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Thread: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

  1. #101
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    If your wife told you something do you question her integrity as to the validity of what she has said? Did you question your teachers at school about what they were teaching you? Isn't it a matter that you don't want to believe what is written because you personally don't want a God in your life especially One to Whom you will have to answer when you draw your last breath?
    You are playing at a sophism.

    If your wife told you something do you question her integrity as to the validity of what she has said?
    That really depends. You are trying to make an explicate comparison to the the text of the new testament and they are very much not the same thing.

    First we would have to define what you mean about my wife's comments.

    Now if I asked her something serious or even in passing about say genetics, or statistics or biology or plants where she is an expert - as in do think using a Poisson distribution in this model is a workable ideal or Huh looks the tree has rust is it too late buy a fungus treatment. I would take her at her word

    If she says hey it was negative 20 degrees F the last two days and my BMW is acting a bit weird will you take a look and see if maybe the battery is dying and it need to deal with it? I would believe that and say well could be lets go have a look after all as far as I know the battery is the one that came the car and it well could on its last gasps

    Or she might say I almost hit an elk today on the drive home. Perfectly likely

    Or she might say you really tneed o get on getting a hair cut you let it go too long and your hair standing up and you like you are planning on being Einstein for Halloween.

    Or hey look the ravens are back and building another giant nest in out tree. That is some serious effort

    All those just gets a nod.

    But here is the thing none of that is the new testament and what you would assert it is. None of that is fantastic or supernatural or even paranormal. And none of it a preposterous claim to be an absolutely impossible recollection of what somebody said.

    Now my wife's collaborator, coworker and friend unfortunately died in a avalanche while skiing. Now he was a a bit of character and liked to barge into her office and rant to my wife over the day - about irritating admirative stuff/work, annoying post docs, how his science was going or not, politics (knowing she was a liberal lefty and would agree with him), what he was reading or some new TV show etc. So they worked together for nearly a decade. And were friends. But if she locked herself up and produced a text claiming to be a verbatim reprisal all the stuff let's call him 'William' bust into her office and ranted about, anything and everything that was on his mind over nearly a decade - no I would not believe her at all. I would believe some stories were close to the mark and other less. But 'William' is dead. The coworkers who worked with him dispersed and they are not friends and I have no way of finding them and her stories are mostly of conversations just between the two of them... So the truth of her recollections is now sort of unverifiable now and forever. Its simply a matter of how she chooses to recall it. I would have no reason to call any of her stories if she told them a lie per say about her interactions with 'William' But equally have no reason to suspect she took short hand notes of every conversation or interaction they ever had. I very much have any number of reasons to believe nobody hanging about with Jesus could or did take any notes on what he said or did.

    But let's take a different story where somebody actually has a skin in the game if you will. My Uncle. Now you see my mother and even all his closest friends - who I have known forever and my relatives who knew him will tell you he (Uncle) had shall we a say temper as a teen. They all agree he mellowed over time but was a hot head something fierce in school and bit after. That brings us to French fries. What you say? Well apparently the fries made by the school back in the 50s were quite good. Thus famously in lore my uncle stabled an acquittance in the hand with a fork (a real steel one) at lunch when he tried snatch one of his fries. Now here is the thing my uncle absolutely denies the incident ever happened. My mother absolutely declares she was at the table and he put the fork right through the soft middle of the guy's hand all the way into the table and so does my father was also a nominal eye witness. Of the 6 other Polacks who all grew up on the same block and are his friends and say they were there close or at the table 4 say yep he stabled the guy (how badly varies) . One says he only sorta pretend stabled him and one say he did not notice. But the thing is the secondary testimony from family and other friends at wakes and what is clear everyone believes he forked a guy in the hand over fries. But of course when I questioned everyone the actual list of who was supposedly right there or just going and coming from the table nothing really adds up So and so A is no so and so B was off getting a coke, but so and so B is absolutely sure he saw it. So we a have really Rashomon like tale and that's just for one lunch event you would think would stay in your mind.

    In either case we are still judging stories without fantastical elements. But the NT has those in spades the exact thing and on a scale that could hardly avoid notice but surprisingly does not except in the self reliant retold gospels. We are facing not just unreliable witness testimony but unreliable witness testimony about events that would be remarked on by any non believer sources and that simply does not exist. If text includes a completely unexplainable darkening of the sun across the whole land 3 hours than nobody seems to have remarked on its credibly is a bit shabby.

    Did you question your teachers at school about what they were teaching you?
    In many cases yes. But thankfully that information right or wrong could be verified by other sources.

    Isn't it a matter that you don't want to believe what is written because you personally don't want a God in your life especially One to Whom you will have to answer when you draw your last breath?
    Umm the god of the OT and NT is deeply underwhelming. So yes I care not to think I much have to answer to him given his actions not sure who should be the judge. At least until he explains Jericho to my satisfaction... And certainty your god the Augustine god of original sin his hardly a worthy judge of anyone.
    Last edited by conon394; February 01, 2023 at 09:59 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #102

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OLfATpg1rBw

    Why does the Roman Church embrace the secular view on many questions of dogma such as the identity of the antichrist, but not on the pagan concept of hell, a doctrine which Jesus never mentioned?
    As you might assume, Iíve been to Gehenna on several occasions. It can get uncomfortably hot, but Iíve also been there in the snow.

    Itís mostly a park now:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #103
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    conon394,

    Now how do any of us know that what you have written is true? Indeed will any of it alter my life as the Gospel has done? You see I believe the Gospel because it did alter my life as it has done for many over the years, why? Because what is written is God's power unto salvation meaning what He did for me makes sure I won't be going into hell for eternity. God doesn't have to explain anything to you nor does He care what you think, why? Because He is God, our Creator and as such He determines our lives and our destinies.

  4. #104

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    As you might assume, Iíve been to Gehenna on several occasions. It can get uncomfortably hot, but Iíve also been there in the snow.

    Itís mostly a park now:
    Burning forever and ever seems to have done wonders for the place, though I must say it doesnít look as exciting as Danteís fan fiction. It does make me wonder, though, why Peterís Apocalypse was left on the cutting room floor if it is still dogma.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  5. #105

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Burning forever and ever seems to have done wonders for the place, though I must say it doesn’t look as exciting as Dante’s fan fiction. It does make me wonder, though, why Peter’s Apocalypse was left on the cutting room floor if it is still dogma.
    Many of the Catholic doctrines have no biblical basis. And simply because a book happens to express a an established Catholic doctrine doesn't mean that book is anly less a forgery.

    The New Testament books that were included in the Bible had to meet the criteria of being thought to have been written by an Apostle or by the companion of an Apostle. Sometimes, they got it wrong, and books that were claimed to have been written by apostles really weren't. There was a a lot of skepticism about 2nd Peter really have been written by the Apostle Peter, for example, and most scholars agree with the skeptics. But in the end, the compilerof Bible books gave 2nd Peter the benefit of the doubt, and included it.

    Peter's Apocalypse was never generally thought to be authetic, there is too much evidence it wasn't written in the 1st century, which is why it was not included in the Bible. The Letters of Clement were popular in their day, and really don't have anything theologically objectionable, but were not included because Clement was not an apostle or the companion of an apostle.

  6. #106
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    The point is that the Bible as we know it is the Word of God to bring about salvation or worse to all mankind. Therefore the destiny of man lies in who reads it and believes and who doesn't. From beginning to end we see that belief comes by the Grace of God and no other place. Life is too short to ignore it.

  7. #107
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    The New Testament books that were included in the Bible had to meet the criteria of being thought to have been written by an Apostle or by the companion of an Apostle
    And yet the it absolutely unlikely.

    But in the end, the compiler of Bible books gave 2nd Peter the benefit of the doubt, and included it.
    And managed to loose the bulk of stricture they deemed not orthodoxy.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #108
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    conon394,

    Why is it unlikely? What bulk of stricture are you talking about? The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only means by which a person might be saved, nothing else, so what are you talking about?

  9. #109
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Why is it unlikely? What bulk of stricture are you talking about? The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only means by which a person might be saved, nothing else, so what are you talking about?
    All the gospels now lost that are known by fragments or references by the early church father or say the letters that certainly existed by Paul now lost or the ones he was responding to for example. In other words the mass in fact the vast majority of writing about Jesus and Christianity that essentially disappeared with the fall of the Roman empire and the imposition of the orthodoxly of the existing new testament and its very human creators.

    You might try "The Written Gospels"

    Chapter 13 'The Forty Other Gospels' by Tuckett. Sorry to cite a book I usually look use JSTOR but the chapters are based on peer reviewed papers I don't have a any good publicly online source for them. I also realize its kind of of a pointless recommendation since you would seem to read only self reinforcing material about your own particular sect of Christianity.
    Last edited by conon394; February 04, 2023 at 01:28 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    conon394,

    The Bible is complete so it doesn't need to be added to, why? Because the essentials to being saved are contained in it as we have it. But of course if you know of any other way to attain salvation please tell?

  11. #111
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Ah than which ending of Mark is the complete one?

    Because the essentials to being saved are contained in it as we have it.
    I guess edited properly by humans for the way you choose to believe but the evidence other Christians over the years came to different conclusions and had a lot more reading material to consider.
    Last edited by conon394; February 05, 2023 at 11:52 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #112
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    conon394,

    A Christian is a person born again of the Spirit of God. There isn't any other.

  13. #113
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    A Christian is a person born again of the Spirit of God. There isn't any other.
    Not the for most in the way you understand it and that is in itself not frankly the translation of a single passage that can be understood in multiple ways. Translation issue.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    conon394,

    Then why did Jesus say, " A man must be born again of the Spirit of God if he is to enter heaven," and then tell that ruler that as being a leader he didn't know that? Further, that on the great day of the Lord many will cry out that they did this and that in His name yet His reply will be, " Depart from Me for I never knew you." The biggest problem within Christianity is all them who were told by some preacher, " All you have to do is give your life to Christ and you are saved," but alas, unless God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have brought that person to a state of conviction true conversion will not take place. God looks for the broken and contrite heart crying out for forgiveness and in every part of that process He is at the Centre of it. That is what is written.

  15. #115
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    That is what somebody said he said and that is only one potential translation.
    Last edited by conon394; February 07, 2023 at 02:40 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #116

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    All the gospels now lost that are known by fragments or references by the early church father or say the letters that certainly existed by Paul now lost or the ones he was responding to for example. In other words the mass in fact the vast majority of writing about Jesus and Christianity that essentially disappeared with the fall of the Roman empire and the imposition of the orthodoxly of the existing new testament and its very human creators.
    We have found a number of apocryphal gospels, and everyone of them, when compared to the 4 canonical gospels, are inferior in terms of historicity. Most of them were clearly written later, and all display a distinct lack of real knowledge of Jewish customs of first century CE Judea and Galilee.

    For example, the Gospel of Thomas, in all the sayings, not once are any of the sayings clearly identified from coming the Old Testament, even though a couple of the sayings in it are clearly distorted quotes from the Old Testament. But we know that a first century Jewish teacher or religious would be quoting the Old Testament, which is exactly what the canonical gospels show Jesus doing. Even though at least a couple of the Gospel writers were not Jewish, all the canonical gospel writers clearly show Jesus was Jewish. In the non canonical gospels, despite Jesus clearly Jewish name, and Jewish location, it is not clear that many of them even knew Jesus was a Jew or what Jewish customs were. And the canonical gospels are full of references to real historical persons who lived at the time and place that the canonical gospels place them. What the New Testament says about about Jewish Sadducees and Pharisees corresponds to what other, contemporary non Christians like Philo of Alexandria and Josephus said about these groups. And keep in mind, these Jewish groups disappeared after the Temple was destroyed in the failed revolt of 70 CE. The Gospel of John shows knowledge of details of the Temple in Jerusalem that would no longer be available after the Temple was destroyed. In those days, you just couldn't look up those details online with Google, and there weren't books with detailed drawings of the Temple lying around. Which has led some scholars to think that while John is the most recent of the canonical gospels, it must have been relying on earlier sources.


    You might try "The Written Gospels"

    Chapter 13 'The Forty Other Gospels' by Tuckett. Sorry to cite a book I usually look use JSTOR but the chapters are based on peer reviewed papers I don't have a any good publicly online source for them. I also realize its kind of of a pointless recommendation since you would seem to read only self reinforcing material about your own particular sect of Christianity.
    I have actually read many of the these non canonical gospels, which is more than I think I can say for you. The majority of all scholars, even agnostic ones, agree that the majority of these "40 Other Gospels" were written later than the canonical ones. Only the Gospel of Thomas is thought might be as old as the canonical gospels, but that is fiercely debated among scholars, and in any case, unlike the canonical gospels, the Gospel of Thomas lacks any kind of historical detail that find in the canonical gospels.

    But actually doing real research, instead of merely confirming your own bias, is something I clearly don't expect from you.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Common Soldier,

    I've just learned something that I never knew so well done and thanks.

  18. #118

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    We have found a number of apocryphal gospels, and everyone of them, when compared to the 4 canonical gospels, are inferior in terms of historicity. Most of them were clearly written later, and all display a distinct lack of real knowledge of Jewish customs of first century CE Judea and Galilee.
    The gospels werenít written as biographies in the way we think of historical non fiction today. They were written as a collection of stories to convey what Jesus was like and what he taught, with less emphasis on what we might call ďhistorical factĒ and more emphasis on the theology the author(s) wanted to communicate. For example, the purpose of ascribing the works to characters like Mark or John or Thomas was to give the works credibility they wouldnít otherwise have if the books were called ďJohn Q Scribe.Ē Thus the decision of whether or not to include a book came down to whether or not the Church thought it was theologically consistent, not its historicity per se.
    The Gospel of John shows knowledge of details of the Temple in Jerusalem that would no longer be available after the Temple was destroyed. In those days, you just couldn't look up those details online with Google, and there weren't books with detailed drawings of the Temple lying around. Which has led some scholars to think that while John is the most recent of the canonical gospels, it must have been relying on earlier sources.
    John also shows significant theological development beyond what the earliest gospels like Mark convey. John is more explicit about Jesusí divinity and eternal existence as God than any of the other gospels, because of the consolidation of Christian theology towards the concept of the trinity. If Iím not mistaken, itís also the only canonical gospel where Jesus explicitly equates himself with God. So again, the decision to include it was more theological than academic. I believe thatís cononís point.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  19. #119
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    The Apostle John is probably the most informed of the disciples, why? Because on reading the New Testament John was never far from Jesus' side and soaked in every word the Lord spoke unlike Peter who tended to dispute a lot of what He said. In fact of all the Spirituality given the disciples John saw more than the others and it can be said was given his vision known to us as the Revelation of Jesus Christ which is a great panoramic view of the world and how it will be replaced by the New Heaven and Earth. The most important aspect of the Bible is that all it contains is more than sufficient to bring fallen man to salvation and in Peter's words, " As many as the Lord God shall call." All this penny pinching is quite worthless because regardlees of the moans and groans God is still in charge.

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