The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

[conon394]

Its not entirely clear in plane reading that you can assume the serpent is equivalent to your Manichaeism Satan.

So, every word that comes out of your mouth or put in writing is exactly what God has placed in you to say

So god punished all of his creation for an action he made his sock puppets commit? You are avoiding my my question if god made everything and it was good than the serpent was good...

[basics]

conon394,

Well having built armies of British and French soldiers and when finished I could look at them and say they are good yet the French I made to be my enemy and Napoleon the evil one who had to be defeated. God's story is not unlike that but as it is one of a Supernatural nature His chief enemy also was supernatural and so Diablos or Satan was that figure.

[conon394]

conon394,

Well having built armies of British and French soldiers and when finished I could look at them and say they are good yet the French I made to be my enemy and Napoleon the evil one who had to be defeated. God's story is not unlike that but as it is one of a Supernatural nature His chief enemy also was supernatural and so Diablos or Satan was that figure.

Umm nothing makes the Serpent Satan. Nothing says he was not good - god made him, and nothing makes any sense unless he and the humans have free will.

[basics]

conon394,

Then you haven't read the story properly because it reads that all fell into sin and put under the power of Satan meaning there is no free will by which man could extract himself from. So bad was the fall that the expression dead in your sin came to be written.

[conon394]

Then you haven't read the story properly because it reads that all fell into sin and put under the power of Satan meaning there is no free will by which man could extract himself from. So bad was the fall that the expression dead in your sin came to be written.

You kinda avoided addressing my point. No Satan reference and you seem to want t avid you Christianity is a duelist religion. But whatever... But my you understanding they did not fall into sin but simply were programed to. Actually I could off be on the Dualism since sin seems to exist outside god and be external and absolute force beyond god in your view

[basics]

conon394,

Are you suggesting that the serpent was not the express impersonage of Satan?

[conon394]

conon394,

Are you suggesting that the serpent was not the express impersonage of Satan?

More or less yes. That is not apparent from the story, nor the implied dualism you inject into it either.

[Cyclops]

More or less yes. That is not apparent from the story, nor the implied dualism you inject into it either.

I mean if the Serpent in Eden was Satan, surely the Bible would have called it Satan and not lied about it by calling it another name. Its unscriptural to call the serpent Satan. Then again the bible so often contradicts itself you could say a lot of it is also unscriptural.

[basics]

Cyclops,

The Bible does not lie about the serpent being Satan, what it does tell is that everything in the garden was good, peaceful until this serpent by the power of Satan persuaded Eve to eat the fruit by suggesting that God didn't mean what He said on the matter.

[conon394]

what it does tell is that everything in the garden was good, peaceful until this serpent by the power of Satan

No mention of Satan again... Also your dualism is creeping in. The bible says god made everything and it was good. You are implying an externality to god which you later don't allow. Also we are back to free will did Eve have it?

[Cyclops]

Cyclops,

The Bible does not lie about the serpent being Satan,

I agree. Nowhere does the Bible call the serpent in the garden Satan. Why do you contradict scripture?

what it does tell is that everything in the garden was good, peaceful until this serpent by the power of Satan

No mention of Satan in Genesis. he doesn't appear until Numbers. Why are you misquoting scripture?.

persuaded Eve to eat the fruit by suggesting that God didn't mean what He said on the matter.

The serpent says nothing about God's meaning, please stop misquoting scripture. God says "in the day thou eatest thereof, on that day you will surely die" (Genesis 2:17). The serpent says "Ye shall not surely die For God doth know in that in the day ye eat thereof you eyes will be opened, and ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3: 5-6). She eats and does not die that day. In Genesis 3:22 God says "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". God himself confirms the serpent did not lie. He also confirms Adam (and possibly Eve) has become a God, and throws him out of the Garden.

In this episode God lies, and the serpent tells the truth, God admits it, and you claim that makes the serpent Satan with no scriptural authority. Do you have a scriptural answer to this? Nothing about your own conversion please, no cut and paste from elsewhere, just scripture.

[Lord Thesaurian]

The word used in Gen 2:17 is יוֹם. Its meaning can vary from a literal day to days to a contextual period of time such as a lifetime or even an open ended period of time in the kjv. The same misunderstanding leads some to make the same observation about alleged contradictions in the creation story between Genesis 1-2. There’s no gotcha to be had there (unless Adam and Eve are still alive somewhere), but all this has been explained before. The most one could complain about might be the quality of the translation, but the kjv isn’t known for flawless scholarship anyway so it’d be moot, and there are few here with the knowledge to comment on it, of which I am not one. The ESV uses the same phrase (in the day) and my understanding is it’s pretty decent.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days ( יוֹם ) of thy life

And in process of time ( יוֹם ) it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually ‎( יוֹם )

[basics]

Cyclops,

I don't contradict Scripture at all for Jesus Christ our God and Creator said of Satan that from the very beginning he was a murderer as well as being the father of lies. So, what was the murder committed at the very beginning? Wasn't Cain because he was not on the planet at the very beginning so what happened before him? Well what happened was that man believing a lie fell under death. In other words that's the murder that took place in the very beginning. All mankind was condemned to die because of a lie. So, who was the liar? Why the serpent of course or Satan as Jesus refered. There is no ambiguity here.

The serpent's intention was to make Eve disbelieve God by making a false assertion for they never became gods although on eating the fruit they now knew good and evil and the important part here is in knowing evil they realised they had just done evil. So, the lie was not God's, rather that of the serpent acting on behalf of its father, Satan. As God cannot lie how then is it possible that He did so by your reckoning unless you yourself have also fallen for that same power which is Satan's?

[conon394]

I don't contradict Scripture at all for Jesus Christ our God and Creator said of Satan that from the very beginning he was a murderer as well as being the father of lies. So, what was the murder committed at the very beginning? Wasn't Cain because he was not on the planet at the very beginning so what happened before him? Well what happened was that man believing a lie fell under death. In other words that's the murder that took place in the very beginning. All mankind was condemned to die because of a lie. So, who was the liar? Why the serpent of course or Satan as Jesus refered. There is no ambiguity here.

Fairly convoluted logic on that one and of course you are back fitting your duelist Manichaeism onto the OT.

All mankind was condemned to die because of a lie

So sin is outside of god's dictate. Or do you mean God punished everything for the act of three people.

Why the serpent of course or Satan as Jesus refered. There is no ambiguity here.

Quite a bit really as long as you read the OT with a particular NT view. In any case even the lie and the serpent must be good I thought god created everything and it was good.

[Cyclops]

...the serpent of course or Satan as Jesus refered. There is no ambiguity here.

Show me where Jesus says the serpent of Eden was Satan. He never does. There is no ambiguity here. I feel like you're adding the scripture.

The serpent's intention was to make Eve disbelieve God by making a false assertion for they never became gods although on eating the fruit they now knew good and evil and the important part here is in knowing evil they realised they had just done evil.

Where does Genesis say what the serpent's intention was? You're adding to scripture again.

. So, the lie was not God's, rather that of the serpent acting on behalf of its father, Satan. As God cannot lie how then is it possible that He did so by your reckoning unless you yourself have also fallen for that same power which is Satan's?

Hang on you said the serpent was Satan, now he's Satan's son? You don't seem to be able to keep your story straight. Genesis says nothing of the serpent's father. Its "more subtil than the beasts of the field", and God recently made all the animals. Are you calling God Satan? Controversial.

I also have to say God himself says Adam and Eve have become "as one of Us", like God himself. Strange you contradict God.

God says Adam will day on that day, and he does not die on the day he eats it. You haven't addressed this. You talk about liars. You suggest I'm under Satan's power. But I'm not saying things that aren't in the Bible.

[basics]

Cyclops,

I already told you what Jesus said about Satan being a murderer and liar from the very beginning and so the serpent was acting on his behalf as if it was Satan so what does Scripture actually say about the serpent? Reading from Genesis 3:1-6 we find not what was good, rather something that had power that none other had and used it to question God as well as to have Eve believe what it said. Only Satan had that power making the connection easy to see yet not for those dead in their sin and blind to it.

When I said that the serpent was acting under its father I was referring to Jesus when He told the Jews that they worshipped their father the Devil. Satan is the father of unbelief and so the serpent was acting for him.

You are not witing what God actually said here. Genesis 3;22 it actually reads, " And the Lord God said, behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." And so God cast them out of the garden. So, the being as one of us lies in the knowledge of good and evil, perhaps even making themselves in their own eyes gods which could never be the case except in their own imagination.

God said that on the day they eat from the tree of good and evil they would die but He never said on what day they would die, why? Because God put them there to reproduce offspring so that these offspring could care for life on the planet. And so it was that outside the garden they did indeed produce offspring and did eventually die. So, in essence the moment they ate the fruit their lifetime changed and their bodies actually began to die just as we begin to die after being born.

The Bible states that you are in bondage to sin, are powerless against it, in other words dead in sin. Neither am I saying things that are not in the Bible.

[conon394]

Only Satan had that power making the connection easy to see yet not for those dead in their sin and blind to it.

So again with the Augustine dualism

[Cyclops]

Cyclops,

I already told you what Jesus said about Satan being a murderer and liar from the very beginning and so the serpent was acting on his behalf as if it was Satan so what does Scripture actually say about the serpent? Reading from Genesis 3:1-6 we find not what was good, rather something that had power that none other had and used it to question God as well as to have Eve believe what it said. Only Satan had that power making the connection easy to see yet not for those dead in their sin and blind to it.

When I said that the serpent was acting under its father I was referring to Jesus when He told the Jews that they worshipped their father the Devil. Satan is the father of unbelief and so the serpent was acting for him.

You are not witing what God actually said here. Genesis 3;22 it actually reads, " And the Lord God said, behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." And so God cast them out of the garden. So, the being as one of us lies in the knowledge of good and evil, perhaps even making themselves in their own eyes gods which could never be the case except in their own imagination.

God said that on the day they eat from the tree of good and evil they would die but He never said on what day they would die, why? Because God put them there to reproduce offspring so that these offspring could care for life on the planet. And so it was that outside the garden they did indeed produce offspring and did eventually die. So, in essence the moment they ate the fruit their lifetime changed and their bodies actually began to die just as we begin to die after being born.

The Bible states that you are in bondage to sin, are powerless against it, in other words dead in sin. Neither am I saying things that are not in the Bible.

I'm sorry your answer is incoherent. You state unscripturally that the serpent of Eden is Satan, and then also unscripturally that the serpent is the son of Satan. Which is it?

[basics]

I'm sorry your answer is incoherent. You state unscripturally that the serpent of Eden is Satan, and then also unscripturally that the serpent is the son of Satan. Which is it?

Cyclops,

No I do not speak unScripturaly because the spirit of the serpent and the spirit of Satan are one and the same thing and shown to be by what transpired in the garden. If the serpent was not that way why did it persuade Eve that God didn't mean what He said regarding the fruit of that particular tree? Indeed, if the serpent was not acting as Satan would why did God put a particular curse on it? My answer is incoherent to you because you being of your father, Satan, you don't want to hear the truth about your position before God.

[sumskilz]

The word used in Gen 2:17 is יוֹם. Its meaning can vary from a literal day to days to a contextual period of time such as a lifetime or even an open ended period of time in the kjv. The same misunderstanding leads some to make the same observation about alleged contradictions in the creation story between Genesis 1-2. There’s no gotcha to be had there (unless Adam and Eve are still alive somewhere), but all this has been explained before. The most one could complain about might be the quality of the translation, but the kjv isn’t known for flawless scholarship anyway so it’d be moot, and there are few here with the knowledge to comment on it, of which I am not one. The ESV uses the same phrase (in the day) and my understanding is it’s pretty decent.

What is typically translated as “in the day” in this context means “from the day” or “from when”. In this particular case, it isn’t even about a period of time. Although, the main translation issue isn’t so much about the abstract usage of yōwm, but rather that Biblical Hebrew has no word for “mortal” and no future tense. Plus, prepositions never translate well.

Biblical Hebrew tenses relate to whether an action is complete or incomplete (not past, present, or future). Therefore, there is no way to determine future tense except from context. Translators typically try to strike a balance between representing each word accurately and representing the meaning accurately, but taking each to the extreme here would be informative, I think.

The closest possible word for word translation would be “…in day eating from, dying you will die”.

Whereas the meaning without any concern for representing each individual word would be “...for when you eat from it, you will become mortal”.

Since a mortal is someone who “surely will die”.