a time when national self-determination was a popular movement in political and social thought, providing an immediate justification for the Finns to seek independence from Russia. Looking at the United States, although commentators like Tocqueville, conversely, had noted that the American South was culturally different from the North, nobody considered the South to be an outright foreign culture: indeed, the South shared a language and common general origin with the Northern States.

    Secondly, Finland did not consensually join Russia, but was rather always a colony, first under Sweden and then ceded to Russia following the Russo-Swedish War of 1807. As the Finns did not get a say about the conditions wherein they'd live and serve a foreign empire, it made a rebellion against said empire more morally justifiable because they were not violating a voluntary contract. Virginia, meanwhile, had ratified the United States Constitution and thereby joined the Union when it was drafted in 1787, and had thus consented to the terms of the Union and agreed to recognize and cooperate as part of the federal government and as a state in relation to twelve-plus other states.

    Thirdly, Finland rebelled against Russia following a drastic regime change. Finland had been a colony under the Russian Empire, but the Russian Empire had become liquidated and was effectively null and void following the onset of the October Revolution. Any terms the Finns may have had with the Russian Empire also became null and void when that government had ceased to effectively exist.

  12. #452
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Your source doesn't even say that. Nowhere does it say that many in the north, let alone most Americans, considered secession legal.
    Are you saying that this language only applied to people living in the South:

    Both the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781, and the United States Constitution, ratified in 1789, established a union of sovereign states under the governance of a federal system. This union was widely understood by both the states and the federal government to be voluntary, and the Constitution was interpreted to reinforce this perspective. At the same time, the founding fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, recognized the states' right to secede. Although he did not advocate the exercise of that right, he acknowledged that the entitlement remained with the states and was a right that continued throughout the initial drafts of the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.



  13. #453
    irontaino's Avatar What's up danger?
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Thomas Jefferson is neither many people in the north, nor most of the country.
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  14. #454
    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    ...
    Thirdly, Finland rebelled against Russia following a drastic regime change. Finland had been a colony under the Russian Empire, but the Russian Empire had become liquidated and was effectively null and void following the onset of the October Revolution. Any terms the Finns may have had with the Russian Empire also became null and void when that government had ceased to effectively exist.
    That's not what happened. IIRC Finland was granted independence in 1918.

    There is not the remotest connection between Lee's clear treason (pardoned by the US) and Mannerheim's service to his Tsar, and when the Tsardom was dissolved, his service to Finland (declared by the Finns and granted by the provisional Government).
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  15. #455
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    That's not what happened. IIRC Finland was granted independence in 1918.

    There is not the remotest connection between Lee's clear treason (pardoned by the US) and Mannerheim's service to his Tsar, and when the Tsardom was dissolved, his service to Finland (declared by the Finns and granted by the provisional Government).
    While Finland was initially granted independence by the Bolsheviks at the very end of 1917, Finland was still quickly pulled into the events of the Russian Revolution when fighting broke out between Finnish Reds and Whites. Finland was thus a participant in the Russian Civil War, and the Finnish Civil War was an extension of the Russian Civil War, where the Bolsheviks supported Finnish communists. The Finnish Whites wanted complete sovereignty from whichever Russian regime, and rejected the Bolsheviks in ideology and their expansionist designs to keep Finland within Russian political control.

    If the Reds had won the Finnish Civil War, they likely would have created a Finnish Soviet Republic and then joined the Soviet Union, as the Bolsheviks had created non-Russian Soviet republics for Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Georgia, and etc.

  16. #456
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    So it seems we're both aware of the course of events, and we can agree in no case did Mannerheim break his oath to anyone?

    Lee=/= Mannerheim in any way shape or form. Finland was an independent state when the Bolsheviks attempted to re-attach it to their empire.
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  17. #457
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Thomas Jefferson is neither many people in the north, nor most of the country.
    He was a founding father. Most Americans at the time formed their ideas about the republic from the founding fathers, the Federalist Papers and the Constitution. Your lack of knowledge on this exemplifies just how sad a shape our present educational system is.

  18. #458
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    He was a founding father. Most Americans at the time formed their ideas about the republic from the founding fathers, the Federalist Papers and the Constitution. Your lack of knowledge on this exemplifies just how sad a shape our present educational system is.
    So then you have no actual citations that many people in the north considered secession legal?
    Fact:Apples taste good, and you can throw them at people if you're being attacked
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  19. #459
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    He was a founding father. Most Americans at the time formed their ideas about the republic from the founding fathers, the Federalist Papers and the Constitution. Your lack of knowledge on this exemplifies just how sad a shape our present educational system is.
    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    So then you have no actual citations that many people in the north considered secession legal?
    It is worth noting that the arguments of Jefferson's camp tended to be on the losing side of the Constitutional debate in Anapolis in 1787. Actually, Jefferson didn't have much of an impact on the conference as he was serving as the ambassador to France, but his ideological allies present at the Convention tended to lose repeatedly versus Hamilton and Madison's urgings for a strong, concrete governmental compact between the states. The sparse, decentralized model Jefferson had wanted showed its failing in the Articles of Confederation. Beside some populist political revivals like under Jackson’s presidency, the federal government has always tended towards the centralist Hamiltonian model over the libertarian Jeffersonian style.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; September 18, 2021 at 05:40 PM.

  20. #460
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    So then you have no actual citations that many people in the north considered secession legal?
    The citation I gave concerned all the states. both North and South. Aside from the obvious fact that the war did not start on account of the act of secession should be sufficient evidence. Where are all the articles of the time claiming the South committed treason by succeeding? Lincoln didn't declare war on the Southern states until Sumner was fired on because he knew he had no clear Constitutional standing.

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