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Thread: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

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    Default The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    I'm curious what people's ideas and Biblical references are. Examining the KJV, there are three iterations of the word "soul:"

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/sear...2#s=s_lexiconc

    We see here a myriad of contexts centered on breath, persons, souls, creatures, etc. What evidence to we have for the traditional Christian concept of a "soul" that has an actual, metaphysical and immortal form? From origin, to life, to death, the text indicates a clear picture of the state of man in each.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 2:7
    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    Here God breathes into man the [breath] of life = נְשָׁמָה , neshamah; and he became a living [soul] = נֶפֶשׁ , nephesh.

    נְשָׁמָה , neshamah here is literal, and is so in every other usage to my knowledge. נֶפֶשׁ , nephesh refers to the essence of life itself, and is not exclusive to human beings:
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 1:20-21
    And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    And God created great whales, and every living creature (nephesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 2:19
    And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature (nephesh), that was the name thereof.
    In Ecclesiastes, we can see plainly what happens to life upon death:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecclesiastes 12
    Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

    2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

    3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

    4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;

    5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

    6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

    9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

    10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

    11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

    12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

    13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

    14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
    This is corroborated by a discussion of what happens to the nephesh of sinners:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 18:20-22; 26-28
    The soul (nephesh) that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul (nephesh) alive.

    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    Souls live, souls die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecclesiastes 9, 1-10
    For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

    2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

    3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

    4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

    5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

    8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

    9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

    10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
    There is no consciousness in death. Jesus was clear:
    Quote Originally Posted by John 11:1-14
    Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

    2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)

    3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

    4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

    5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

    6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

    7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

    8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

    9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

    10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
    Jesus is making a specific comparison here; he also made it in reference to another person he would raise from the dead:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark 5:35-43
    While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?

    36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

    37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.

    38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.

    39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

    40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

    41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.

    42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.

    43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.
    Death is compared to sleep throughout the Old Testament. Consider David:
    Quote Originally Posted by I Kings 2:10-11
    So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

    And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.
    In Acts, we are reminded that David was a prophet, foresaw the resurrection of Christ, and is dead and buried, not in heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acts 2:22-36
    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

    26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    Paul describes Jesus, who is God, as the only one who possesses immortality.
    Quote Originally Posted by I Timothy 6:13-16
    I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

    14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

    16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
    It is Jesus who will raise the righteous from the dead and give them eternal life, that they will never die again.
    Quote Originally Posted by John 5:25-30
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    Quote Originally Posted by I Corinthians 15:51-58
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
    Jesus was clear:
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 20:27-36
    27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,

    28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

    29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.

    30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.

    31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.

    32 Last of all the woman died also.

    33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.

    34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    Given the clarity of Scripture on the subject, I'm curious to know where the overwhelming predominance of the belief in a metaphysical, immortal soul comes from in Christian thought. While there is a direct analogous context to Greco-Roman religious tradition, do we have Biblical evidence for it that is consistent with what we know above?
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 03, 2020 at 11:45 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    What evidence to we have for the traditional Christian concept of a "soul" that has an actual, metaphysical and immortal form?
    The best defense of dualism from a biblical viewpoint can be found in Body, Soul and Life Everlasting by John Cooper. Cooper carefully exegetes the relevant Old and New Testament passages that speak of the afterlife. Here is what he found in relation to the Old Testament:

    Quote Originally Posted by Page 70-71
    So the final result of our inquiry into Old Testament anthropology yields both functional holism and dualism. Holism is the conclusion of the previous chapter. We saw that the Hebrews certainly emphasized the goodness and desirability of an earthly, bodily existence lived richly in terms of all the relationships God created for human life…
    At the same time they believed that the human persons continue to exist after death, though in a state far less desirable than earthly life. While it is not clear whether the dead were thought to be totally unconscious or merely lethargic, they do lack the vitality of life in this world. Someday the righteous will return to bodily life on earth by the miraculous power of God. This view is unquestionably dualistic and yet it is fully compatible with Hebrew holism.
    Moving to the New Testament, he says this:

    Quote Originally Posted by page 119
    Discounting 1 Peter 3 because of obscurity, we have discovered substantial evidence against the claim that ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ are never used dualistically to refer to deceased but existing humans. Hebrews 12 and Luke 23-24 almost certainly use pneuma that way. Far more probably than not, psyche has that meaning in Revelation 6 and Matthew 10. From a scholarly point of view, the dualist’s case seems significantly more defensible than the monist’s on this issue.
    Cooper rests most of his case on the intermediate state. Problems arise in simply trying to define what is meant by the term soul. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament entry in pages 587 to 591 note the probable original meaning of the word nephesh was “to breathe”. The Akkadian, Ugaritic and Hebrew languages all point to this meaning. But other translations are appropriate. Vine’s Dictionary is less helpful in narrowing down the options.


  3. #3

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Duptar View Post
    The best defense of dualism from a biblical viewpoint can be found in Body, Soul and Life Everlasting by John Cooper. Cooper carefully exegetes the relevant Old and New Testament passages that speak of the afterlife. Here is what he found in relation to the Old Testament:



    Moving to the New Testament, he says this:



    Cooper rests most of his case on the intermediate state. Problems arise in simply trying to define what is meant by the term soul. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament entry in pages 587 to 591 note the probable original meaning of the word nephesh was “to breathe”. The Akkadian, Ugaritic and Hebrew languages all point to this meaning. But other translations are appropriate. Vine’s Dictionary is less helpful in narrowing down the options.

    Thanks can you explain from those passages directly? I tend to consider the Bible the sole authority in these matters, rather than what this or that theologian believes the words to convey.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    In 1 Kings 19:4 and Jonah 4:8 there is this expression: wayyišʾal ʾeṯ- nap̄šōw lāmūṯ (וַיִּשְׁאַ֤ל אֶת־ נַפְשׁוֹ֙ לָמ֔וּת). Which is "and he asked for his nephesh to die".

    I don't think you will find anything explicit in the OT/Hebrew Bible. Judaism is ambiguous about the existence of an afterlife. Various Jewish movements have differed on the possibility precisely because there is no clear scriptural answer.

    If you consider the Greek version of Sirach canonical, there is an explicit answer, but a lot of Christian denominations don't consider it canonical, and there is good reason to believe it has been modified. The Hebrew original was written between 200 and 175 BCE most likely in or near Jerusalem. According to the prologue of the Greek version, it was translated from Hebrew in Egypt sometime between 133 BCE and about 110 BCE. The prologue, written by Ben Sira’s grandson, likewise states “Not only this book, but even the Law itself, the Prophecies, and the rest of the books differ not a little when read in the original.”

    Hebrew versions of Sirach have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, at Masada, and in the Cairo Geniza. The oldest extant copy in Hebrew is from the First Century BCE, the oldest extent copy of the Greek version is contained within the Codex Vatinicus from the Fourth Century CE.

    There are several differences concerning afterlife between the Hebrew and Greek versions:

    Hebrew 2.9 - You who fear the lord, hope for good things, for lasting joy and mercy.
    Greek 2.9 - You who fear the lord, hope for good things, for lasting joy and mercy, for his reward is an everlasting gift with joy.

    Hebrew 7.17 - The expectation of mortals is worms.
    Greek 7.17 - The punishment of the ungodly is fire and worms.

    Hebrew 19.19 - [no such text exists]
    Greek 19.19 – Those who do what is pleasing in him enjoy the fruit of the tree of immortality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #5

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    The question of Biblical canon is especially interesting from a perspective where all Scripture is considered divinely inspired. I only read the KJV, so no Sirach for me. That said, Leviticus mentions the following from God himself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviticus 19, 20 (excerpts)
    And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.
    ........

    Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

    .....

    A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians 5
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation 22
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    To the extent that metaphysical immortal souls could exist in a context that comports with a sort of sleep in which the subject’s nephesh returned to God who gave it, and is not aware of anything, God forbids the very existence of those who claim to contact them. The idea that this reward of immortality that awaits the righteous could be given to them upon the moment of death is by inference at best, as far as I know. If there is a passage that manages to do so in a way that concurs with what we know, I’m not sure what that would look like.

    Nevertheless, the Roman Church is characteristically explicit on the subject:
    The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

    367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_c...m/p1s2c1p6.htm
    Similarly, this rather authoritative sounding article on the proof of the immortality of the soul from a Catholic perspective doesn’t reference the Bible at all, unless I missed it.

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...the-human-soul

    There seems to be an inference by distinguishing bodily immortality and the immortality of the soul:

    Certainly man desires immortality not only for his spirit, but also for his body: he desires to live forever in the totality of his being. He knows nevertheless that his body, because it is material, is naturally destined for death and corruption. Therefore the desire for bodily immortality cannot be "natural," for it is not required by the nature of a body. Nevertheless, even the human desire for bodily immortality will be realized, but only by a gift of God who will clothe "this corruptible body with incorruptibility and this mortal body with immortality," in virtue of the victory of Christ over death (see I Cor. 15:53-57).

    https://www.catholicculture.org/cult...cfm?recnum=644
    Biblical rationale from the same:
    By reflecting, therefore, on the destiny of man we can demonstrate with solid rational arguments that he is immortal in his spirit, since his soul is immortal by nature; but we cannot demonstrate by reason alone that he is immortal as "man," that is, in the totality of his being which is composed of soul and body. For human reason man is mortal, even if his soul (which is not the whole man) is immortal. Thus, for human reason death remains an impassible barrier: man cannot conquer death even if he is able to escape it through his soul. But is death really the final destiny of man? Christian revelation responds to this question with the dogma of the "resurrection of the dead." It teaches two things. It affirms above all that death is not the destiny of man: he who believes in Christ and lives in him, by exercising charity towards his brothers, already has eternal life right now, that is, he participates in the very life of God: "In very truth I tell you, whoever heeds what I say and puts his trust in him who sent me has eternal life; he does not come to judgment, but has already passed from death to life" (John 5:24). "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life" (John 3: 36). Of course, even the one who believes in Christ must pass through temporal death; but for him death is only a "passage" to eternal life: "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever has faith in me shall live, even though he dies; and no one who lives and has faith in me shall ever die" (John 11:25-26). After death, therefore, the one who believes in Christ "will live." This is what Jesus told the sister of Lazarus before he brought back to life her brother who had been dead for four days.

    In what does this "life after death" consist? St. Paul replies: in "being with Christ." In fact, he is seized with a strong "desire to be freed from the body and to be with Christ" (Phil. 1:23). The Book of Revelation adds that the "martyrs," the Christians killed for the sake of Christ, "stand before the throne of God and worship him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15). "Life after death, "therefore, is life with God and with Christ: with God who "is not God of the dead but of the living, because in his sight all are alive" (Luke 20:38), participating in his life and in his infinite happiness; with Christ who, risen from the dead, is now the "Living One" (Rev. 1:18) and makes those who have died in him participators in his own risen life.
    Quote Originally Posted by John 11
    Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
    21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
    22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
    23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
    24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
    27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
    It’s worth noting that the Greek “οὐ μὴ,” translated as “never” in verse 26, is a pair of particles, so the word “never” seems to be by inference. What is clear is that Jesus is saying those who believe in him will not die because he has the power of resurrection. This is consistent with what we know about his comparison of death to sleep, as well as the second coming and resurrection of the dead whereupon the righteous will never die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
    It is joined to other particles: οὐ μή, not at all, by no means, surely not, in no wise, see μή, IV.;

    IV. The particles οὐ μή in combination augment the force of the negation, and signify not at all, in no wise, by no means; (this formula arose from the fuller expressions οὐ δεινόν or δέος or φόβος, μή, which are still found sometimes in Greek authors, cf. Kühner, ii. § 516, 9, p. 773f; but so far was this origin of the phrase lost sight of that οὐ μή is used even of things not at all to be feared, but rather to be desired; so in the N. T. in Matthew 5:18, 26; Matthew 18:3; Luke 18:17; Luke 22:16; John 4:48; John 20:25; 1 Thessalonians 5:3); cf. Matthiae, § 517; Kühner, ii., p. 775; Bernhardy (1829) p. 402ff; (Gildersleeve in the Amer. Jour. of Philol. for 1882, p. 202f: Goodwin § 89): Winers Grammar, § 56, 3 (Buttmann, 211 (183f)).
    Paul’s desire to “be with Christ” is noted in his letter to the Philippians:
    Quote Originally Posted by Philippians 1
    21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
    22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
    23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
    24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
    25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
    26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
    “To be” in verse 23 comes from the Greek εἶναι, “to be present,” but the tense is temporally ambiguous. For example, εἶναι features throughout the story of the birth of Jesus in Luke as a generic infinitive to denote things that were going on at the time (there “were” shepherds abiding in the fields, there “was” no room for them in the inn, etc). It’s at times used in a future context as well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 19
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If “thou wilt be” (θέλω εἶναι) perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
    What’s clear from the passage in Philippians is that Paul desires to “depart” in order to be with Christ at some point in time, which comports with what we know as well as what Paul says about the second coming and resurrection of the dead in other letters.

    Lastly, there is the reference to Revelation 7
    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation 7
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    While the context here suggests these subjects are indeed martyrs, or certainly people who have suffered for their faith in God, it doesn’t appear facially sufficient to cite as evidence of the immortal soul; given everything we know so far, and the fact that the visions being revealed in the broader passage are temporally ambiguous if not altogether futuristic.

    Doctrinal assertiveness aside, the predominance of the near universal certainty regarding the existence of immortal, metaphysical souls in Christianity seems to be one of the more puzzling dogmatic assumptions one might find, and one that would appear to be entirely unnecessary. Consider the relative clarity and forcefulness with which we are told the dead are asleep, their nephesh or life force that exists in all living things is returned to God who gave it, and they know nothing. It therefore seems dreadfully brazen to build a core doctrine entirely on an arguably contravening inference, especially one that opens up the concept of contacting these “immortal souls,” a practice declared damnable by God himself.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Thanks can you explain from those passages directly?
    If I have time this weekend, sure.

    I tend to consider the Bible the sole authority in these matters, rather than what this or that theologian believes the words to convey.
    And you are right to think so although God has graced some with the gift of teaching and their input is valuable to the body of Christ.

    Judaism is ambiguous about the existence of an afterlife. Various Jewish movements have differed on the possibility precisely because there is no clear scriptural answer.
    What is your take on Isaiah 66:24? Daniel 12:2 uses the word “olam” to describe the destinies of the righteous and the wicked, which context suggests means everlasting. Psalm 49:15- the language here may suggest “God will take me out of Sheol.”

    Similarly, this rather authoritative sounding article on the proof of the immortality of the soul from a Catholic perspective doesn’t reference the Bible at all, unless I missed it.
    That’s no surprise.


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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Duptar View Post
    What is your take on Isaiah 66:24? Daniel 12:2 uses the word “olam” to describe the destinies of the righteous and the wicked, which context suggests means everlasting. Psalm 49:15- the language here may suggest “God will take me out of Sheol.”
    While they can be (and have been) interpreted as such, I don’t think any of those passages explicitly express the notion of the immortality of the soul.

    Isaiah 66:24 is rather cryptic in a literal reading:

    “And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

    It also requires a particular interpretative lens to see it as anything generalizable rather than specific to the context of Isaiah’s prophesy. It seems to be an elaboration upon the imagery of Isaiah 14:11 referring to the King of Babylon:

    “Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering.”

    However, it is likely that an interpretation of this imagery as referring to an afterlife was influential on the Greek translation of Sirach that I mentioned in my previous post.

    Psalm 49:15 refers to the nephesh returning to God. It doesn’t settle the issue Legio Italica raised unless one assumes the nephesh is analogous to the soul in the Greco-Roman religious tradition.

    A literal reading of Daniel 12:2 seems to refer to a future bodily resurrection:

    “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

    From a religious perspective, there are any number of exegetical strategies one could use to arrive at different interpretations of these passages, but I don’t think any explicitly refer to the notion of the immortality of the soul.
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Biblically speaking the soul is the very heart of men and when the judgement comes it is clear that whatever garment or body is given there are two destinations for each one. According to Jesus heaven and hell are adjacent to each other split by an unbridgeable chasm. On the heavenly side are those whom God has saved for Himself and on the other unquenchable light that pours down like a lake of fire on those trapped in it. As there is no more death it means they all have entered the eternal stage some to great joy and most to eternal torment.

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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Biblically speaking the soul is the very heart of men and when the judgement comes it is clear that whatever garment or body is given there are two destinations for each one. According to Jesus heaven and hell are adjacent to each other split by an unbridgeable chasm. On the heavenly side are those whom God has saved for Himself and on the other unquenchable light that pours down like a lake of fire on those trapped in it. As there is no more death it means they all have entered the eternal stage some to great joy and most to eternal torment.
    I would caution against use of the description “eternal torment,” or themes related to the motto, “Where will you spend eternity?” at least from a Biblical standpoint. What the Bible does say about hell doesn’t necessarily comport with the Roman concept of eternal hellfire at all. The latter is in large part predicated on the notion of the metaphysical and immortal soul.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 09, 2020 at 09:55 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    The first Christians believed that heaven and hell were the same, being in God's presence, and what you experience (comfort and love or infinite guilt and shame) depends and how clean your conscience is when you die. While the guilt and shame you feel when faced with God's infinite love for you as a person could be metaphorically interpreted as a fire the concept of hellfire and eternal torment in a lake of brimstone is actually an early medieval invention that was designed to make theological room for the concept of purgatory - which is another medieval invention.

    For the first thousand years of its existence Christianity had no concept of lakes of fire and other such poetic imagery.
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I would caution against use of the description “eternal torment,” or themes related to the motto, “Where will you spend eternity?” at least from a Biblical standpoint. What the Bible does say about hell doesn’t necessarily comport with the Roman concept of eternal hellfire at all. The latter is in large part predicated on the notion of the metaphysical and immortal soul.
    Legio Italica,

    I was referring to Luke 16;19-31. in my post which gives a great deal of accounting as to what hell will be like. I am not going with anything other than what is said in my Bible and the second death being accounted for in the KJV 21;8 confirms for me that this second death is an eternal hell.

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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Legio Italica,

    I was referring to Luke 16;19-31. in my post which gives a great deal of accounting as to what hell will be like. I am not going with anything other than what is said in my Bible and the second death being accounted for in the KJV 21;8 confirms for me that this second death is an eternal hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 16
    19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
    This is one of Jesus’ many parables; it’s difficult to take what is said here literally, especially without additional context. As for the fates of the two men in this story, we have the concept of a bosom, and the concept of Hades.

    κόλπος, bosom

    Quote Originally Posted by Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
    κόλπος, κόλπου, ὁ (apparently akin to κοῖλος hollow, (yet cf. Vanicek, p. 179; Liddell and Scott, under the word)), Hebrew חֵיק; the bosom (Latinsinus), i. e. as in the Greek writings from Homer down:
    1. the front of the body between the arms hence ἀνακεῖσθαι ἐν τῷ κόλπῳ τίνος, of the one who so reclines at table that his head covers the bosom as it were, the chest, of the one next him (cf. B. D. under the word ), John 13:23. Hence the figurative expressions, ἐν τοῖς κόλποις (on the plural, which occurs as early as Homer, Iliad 9, 570, cf. Winers Grammar, § 27, 3; (Buttmann, 24 (21))) τοῦ Ἀβραάμ εἶναι, to obtain the seat next to Abraham, i. e. to be partaker of the same blessedness as Abraham in paradise, Luke 16:23; ἀποφέρεσθαι... εἰς τόν κόλπον Ἀβραάμ, to be borne away to the enjoyment of the same felicity with Abraham, Luke 16:22 (οὕτω γάρ παθόντας — according to another reading θανόντας — Ἀβραάμ καί Ἰσαάκ καί Ἰακώβ ὑποδέξονται εἰς τούς κόλπους αὐτῶν, 4 Macc. 13:16; The words εἰς τοὺς κόλπους αὐτῶν are wanting in good Mss. (see B. D. under the phrase, Abraham's bosom, and) on the rabbinical phrase אברהם שׁל בּחיקו, in Abraham's bosom, to designate bliss in paradise, cf. Lightfoot, Horace, Hebrew et Talmud., p. 851ff); ὁ ὤν εἰς τόν κόλπον τοῦ πατρός, lying (turned) unto the bosom of his father (God), i. e. in the closest and most intimate relation to the Father, John 1:18 (Winers Grammar, 415 (387)); cf. Cicero, ad div. 14,4iste vero sit in sinu semper et complexu meo.
    Other uses of the word (there aren’t many) provide additional context for Jesus’ analogy in Luke.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G2859&t=KJV

    Quote Originally Posted by John 1
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
    16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
    17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
    18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom (κόλπος) of the Father, he hath declared him.
    Within the limited usage of κόλπος we have, we can see that it is metaphorical when used in the concept of divine rest/abiding with God. Given John’s words here, it’s worth recalling another famous passage of his. Jesus was clear:

    Quote Originally Posted by John 3
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
    The word “hell” in this parable, ᾅδης, Hades, is featured in context.

    Paul writes to the Corinthians (note also use of the word θάνατος, “death):
    Quote Originally Posted by I Corinthians 15
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, (θάνατος) where is thy sting? O grave (ᾅδης) where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death (θάνατος) is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
    Jesus claims victory over hell, the grave, through his second coming. This is consistent with what the Bible says about the fate of hell (ᾅδης) in Revelation:
    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation 20
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell (ᾅδης) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    As part of God’s final judgement of mankind, the dead are brought forth from hell, the grave, to be judged, whereupon the wicked and hell itself, the grave, are consumed by fire in the everlasting finality of the second death. This is consistent with what we see in the next chapter:
    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation 21
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The word for “death” in both places, θάνατος, does not seem to imply immortality in any case. It is most often literal as far as I know, and when used in an analogous context, implies the tragedy of separation from God in death, which Jesus conquered through his resurrection:
    Quote Originally Posted by Philippians 2
    25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
    26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
    27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death (θάνατος): but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
    28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 8
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death (θάνατος), nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Timothy 1
    8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death (θάνατος), and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
    11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
    For the unrepentant sinner, there is ultimately no salvation from death, θάνατος, but that does not imply immortality of another kind for the unrepentant sinner. Just the opposite. This is one reason it’s important to understand the nature of the soul in the Bible, so as not to read into things by inference of an inaccurate premise.

    The various contextual uses of ᾅδης indicate that its literal usage is in reference to the grave/death. Given the metaphorical nature of parables, it’s possible the person recording Jesus’ words there may have done so in the context of Greek influence. We know based on Scripture heretofore discussed that there is no consciousness in death, nor communication with the dead, so it’s highly unlikely, to say the least, that Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal description of what happens to people immediately after death. Recall that in the previous chapter, the Pharisees had gathered among the crowd again to try and catch Jesus making doctrinal errors in his sermons, and so Jesus, as he often did, began recounting various metaphorical stories to those gathered in order to communicate general concepts in ways the average listener could understand, without allowing the Pharisees to find an excuse to discredit/silence him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 15
    Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
    2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

    .........
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I would caution against use of the description “eternal torment,” or themes related to the motto, “Where will you spend eternity?” at least from a Biblical standpoint. What the Bible does say about hell doesn’t necessarily comport with the Roman concept of eternal hellfire at all.
    This is not from the teachings of Christ. For example, the Lord clearly taught in Matthew 25 that the wicked will share in the fate of the devil. If God were not to give the same punishment to sinners that he does to the devil, He would be unjust. And we know from Revelation that the devil will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The holiness of God demands an eternal punishment for sin.

    Jesus also described the “fire of hell” in Matthew 5 as a warning to those who insult others and in Matthew 13 as the fate of those who are among the tares. Mark 9:48 describes hell as the place where the fire never dies out. Matthew 18 may be used for one further example.

    In Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of the eternal fire that awaits the wicked. Richard Bauckham in Jude, 2 Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Page 55
    The idea is that the site of the cities… a scene of sulfurous devastation, provided ever-present evidence of the reality of divine judgment...According to Philo [a first-century Jewish writer] ‘even to this day the visible tokens of the indescribable disaster are pointed out in Syria- ruins, cinders, brimstone, smoke and murky flames which continue to rise from the ground as from a fire still smoldering beneath,’ Jude means that the still burning site of the cities is a warning picture of the eternal fires of hell
    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    While the guilt and shame you feel when faced with God's infinite love for you as a person could be metaphorically interpreted as a fire the concept of hellfire and eternal torment in a lake of brimstone is actually an early medieval invention that was designed to make theological room for the concept of purgatory - which is another medieval invention.
    It comes directly from the teachings of Jesus and is corroborated by a few passages in the epistles. Although it should be mentioned that various descriptions are given of hell: a place of outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth,

    Early church teachers affirmed the doctrine of eternal hellfire. For example, here’s Tertullian on hell:

    If, therefore, anyone shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal- expressly announced as an evelasting penalty; and let him then admit that it is from this circumstance that this ‘never-ending’ killing is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal
    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    This is one of Jesus’ many parables
    Jesus’ story involves real people and real names, so it cannot be rendered as a parable.

    The word basanizo/basanos is used in the Greek here to describe the torment suffered by the rich man. Compare Matthew 8:6, Revelation 9:5 and 14:11 and the word is used to convey conscious torment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando, Crucial Questions About Hell
    The Greek-English lexicon by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker lists three ways in which the verb is used. It can be used literally of the torture in judicial examination, figuratively of any severe distress, or generally of harassing. In each case conscious torment is intended.
    X

    Re: Belief in Church History

    Quote Originally Posted by Hell on Trial, P. 97
    Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of eternal torment in hell. Here and there, outside the theological mainstream, were some who believe the wicked would finally be annihilated...Even fewer were the advocates of universal salvation, though these few included some major theologians of the early church. Eternal punishment was firmly asserted in official creeds and confessions of the church.
    Last edited by Duptar; October 10, 2020 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Add Quote

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    The first Christians believed that heaven and hell were the same, being in God's presence, and what you experience (comfort and love or infinite guilt and shame) depends and how clean your conscience is when you die. While the guilt and shame you feel when faced with God's infinite love for you as a person could be metaphorically interpreted as a fire the concept of hellfire and eternal torment in a lake of brimstone is actually an early medieval invention that was designed to make theological room for the concept of purgatory - which is another medieval invention.

    For the first thousand years of its existence Christianity had no concept of lakes of fire and other such poetic imagery.
    Settra,

    Jesus explained that heaven and hell are adjacent to one another in His telling of Lazarus and the rich man and so we know where those He casts into hell are sent after the final judgement. Being the final judgement and this creation being no more it follows that there is nowhere else for them in hell to go. They cannot enter the new heaven and earth as that is made entirely for the church of born again believers or as is said elsewhere the elect of God. Therefore my thinking leads me to believe those in hell are there for etenity.

    It fills my heart with pleasure that there are in these threads men of God coming forward on this subject as it is so important for unbelievers to get a grasp of what Scripture is saying about their reckless drive towards such a future. God bless you.

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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Duptar View Post
    This is not from the teachings of Christ. For example, the Lord clearly taught in Matthew 25 that the wicked will share in the fate of the devil. If God were not to give the same punishment to sinners that he does to the devil, He would be unjust. And we know from Revelation that the devil will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The holiness of God demands an eternal punishment for sin.

    Jesus also described the “fire of hell” in Matthew 5 as a warning to those who insult others and in Matthew 13 as the fate of those who are among the tares. Mark 9:48 describes hell as the place where the fire never dies out. Matthew 18 may be used for one further example.
    Jesus'/Biblical references to things "burning/tormented forever and ever, eternal fire that will not be quenched, etc," if taken at face value, must be put into the context of other uses of such imagery in Scripture. Jesus is making direct references to Old Testament (Hebrew) imagery, which his audience would have known and understood, to make conceptual points. See below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 25
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 5
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell [γέεννα, Gehenna, a direct OT reference. See this post, see also for Mark 9 and Matthew 18] fire.
    Matthew 13 is a series of parables.

    There is no need to extrapolate from parables and allegories using a priori assumptions based on dogmatic tradition in order to arrive at literal doctrine. As was mentioned earlier, when debating doctrine with Nicodemus, Jesus was clear as to the ultimate fate of the righteous versus that of the wicked:

    Quote Originally Posted by John 3
    There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

    23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

    24 For John was not yet cast into prison.

    25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

    26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

    27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

    28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

    29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

    30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

    31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

    32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

    33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

    34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    Only God is immortal, and only the righteous will receive his gift of eternal life when Jesus returns. If desired, you may let me know where the Bible points to similar explicit indications that the wicked live forever in eternal fire, despite being perished, without life, knowing nothing, sleeping etc, consistent with the rest of the Scripture.

    In Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of the eternal fire that awaits the wicked. Richard Bauckham in Jude, 2 Peter
    Quote Originally Posted by Jude 7
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    Similarly:
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaiah 66
    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaiah 34
    8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

    9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

    10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

    11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

    12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

    13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

    14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

    15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

    16 Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah 17
    25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.

    26 And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of the Lord.

    27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 20
    45 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

    46 Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;

    47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

    48 And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

    49 Then said I, Ah Lord God! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?
    Are Sodom and Gomorrah literally burning with eternal fire forever/today? Is Edom? Is Jerusalem? Is Gehenna?

    What is conveyed here is the finality of God's judgement, and the tragedy of eternal separation from him in death. It is only by pure inference one could interpret the imagery to mean literal, eternal hellfire and torment, predicated on the pagan concept of an immortal soul (if the soul is immortal, it must therefore spend eternity living somewhere). Operating from such premises a priori, Scripture can be cross referenced in bits and pieces to corroborate it; however, exegesis of the consistent truth of the whole of Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16) does not, to my knowledge, comport with the traditional view of immortal souls living in eternal bliss or torment. Again, only God is immortal, and he alone will grant immortality to the righteous when Jesus returns to pass judgement on mankind. The dead are dead, and when they arise to be judged, the righteous are given immortality, and the wicked separated from God eternally in death. That is their eternal punishment. Eternal life is God's gift, not a megalomaniacal threat.


    Jesus’ story involves real people and real names, so it cannot be rendered as a parable.
    That's a curious assertion. Luke 15 begins, "3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying," whereupon Jesus recounts a serious of allegorical stories described as parables for the next 3 chapters, one of which is the tale of the rich man and Lazarus.

    The word basanizo/basanos is used in the Greek here to describe the torment suffered by the rich man. Compare Matthew 8:6, Revelation 9:5 and 14:11 and the word is used to convey conscious torment:
    Edit: I misunderstood you on this point. You are correct about basanos usage here. I was looking at the wrong verse. Looks like it occurs in one other place in Scripture, where Jesus is healing the sick from their torments.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...ngs=G931&t=KJV

    the other context you may be referring to:

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...ngs=G928&t=KJV
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 12, 2020 at 09:36 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=J3sR3z_rvQ4

    Interesting discussion of the themes raised here.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  17. #17
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    To my way of thinking if we did not have a soul how could we be given a new heart otherwise at death there would be nothing but rotting flesh. Yet it is written that heaven is populated by souls awaiting their new heavenly bodies with which we are able to live with God as do the angels. As Paul puts it for those alive or just dead when Jesus comes back, in the twinkling of an eye those above waithing plus those just raised are given these new heavenly bodies in which their souls complete the combination of what is required to be with God in a fully conscious state. It follows then that the soul is the most important part of our creation.

  18. #18
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    Jesus’ story involves real people and real names, so it cannot be rendered as a parable.
    So Platonic parables are real because they involve real people. So there is a ring of invisibility lying about in some tomb in Lydia? Addendum can never figure out why people keep looking for for Atlantis but seemingly nobody is digging up holes in Turkey looking for the ring of Gyges
    Last edited by conon394; March 30, 2022 at 07:11 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    conon394,

    Do you believe anything that is written in the Bible?

  20. #20
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Immortality of the Soul in the Bible

    How do you mean that?

    I believe that some is the actual preservation of laws and what not to define the Jewish nation and also some history although distorted in many cases and out right made to define claims and justifications. I believe it has a lot explanatory stories/myths for creation etc like all religions do that are more or less made up. I believe the genealogies in are largely mythical because you know like every other culture you can find the same again aimed at defining the order of what is and uselessly back stopping some elite segment of the populations claims to religious and political power. I certainly believe that the Jewish radical called Jesus existed. What he actually said now that is open for debate. Do I believe in the mystical stuff ascribed to him no. Do I believe Paul and Augustine for example created a neo Mancheanism new religion out of Jesus that likely he would rather surprised at yes. Do I believe your take on the seed or even the virgin birth are a heavy forced interpretations of the bible that have no basis given the clear meaning of the original preserved text of the OT , yes. Do I believe some things like Maccabees or the stories of Saul or David or Salomon are histories to some extent sure, but they are certainly filtered through the a heavy layer of propaganda and glamorizing for self consumption (some more some less).
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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