‘Oikophobia’: Our Western Self-Hatred as a sign of Western civilizational decline

[pacifism]

One does not choose to 'think this way' any more than one can choose to think this way or that way about the sky being blue. The fact is, historically mass civil revolts and revolutions have been preceded by two of the most basic wants being unsatisfied for the military age men of the population: food and sex.

LOL I'm sure surveys conducted on college campuses are going to be 100% honest hey? Especially asking young males in College whether or not they have sex on a regular basis, i hazard a guess the answer is going to be widely exaggerated. Gonna have to divide that number by 4 to get the real number there, pal.

Okay, so having evidence never really mattered to you. That clears up a lot.

Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...egrets/616725/
Seems like the growing far right political movement in the United States/Canada/Anglosphere is fuelled by the sexual frustrations of many, many, white males of military age, who are unable to find wives. This is naturally deleterious for social harmony which is why we are seeing civil war like conditions in the majority of the West today.

You mean to say that male white supremacists are often chauvinists too? Say it ain't so.

[Heathen Hammer]

Okay, so having evidence never really mattered to you. That clears up a lot.



You mean to say that male white supremacists are often chauvinists too? Say it ain't so.

Democrats, BLM and antifa are incredibly racist and chauvinistic, didn't know they are white supremacists.

[pacifism]

Yes, yes, you're being intentionally obtuse. How very clever of you.

Feel free to criticize Exarch's incel streak and alt-right, sexist white supremacists. Only attacking the critics of those things does not reflect well on you at all.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes, yes, you're being intentionally obtuse. How very clever of you.

Feel free to criticize Exarch's incel streak and alt-right, sexist white supremacists. Only attacking the critics of those things does not reflect well on you at all.

Where did I say that I agree with Exarch? What a weak deflection from the fact of major source of racism and chauvinism in the West coming from the left.

[Muizer]

1) An uncivilized and uncultured people awakens.
2) Its national identity is forged through war against surrounding peoples
3) success leads to greater wealth and prestige, such that eventually a permanent leisure class can be established
4) great wealth and lack of foreign enemies results in strife turning inwards, hence self-hatred, leading to decline/fall

This is supposedly what happened to the Ancient Greeks, the Romans, the British and the French and is now happening to the US.

That's largely irrelevant to the thread and article.

What can I say. You just retracted everything in your OP that could be construed as an argument. I accept your surrender.

[Heathen Hammer]

What can I say. You just retracted everything in your OP that could be construed as an argument. I accept your surrender.

Nope. You ignored the subject, went on a tangent, and then declared your own victory. That's not how debate works. Feel free to engage with the article or at the very list video that was also embedded into OP.

[pacifism]

Where did I say that I agree with Exarch? What a weak deflection from the fact of major source of racism and chauvinism in the West coming from the left.

Well, let's see. I was criticizing his points (I said, "hey man, that's wrong"), and then you didn't criticize him, but instead you criticized what I said (you said, "Democrats bad"). I don't know why you thought my post was worth commentating on more than his, but no need to go on tangents about The Liberals^TM here.

He seems to be making a pretty strong defense for your 'oikophobia', but if you think he's way off and you disagree with him so much, again, feel free to demonstrate it.

[Exarch]

If it would be true, that the social decline is caused by "nice", young incels getting no girl to , because they only with older men, then the decline of the west must been have much worser 200 years ago, as parents married their daughters to older men because those were already economical established enough to feed a family.

As its obviously nonsense 200 years ago, its also nonsense today.

Conservative eras even as far back as the 1940s never had OnlyFans and prostitution was frowned upon unlike today where OnlyFans and SeekingArrangements are growing in popularity in the Anglo led West. Even when the contraceptive pill was made available, such values were not drastically changed until the 80s and the internet era.

Why was the protests and riots of the 60s able to be handled well by society but the current street fights between BLM/Antifa and Proud Boys are becoming more and more deadly as to instigate civil war?

Okay, so having evidence never really mattered to you. That clears up a lot.

i answered your post sensibly, please respond properly.

You mean to say that male white supremacists are often chauvinists too? Say it ain't so.

Naturally, but the issue is that there are now so damn many of them in America and the west today.

[Gromovnik]

Democrats, BLM and antifa are incredibly racist and chauvinistic, didn't know they are white supremacists.

How are they incredibly racist and chauvinistic?

[Muizer]

Nope. You ignored the subject, went on a tangent, and then declared your own victory. That's not how debate works. Feel free to engage with the article or at the very list video that was also embedded into OP.

That's a bizarre claim. You post a link to an article and quote it at length, and when I call on you to substantiate its assertions because the article itself doesn't, you say "it's irrelevant" and "a tangent". If that is how you feel, you shouldn't have linked and quoted from the article.

[Abdülmecid I]

That's a bizarre claim. You post a link to an article and quote it at length, and when I call on you to substantiate its assertions because the article itself doesn't, you say "it's irrelevant" and "a tangent". If that is how you feel, you shouldn't have linked and quoted from the article.

There's much to substantiate. The concept itself is quite old, it can be dated at least since the times of the 4th century, when Xenophon and Isocrates associated frugality and luxury with vigour and weakness respectively, as part of derogatory remarks against the Achaemenid Great Kings (not against all Persians, though, Xenophon was eager to white-wash Cyrus the Younger, who was also his employer). Ironically, the notion of truphe actually gained possitive connotations in the Hellenistic era, when the Romans used to blame Greeks for their lavishness. Doubly ironical if you consider how extravagant opulence has nowadays been linked to public imagination with Roman wealth and materialism.

That narrative grew in significance during the Victorian era, when Christian puritanism and morality became trendy, but was transformed into a political movement with fascism and what is usually labelled as paningenetic ultranationalism. Wikipedia's summary actually shares quite a few similarities with Benedict's article. Not that the journalist copied it directly from there. His piece is essentially a somewhat more articulate transcription of a meme that remains popular among alt-right social-media circles and far-right content creators in Youtube, like Black Pigeon.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[antaeus]

It's almost like a political version of Malthusian thought. As if there's some sort of natural process at play.

I don't put much credence in Malthus... And I don't put much credence in any sort of natural political process that affects only some parts of the human population.

[Muizer]

There's much to substantiate. The concept itself is quite old, it can be dated at least since the times of the 4th century, when Xenophon and Isocrates associated frugality and luxury with vigour and weakness respectively, as part of derogatory remarks against the Achaemenid Great Kings (not against all Persians, though, Xenophon was eager to white-wash Cyrus the Younger, who was also his employer). Ironically, the notion of truphe actually gained possitive connotations in the Hellenistic era, when the Romans used to blame Greeks for their lavishness. Doubly ironical if you consider how extravagant opulence has nowadays been linked to public imagination with Roman wealth and materialism.

That narrative grew in significance during the Victorian era, when Christian puritanism and morality became trendy, but was transformed into a political movement with fascism and what is usually labelled as paningenetic ultranationalism. Wikipedia's summary actually shares quite a few similarities with Benedict's article. Not that the journalist copied it directly from there. His piece is essentially a somewhat more articulate transcription of a meme that remains popular among alt-right social-media circles and far-right content creators in Youtube, like Black Pigeon.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Interesting, but out of curiosity, was there a point you were trying to make in response to what I wrote?

[Heathen Hammer]

Well, let's see. I was criticizing his points (I said, "hey man, that's wrong"), and then you didn't criticize him, but instead you criticized what I said (you said, "Democrats bad"). I don't know why you thought my post was worth commentating on more than his, but no need to go on tangents about The Liberals^TM here.

He seems to be making a pretty strong defense for your 'oikophobia', but if you think he's way off and you disagree with him so much, again, feel free to demonstrate it.

Stop deflecting. You are the one who started talking about racism and chauvinism, which are typical traits of modern Western left, especially in US.

How are they incredibly racist and chauvinistic?

If you are ready to throw a tantrum over "its okay to be <insert race>", or "all lives matter", then you are racist and chauvinistic.

That's a bizarre claim. You post a link to an article and quote it at length, and when I call on you to substantiate its assertions because the article itself doesn't, you say "it's irrelevant" and "a tangent". If that is how you feel, you shouldn't have linked and quoted from the article.

Nah, I said that because you ignored the article and other content of OP (video breaks down the subject pretty well too) and then asked me a question that can be answered by reading the article.

There's much to substantiate. The concept itself is quite old, it can be dated at least since the times of the 4th century, when Xenophon and Isocrates associated frugality and luxury with vigour and weakness respectively, as part of derogatory remarks against the Achaemenid Great Kings (not against all Persians, though, Xenophon was eager to white-wash Cyrus the Younger, who was also his employer). Ironically, the notion of truphe actually gained possitive connotations in the Hellenistic era, when the Romans used to blame Greeks for their lavishness. Doubly ironical if you consider how extravagant opulence has nowadays been linked to public imagination with Roman wealth and materialism.

That narrative grew in significance during the Victorian era, when Christian puritanism and morality became trendy, but was transformed into a political movement with fascism and what is usually labelled as paningenetic ultranationalism. Wikipedia's summary actually shares quite a few similarities with Benedict's article. Not that the journalist copied it directly from there. His piece is essentially a somewhat more articulate transcription of a meme that remains popular among alt-right social-media circles and far-right content creators in Youtube, like Black Pigeon.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Roman's were rather pragmatic on spiritual and political matters, but their pragmatism was hardly stemming from same ideas as cult-like consumerist materialism of modern West. Romans based their actions on ruthless pragmatism, while modern Western materialism relies (ironically) on archaic idealistic beliefs of 1700s. Modern materialist appeals to "science" in the same way a priest appeals to a Diety before the altar, ironically abandoning the very core of scientific method.
So "the "narrative" isn't really a narrative, but rather objective observations of traits civilizations exhibit at various stages of their existence.

[conon394]

Culturally, yes there is decline in the form of lacklustre films compared to say 2007 and 1994 where the rise of korean film and music in america and the west is notable eg Parasite (2020) winning best picture, or the biggest band since the Beatles are a Korean boy band and since americans can't tell the difference between Asians, BTS may as well be Chinese. Let me show you the future:

OK this quote is very funny. So you do:

A: do realize that lackluster or egregiously not deserving the award describes oh so many Best Picture winners. Who cares if what I understand a good film won.
B: By referencing the beetles you explicitly accept that US pop culture accepts imports and has for a while?
C: So what you got me to listen to a BTS song. Not my preferred style but what I supposed to panic about? Would it be any worse than if we had cell phones back in the 80s I recorded my friends and I watching the Wall? Well that would be a hell of lot more boring as we slowly argued over (no I mean it really slowly) about how to light the pipe and who lost the damn chips - dude you are harshing my buzz just take your turn...

Does this strike you as healthy? Does this strike you as what a healthy functioning society would condone?

Seems fine to me.

But you know maybe your right maybe his father or mother should beat the kid. Make him conform to the manly ways of yore. Call him a fa-ggot, send him to military school. Good maybe he can grow to be a sociopath serial killer if drug abuse or suicide does get their first...

You know when my eldest daughter was 11 she decided she wanted to be a spy. She only wore black - black pants and black button down shirts and a black blazer oh and of course black glasses. Got a short pixie/butch hair cut and dyed black. Black nail polish to (although she had to do it). Painted her room black. Wanted only spy toys and foreign money for gifts (so she make a travel kit etc). Switched to wrestling for her activity - needed a martial art to be a spy. Got detention for tying to pick a lock at school ( really my fault since she asked me how to do it and I showed her a couple easy ways on easy locks) Last I checked she had fun and was done 18 months later.
So this kid is being allowed to explore the world on his own terms what is the harm in that?

People who invent the production cycle and the Model T and pioneer medical science are notable because of their rarity; very few people can be like them, hence why a society which wants everyone to be a workaholic on cocaine is going to fail. As we are seeing now in the United States.

You missed my point on the work to death it had nothing to do Henry FOrd but how he wanted to run his factories.

Or maybe FoxConn in China

https://lausan.hk/2020/15-years-stud...oxconn-worker/

decline in power and influence; you definitely see a decline in american power and influence, talking about the decline of the rest of europe compared to say the 19th c. is a moot point. American power and influence is in decline in as recent as say the coup in Kyrgyzstan, failing to install their favoured group in power as we also saw in Belarus, whereas they were previously able to do so in Armenia and Ukraine. And that's not to mention the US failing to get other countries into an anti China Quad, or failing to get the entire world to take its side vis-a-vis China and Xinjiang, or even to prevent its own allies from adopting Yuan denominated trade.

Err do think this administration even cares about Kyrgyzstan or Armenia? Iran maybe but otherwise I doubt Trump as had briefing on either of the first Two. That's not lack of influence that Indifference.

And that's not to mention the US failing to get other countries into an anti China Quad, or failing to get the entire world to take its side vis-a-vis China and Xinjiang, or even to prevent its own allies from adopting Yuan denominated trade

Again don't over confuse Trump's poor policy for systemic decline. On the Latter point however grand more demand for he Yuan means more expensive Cheese exports and a less attractive market to situate off shore manufacturing.

Not to mention the hottest app in america is a Chinese app called TikTok...

Am I caring. Overall Apple says its Zoom. TikTok is second but followed by Instagram, Snap chat, Discord, etc thay release no volume metric so whatever.

Technologically, well the 5G debacle and the anti market and mafia tactics of the US is self explanatory. The US would not need to behave as such if it were truly in the lead technologically. And 5G is not the only sector the US is falling behind...

You know you have never really explained that position and in term of anti market or distorted market China does take the cake.

Financially, well the accompanying recession/depression since 08 and the current pandemic are self explanatory, not to mention:

Am I believing a number generated by China not really. But you do realize but 2 years ago the growth number would viewed as catastrophic.

[Muizer]

you asked me a question that can be answered by reading the article.

I say it can't. Prove me wrong. Until then this statement

"Oikophobia is a natural outgrowth of the way cultures, and certainly Western cultures, develop. It occurred in ancient Greece, in Rome, in the French and British empires, and now in the United States"

Is just some guy's opinion.

[Heathen Hammer]

I say it can't. Prove me wrong. Until then this statement

"Oikophobia is a natural outgrowth of the way cultures, and certainly Western cultures, develop. It occurred in ancient Greece, in Rome, in the French and British empires, and now in the United States"

Is just some guy's opinion.

And he proves his statement in the very same paragraph:

To give a very brief overview of this development, we may say that in the beginning, a people relatively uncivilized and uncultured, but possessed of great mobility and untested strength, awakens and, as it were, goes to war in service of its deities. Initial successes against surrounding peoples lead to greater wealth and prestige, and a national identity is forged, accompanied by literary epics and other accoutrements of culture. Eventually, the people reaches its pinnacle of success, with so much wealth that a broad and permanent leisure class can be established, and this era of greatest political power will generally coincide, more or less, with the pinnacle of the nation’s cultural and scientific achievements. There is finally enough wealth and power for the leisure class, and in many cases for people lower on the social ladder as well, to become more occupied with achieving higher states of wealth and prestige vis-à-vis their countrymen than they are with the health of the community itself. This is where oikophobia sets in. Diverse interests are created that view each other as greater enemies than they do foreign threats. Since the common civilizational enemy has been successfully repulsed, it can no longer serve as an effective target for and outlet of people’s sense of superiority, and human psychology generally requires an adversary for the purpose of self-identification, and so a new adversary is crafted: other people in the same civilization. Since this condition of leisure and empowerment, as well as a perception of external threats as non-existential, are the results of a society’s success, success is, ironically, a prerequisite for a society’s self-hatred. What Freud has called the “narcissism of small differences” (in Civilization and Its Discontents)—the urge to compete against others even through minor distinctions like a virtuous action or the newest gadget—becomes one motivation through which a particular interest expresses its superiority over others.

Feel free to address that part, otherwise your argument is just elaborate gainsaying.

[conon394]

I concur with the above (edit by Muizer) it is nonsensical at worst when applied to 'ancient Greece'.

"And he proves his statement in the very same paragraph:"

No that is in fact a HS school level paper thesis. He does not in fact provide any proof to sustain this hypothesis.

[Heathen Hammer]

I concur with the above (edit by Muizer) it is nonsensical at worst when applied to 'ancient Greece'.

"And he proves his statement in the very same paragraph:"

No that is in fact a HS school level paper thesis. He does not in fact provide any proof to sustain this hypothesis.

How is it nonsensical? Without expanding on that it just sounds like generic gainsaying. Let's try to go beyond "author bad!".

[Muizer]

And he proves his statement in the very same paragraph:

Feel free to address that part, otherwise your argument is just elaborate gainsaying.

You can't be serious! That's not the proof, that's the THEORY.