‘Oikophobia’: Our Western Self-Hatred as a sign of Western civilizational decline

[Exarch]

Wow look its a solid fuel ICBM with MIRV capability. Idunno where I seen that oh wait... I think I know

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UGM-133_Trident_II

Since 1990.

or the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper

since 1986 (removed due to arms control treaty).

So the answer to



China is late to the party.

You sure about that? Wanna check the ranges of existing US ICBMs again?

DF-41 outclasses any existing western tech/ICBM in existence; like i said before, it doesn't matter how late China came to the party, the fact is the West lost the lead and its champion the Anglosphere has proven itself incapable of leading the West. Time for French or Germans to step up methinks.

By definition, when you lose the lead, you are effectively "in decline" relative to where you were previously. Therefore, the West is in decline.

More of ideology problem. Had the US protected its markets and subsidized Lucent and Nortel to level of loans Huawei got from the Chinese government back in the 90s when they made some poor market choices they likely still around. Also seeing as Nortel was heavily hacked by the Chinese seems stealing is thing for China as well.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda; yeah, sure maybe if the Soviets hadn't trusted the americans, they would still be in existence today, fact is, even after ransacking IP from Toshiba and other companies kneecapped thanks to the USG, american firms proved incapable of maintaining any unfair leads they used to steal the future. In the words of Gordon Ramsay, you can't polish a turd.

The West is in decline not because they "hate themselves", it's because the anglocentric culture which the Five Eyes try to foist upon the rest of the West is a toxic, nihilistic, materialistic, mercantilist, anti family culture which are led by kakistocracies or "bioleninists". It was always going to fail.

Also realize the current Russian R-36 is superior to the Df-21

and the straw man continues, please do try to stay relevant. I know the west is in decline but we mustn't relinquish out stringent, rigorous academic standards for debate in the Academy. But since i must explain why your point is moot, let me repeat it clearly: DF-41.

Wow it can be I sure you shower me with some hard data on the ideal or
On this one as well

The decline of the western world in the form of the youth of america wanting to become clowns or prostitutes:

American kids would much rather be YouTubers than astronauts

Source: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019...an-astronauts/

To give some context, OnlyFans has a massive 50 million users (former Atomic Kitten Kerry Katona and model Danielle Lloyd among them) and 675,000 content creators, up from around 450,000 at the start of lockdown, because make no mistake, if Covid-19 has crippled the High Street, it has reaped dividends for online platforms like this one.According to the magazine Vice, it reported more than a 75 per cent increase in new sign-ups for the month of April and gained around 250,000 new users every 24 hours.
Almost 33 per cent are between 22 and 25 years old and 29 per cent are between 18 and 21 years old.

Source: https://archive.is/oo43g#selection-1461.0-1472.0

Is this what christian evangelicals like pompeo call the "whore of babylon"?

To reiterate, the West is in decline because of anglo american domination over the West and happily we are starting to see this being shattered by the rupture of transatlantic ties between Germany and the US.

[conon394]

You sure about that? Wanna check the ranges of existing US ICBMs again?

DF-41 outclasses any existing western tech/ICBM in existence; like i said before, it doesn't matter how late China came to the party, the fact is the West lost the lead and its champion the Anglosphere has proven itself incapable of leading the West. Time for French or Germans to step up methinks.

By definition, when you lose the lead, you are effectively "in decline" relative to where you were previously. Therefore, the West is in decline.

Err do I need to not really but if it amuses you (also note corrected I typed Df-21 above)

DF-41 14-15,000 km good that's good. I mean if I was deploying them on land that's the range I would want. But we have not seen many tests comparable to those backing the Russian and US missiles have we?

LGM-118 Peacekeeper apparently 14,000 km

Russian R-36 - up to 16,000 km

Triton II oh my god you are right only 12,000 km what USA disgrace. Oh wait I forgot thay are not sitting in Kansas but a nuclear sub that you know moves all about the ocean not just the back country of China on a truck.

So China has a real MIRV ICBM. Goody for them but its basically something the US and Russia have had for decades. Again welcome to the club I guess what kept you? If we bow out of arms deals the Trition has the space for both decoys and more warheads. Is there any reason to add range - not really. Reiterate they are limited by paper has are silo based missiles not technology. China of course is not party to the same treaties.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda; yeah, sure maybe if the Soviets hadn't trusted the americans, they would still be in existence today, fact is, even after ransacking IP from Toshiba and other companies kneecapped thanks to the USG, american firms proved incapable of maintaining any unfair leads they used to steal the future. In the words of Gordon Ramsay, you can't polish a turd.

You still have not explained when and where the US ransacked Toshiba. Nothing in your source supports that position. You ignored my post #127

and the straw man continues, please do try to stay relevant. I know the west is in decline but we mustn't relinquish out stringent, rigorous academic standards for debate in the Academy. But since i must explain why your point is moot, let me repeat it clearly: DF-41.

It would appear via specks to be a fine ICBM. the number of verifiable tests is low compared to Russia and the US. But the point is so what Its still 30-50 years late to the club.

The decline of the western world in the form of the youth of america wanting to become clowns or prostitutes:

You saying it on a forum is not in fact data

Source: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019...an-astronauts/

You got one article citing one question from a non randomized and thus not actually usable or predictive survey of 8 year olds. The question itself was forced since the choices were constrained. Find me a randomized study of say HS freshmen with out a forced choice. Sorry Exarch at 8 I wanted to be a boat builder. Given the list I suppose I might pick something else on it but hardly statistical programmer and IT security specialist/sysop or whatever generalist IT job you give me 2 weeks to crash into or editing papers for business majors who can't cite things properly, can do that to - since its not on the list. Lets see now at 8: I think my daughter who now wants to be a geophysicist, wanted to be a spy. Son wanted to be hmm I guessing a bit a Fireman because thay got to climb stuff and help people... college studying programming and computer animation now. Other daughter oh that was artist, but at 12 she on about being a mathematician or a scientist like her mother. So just not sure you take that LEGO survey to be a solid predictor of anything. also of the three my youngest daughter might well have said she wanted be a blogger , and she still does but not as anything other than a hobby. But with the constrained choice she might well have picked it 4 years ago.

[Exarch]

Err do I need to not really but if it amuses you (also note corrected I typed Df-21 above)

DF-41 14-15,000 km good that's good. I mean if I was deploying them on land that's the range I would want. But we have not seen many tests comparable to those backing the Russian and US missiles have we?

LGM-118 Peacekeeper apparently 14,000 km

Russian R-36 - up to 16,000 km

Triton II oh my god you are right only 12,000 km what USA disgrace. Oh wait I forgot thay are not sitting in Kansas but a nuclear sub that you know moves all about the ocean not just the back country of China on a truck.

Irrelevant, you're talking about old tech that has already been superseded by Chinese tech as we've observed; you may as well cite smoothbore muskets over swords.

As i stated before, western self hatred had nothing to do with its own tech failings; a white anglo is perfectly capable of science as an african, but much like the Romans of 4th century were lazy, cowardly and effete and open to trans, the anglo americans of today are equally incompetent compared to the americans who gave us the model T.

You got one article citing one question from a non randomized and thus not actually usable or predictive survey of 8 year olds. The question itself was forced since the choices were constrained. Find me a randomized study of say HS freshmen with out a forced choice. Sorry Exarch at 8 I wanted to be a boat builder. Given the list I suppose I might pick something else on it but hardly statistical programmer and IT security specialist/sysop or whatever generalist IT job you give me 2 weeks to crash into or editing papers for business majors who can't cite things properly, can do that to - since its not on the list. Lets see now at 8: I think my daughter who now wants to be a geophysicist, wanted to be a spy. Son wanted to be hmm I guessing a bit a Fireman because thay got to climb stuff and help people... college studying programming and computer animation now. Other daughter oh that was artist, but at 12 she on about being a mathematician or a scientist like her mother. So just not sure you take that LEGO baked survey to be a solid predictor of anything.

I know it's hard to accept that your children will be growing up in a "Braziliafied" United States, but this is why your vote matters, and the american people have voted for fascism and/or Weimerica.

OnlyFans has increased considerably this past year, care to explain that phenomenon? The lax morals of western societies led by an Anglosphere which appears to be led by homosexuals who want to turn everyone gay? Or by sociopaths who expect humans to work until they're dead?

Let me ask you, do you accept that the West led by the United States is in decline? Answer that question first otherwise the rest of what you're discussing is just a fart in the wind.

[pacifism]

Why do you fixate on sex as the cause of this supposed incoming American collapse? I don't get what it has to do with anything.

[Exarch]

Why do you fixate on sex as the cause of this supposed incoming American collapse? I don't get what it has to do with anything.

Civil unrest and revolutions have been borne on the backs of sexless young males eg arab spring, rise of ISIS, the rape of the sabine women, etc

It's the reason why cultures which practice polygamy are inherently unstable; even now in the West we are seeing a soft form of polygamy with american females agreeing to becoming mistresses to monied older men in the form of SeekingArrangements. These females are in fact eschewing marriage and reading of children in favour of becoming veritable "whores of babylon".

This is an unstable arrangement and cannot last without instability and revolution as we are seeing with the increase in involuntary celibate attacks by young american males eg elliot rodger

[conon394]

Irrelevant, you're talking about old tech that has already been superseded by Chinese tech as we've observed; you may as well cite smoothbore muskets over swords.

A solid fuel MIRV ICBM is what China unveiled its old tech I am not sure where you get the superseded thing from except your own fantasy world. There is no superseding here just China finally deploying a nice deadly toy that that US and Russia have been building for 30-40 years. If you take a bit of time you notice that latest Russian and US missis while they have the same names are on their 3rd or maybe 6th rebuild. They are in many case the one still in service new builds and if limited its only because of treaty. As in we will only put one warhead on it and not 10 or 12 or 14 etc.

Its rather China that it is not now using swords vs muskets but muskets vs people who already have them.

As i stated before, western self hatred had nothing to do with its own tech failings; a white anglo is perfectly capable of science as an african, but much like the Romans of 4th century were lazy, cowardly and effete and open to trans, the anglo americans of today are equally incompetent compared to the americans who gave us the model T.

The Romans in the 4th century were cowardly and effete?

I don't think so. The Roman empire from the time of Octavian had never established a solid valid means of political authority that was accepted by all. While climate was good and external enemies weak and the memory of the civil wars was strong in the mind sure his edifice survived. Well enough that it rebounded in the 4th century to under Diocletian to survive. And well enough to allow what we call Byzantium to last for a good while longer.

I see no decline at that point just a very large state at the maximum of what its technology and communications and social order could hold together facing well a lot of crap at once. climate, migrations off the steppes, a more powerful rival in the East etc. In fact frankly if you want a decline point I personalty would pick the Social war (that it happened) and the Republic's reckless seizure of empire at the same time. The compact unitary state that opted for not a civil war choice to make all of Italy citizens on an equal footing and also rejected iron fasted conquest might have been a far more longer lasting state.

I know it's hard to accept that your children will be growing up in a "Braziliafied" United States, but this is why your vote matters, and the american people have voted for fascism and/or Weimerica.

You lost me there I have no ideal what you are talking about.

OnlyFans has increased considerably this past year, care to explain that phenomenon?

I suppose from just wiki people like the service. People like porn so what. You know back in late 80s I happened to be on group project at college. Programing major, Econometrics major, Actuarial major, Engineering major all in a math modeling course at 400 level. Good group one of few where there was no slacker. Blue collar lot so all working to - Food service, Welding, Stripper, And data entry... So maybe now the Engineering major could be online but the thing is don't judge people by what they do at any one time. A paying gig is a gig you don't walk away is what my Jazz trumpeter brother in law says all the time.

The lax morals of western societies led by an Anglosphere which appears to be led by homosexuals who want to turn everyone gay?

Umm err I got nothing how are you turned gay. Gays have mind powers or something what a shock.

Or by sociopaths who expect humans to work until they're dead?

Ahh call back you mean like the guy who invented the Model T you referenced.

Let me ask you, do you accept that the West led by the United States is in decline? Answer that question first otherwise the rest of what you're discussing is just a fart in the wind.

Let me ask you defined decline?

Like I said in terms of relative Military or Political hegemony yes compared to 1946 but I never denied relative decline. The US chose to allow that to happen. Culturally I don't think so I would say we are not in decline but improving but for a the Trump aberration. Technologically not really. Financially maybe - I do not like like the icy grip of short term thinking that drives investment nor the eyes wide shut pattern of ignoring wealth and income inequality. But I think those things can be addressed.

[Exarch]

A solid fuel MIRV ICBM is what China unveiled its old tech I am not sure where you get the superseded thing from except your own fantasy world. There is no superseding here just China finally deploying a nice deadly toy that that US and Russia have been building for 30-40 years. If you take a bit of time you notice that latest Russian and US missis while they have the same names are on their 3rd or maybe 6th rebuild. They are in many case the one still in service new builds and if limited its only because of treaty. As in we will only put one warhead on it and not 10 or 12 or 14 etc.

Its rather China that it is not now using swords vs muskets but muskets vs people who already have them.

More like people already having muskets and China having AK-47s; the US as the leader of the West only acquired this tech when it used to have a culture of learning and excellence rather than the current cultural revolution amongst debauchery and decadence.

The Romans in the 4th century were cowardly and effete?

I don't think so. The Roman empire from the time of Octavian had never established a solid valid means of political authority that was accepted by all. While climate was good and external enemies weak and the memory of the civil wars was strong in the mind sure his edifice survived. Well enough that it rebounded in the 4th century to under Diocletian to survive. And well enough to allow what we call Byzantium to last for a good while longer.

I see no decline at that point just a very large state at the maximum of what its technology and communications and social order could hold together facing well a lot of crap at once. climate, migrations off the steppes, a more powerful rival in the East etc. In fact frankly if you want a decline point I personalty would pick the Social war (that it happened) and the Republic's reckless seizure of empire at the same time. The compact unitary state that opted for not a civil war choice to make all of Italy citizens on an equal footing and also rejected iron fasted conquest might have been a far more longer lasting state.

i'd say in the context of the romans, that they were cowardly and effete when they hired foreign barbarians to do the fighting for them and shifted their strategy when they realised they could no longer conduct expeditionary military adventures, opting instead to pay off barbarians and instigating chaos much as the US grand strategy now is to invoke worldwide chaos as a rearguard action to shore up their declining power and influence.

Secondly, i specifically mentioned the 4th c. because that was when Rome denied its own cultural heritage and foundations in favour of christianity not unlike modern anglo americans denouncing their own heritage (moral or otherwise) with the Black Lives Matter movement, the 1619 Project, and the rise of militant black americans which J. Edgar Hoover failed to stamp out when he destroyed the Black Panthers. Militant blacks are going to be a source of instability in the future Braziliafied US (as an aside arab slavers took care to castrate african slaves whereas greedy anglo slavers wanted to breed more for profit and now their descendants are consumers of blacked pornography; ironic, no?).

I suppose from just wiki people like the service. People like porn so what. You know back in late 80s I happened to be on group project at college. Programing major, Econometrics major, Actuarial major, Engineering major all in a math modeling course at 400 level. Good group one of few where there was no slacker. Blue collar lot so all working to - Food service, Welding, Stripper, And data entry... So maybe now the Engineering major could be online but the thing is don't judge people by what they do at any one time. A paying gig is a gig you don't walk away is what my Jazz trumpeter brother in law says all the time.

America of the 80s and 90s may as well be a foreign country to the America of the 2010s-2020, much as Republican Rome would've been disgusted with the lack fo roman values and adoption of slave religions in 4th century Rome.

Secondly, unlike the 80s-90s, the "gig economy" means you have a mass of overqualified Masters graduates working at Starbucks with a second or third gig as an OnlyFans prostitute. Your average young worker in 2020 US is much, much poorer compared to the 80s and that's not even counting the massive College debt which every young graduate now has tied around his or her neck.

Personally i studied and conducted research in America in the late 00s to early 2010s and it was bad then, even with Obama because graduates couldn't find work due to the GFC and older workers not wanting to retire due to having massive loans to pay off and not having enough to retire on. If it was bad then, it's even worse now with the lack of good jobs in america, and due to the lack of good jobs in america, no way for young people to start families, buy houses.
As i said before, this is endemic in the anglo sphere and testament to the anti family, toxic culture of an american led West.

Umm err I got nothing how are you turned gay. Gays have mind powers or something what a shock.

Homosexuals in america and in effect the entire anglo led West tend to behave as identity groups and seem to act in a way designed to be counter and destructive to existing traditional western "norms". Like everything they do is a way to get back at a society that had persecuted them. eg transexual story time hour, Desmond the wonder kid in drag.

What is the purpose of applauding a child in drag?


Does this strike you as healthy? Does this strike you as what a healthy functioning society would condone?

You don't see this as much in other cultures which were more or less accepting of homosexuals eg Thailand.

Ahh call back you mean like the guy who invented the Model T you referenced.

People who invent the production cycle and the Model T and pioneer medical science are notable because of their rarity; very few people can be like them, hence why a society which wants everyone to be a workaholic on cocaine is going to fail. As we are seeing now in the United States.

Let me ask you defined decline?

Like I said in terms of relative Military or Political hegemony yes compared to 1946 but I never denied relative decline. The US chose to allow that to happen. Culturally I don't think so I would say we are not in decline but improving but for a the Trump aberration. Technologically not really. Financially maybe - I do not like like the icy grip of short term thinking that drives investment nor the eyes wide shut pattern of ignoring wealth and income inequality. But I think those things can be addressed.

decline in power and influence; you definitely see a decline in american power and influence, talking about the decline of the rest of europe compared to say the 19th c. is a moot point. American power and influence is in decline in as recent as say the coup in Kyrgyzstan, failing to install their favoured group in power as we also saw in Belarus, whereas they were previously able to do so in Armenia and Ukraine. And that's not to mention the US failing to get other countries into an anti China Quad, or failing to get the entire world to take its side vis-a-vis China and Xinjiang, or even to prevent its own allies from adopting Yuan denominated trade.

Culturally, yes there is decline in the form of lacklustre films compared to say 2007 and 1994 where the rise of korean film and music in america and the west is notable eg Parasite (2020) winning best picture, or the biggest band since the Beatles are a Korean boy band and since americans can't tell the difference between Asians, BTS may as well be Chinese. Let me show you the future:


Not to mention the hottest app in america is a Chinese app called TikTok...

Technologically, well the 5G debacle and the anti market and mafia tactics of the US is self explanatory. The US would not need to behave as such if it were truly in the lead technologically. And 5G is not the only sector the US is falling behind...

Financially, well the accompanying recession/depression since 08 and the current pandemic are self explanatory, not to mention:

[AqD]

USA does not and cannot represent western civilization and its current troubles have nothing to do with the rest.

It's among the most religious, nationalist and militant countries in the world. It's not the center, more like Danube frontier in ancient Rome, a heavily fortified buffer between the light and darkness, a place where people need to be constantly reminded how great the society is, both vocally and visually, all the freedom and such, because otherwise you wouldn't feel anything at all.

[Exarch]

USA does not and cannot represent western civilization and its current troubles have nothing to do with the rest.

Hear, hear; the US and indeed the rest of the Five Eyes are unfit to represent western civilisation; i would prefer to give that crown to the French or Germans, but you can't deny that the strong slavish and supine nature of some europeans towards the US (looking at you, poland) is a bad look and contributes to the growing anglo grip on the western world.

In fact its current troubles often transfer to the rest of the west given the psychotic and controlling nature of US Elites eg european countries forced to adopt "globohomo" laws and rules.

It's among the most religious, nationalist and militant countries in the world. It's not the center, more like Danube frontier in ancient Rome, a heavily fortified buffer between the light and darkness, a place where people need to be constantly reminded how great the society is, both vocally and visually, all the freedom and such, because otherwise you wouldn't feel anything at all.

Oh it's worse than that; the United States is an artificial state created by wannabe dukes and nobles who declared themselves the new Rome...even whilst they racially discriminated against italians and greeks in the early 20th c.

The decline of the West is an extension of the decline of the US; happily declining US power will give europeans the chance to break free and craft its own future seperate from the whims of perfidious anglos.

[Ludicus]

The article focuses on "Western Civilization", but it is applicable to the concept of civilization in general.

Certainly, but we are talking about the Western Civilization, and the topic is, "Our Western Self-Hatred as a sign of Western civilizational decline".The power transition theory simply emphasizes that when an emerging power reaches power parity with the dominant power, the global war for hegemony becomes not only possible but also probable. Long Cycles
In my opinion, there is no such a thing as a western civilizational decline. The original article was published here,Oikophobia': Our Western Self-Hatred – Quillette
It should be note that he author is a right wing lover of Trump and Netanyahu. Check his tweets.He praises Trump,


"Schools teach our children to hate their own country", says the White Supremacist- in- Chief,
------

Charles Alexandrowicz, author of Law of Nations in Global History,rightly noted,

International law shrank into a Euro-centric system which imposed on extra-Europeancountries its own ideas

In the 16th/17th centuries, the Portuguese and the Spanish had relied on papal authority/bulls to justify their civilizational role in the Americas and Africa. The process of christianizing under colonial control was thought to precede the process of civilizing them. The English also appealed to a superior being: a "wonderfull" plague was a God’s master plan : James I authorized a Patent for the Council of New England which stated that,

within these late Yeares there hath by God’s Visitation raigned a wonderfull Plague, together with many horrible Slaughters, and Murhters, committed amoungst the Savages and bruitish People...to theutter Destruction, Devastacion, and Depopulacion of that whole Territorye

The king, with God’s master plan on his side, assigned land rights to the Virginia Company for the purpose of spreading Christianity from modern day Florida to Maine.

In1910 Jules Harmand argued that,

It is necessary to accept as a principle and point of departure the fact that there is a hierarchy of races and civilizations, and that we(Europeans/Westerners) belong to the superior race and civilization. Legitimation of conquest over native peoples is the conviction of our superiority, not merely our mechanical, economic, and military superiority, but our moral superiority, and it underlies our right to direct the rest of humanity.

In the 19th century,the Italian jurist Pasquale Fiore,leading authority on international law, argued that,

as a matter of principle, colonization and colonial expansion cannot be questioned.

In the same century, John Westlake, a distinguished English jurist, also argued,

The inflow of the white race cannot be stopped where there is land to cultivate,ore to be mined, commerce to be developed, sport to enjoy, curiosity to be satisfied.

In an almost similar way, Hegel wrote,

In a similar way the Cid fights against the Moors; in Tasso and Ariosto the Christians fight against the Saracens, in Camoens the Portuguese against the Indians. And so in almost all the great epics we see peoples different in Morals, religion, speech, in short in mind and surroundings, arrayed against one another; and we are made completely at peace by the world-historically justified victory of the higher principle over the lower which succumbs to a bravery that leaves nothing over the defeated. In this sense, the epics of the past describe the triumph of the West over the East, the triumph of European moderation, and the individual beauty of a reason that sets limits to itself

It should be noted that Hegel's Philosophy of History influenced German nationalism in the 19th century.
----
For Stuart Mill, conquests are justified because,

barbarous nations have not progressed beyond the period during which it is likely to be for their benefit thatthey should be conquered and held in subjection by foreigners

Let's hear Arthur Balfour’s speech to the British House of Commons of June 13, 1910,

We know the civilization of Egypt better than we know the civilization of any other country. We know it farther back; we know it more ntimately; we know more about it .The well-being of Egypt and its people was best entrusted to the hands of the British. Western nations as soon as they emerge into history show the beginnings of those capacities for self-government. One may look through the whole history of the Orientals and you never find traces of self-government. Conqueror has succeeded conqueror; one domination has followed another; but never in all the revolutions of fate and fortune have you seen one of those nations of its own motionestablish what we, from a Western point of view, callself-government. That is the fact.
We are in Egypt not merely for the sake of the Egyptians, though we are there for their sake; we arethere also for the sake of Europe at large.

In1899, the US formally became a colonial power, taking possession of the Philippines, Guam, Puerto Rico, and Cuba. Theodore Roosevelt wrote,

On the border between civilization and barbarism war is generally normal because it must be under the conditions of barbarism. Whether thebarbarian be the Red Indian on the frontier of the United States, theAfghan on the border of British India, or the Turkoman who confronts the Siberian Cossack, the result is the same. In the long run civilized man finds he can keep the peace only by subduing hisbarbarian neighbor

In the same year,1899, Kypling published his "The White Man's Burden: The United States and the Philippine Islands". The article is an hymn to US imperialism, in which he invites the US to assume colonial control of Phillipines.
--------
To conclude.
It's not difficult to understand that colonialism is practice of domination/subjugation /opression of one people to another. It seems that what might be the best of intentions, the outcomes of our wonderful western civilization, historically speaking, are all too often destructive. That's the the reason why Appiah wrote that the values of liberty, tolererance and rational inquiry are not the birthright of a single culture, and when we talk about the Western culture, we need to know what we really are talking about.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

I see a new bestseller coming: "The American's Burden: Bringing the light of Prosperty, Rule of law, Democracy and Liberty into the Darkness of the World."

I don't think the Western Culture is in decline, i think the world order is swinging back into a balance after 3 decades of too much western dominance.

[Coughdrop addict]

Why do you fixate on sex as the cause of this supposed incoming American collapse? I don't get what it has to do with anything.

Because certain developmentally stunted men think that women not throwing themselves at their feet is a good reason for murder. It's why they praises and sympathize with Elliot Rodger.

Exarch, it doesn't matter how old you are. If you are expecting sex to fix your life, or to boost your ego, or think you won't be a complete person without sex, then you are not mature enough to be having sex.

[pacifism]

Civil unrest and revolutions have been borne on the backs of sexless young males eg arab spring, rise of ISIS, the rape of the sabine women, etc

It's the reason why cultures which practice polygamy are inherently unstable; even now in the West we are seeing a soft form of polygamy with american females agreeing to becoming mistresses to monied older men in the form of SeekingArrangements. These females are in fact eschewing marriage and reading of children in favour of becoming veritable "whores of babylon".

This is an unstable arrangement and cannot last without instability and revolution as we are seeing with the increase in involuntary celibate attacks by young american males eg elliot rodger

But why choose to think this way? Why choose to be so angry?

Your whole premise makes no sense. No one is obliged to be in a relationship with anyone. No man deserves a woman, no matter how "nice" he is. Being nice is just a basic expectation for any decent human behavior. Elliot Rodger's killing spree is not the result of any woman's actions. It's the result of his own. If he really was such a gentleman, he wouldn't have killed anyone over his feelings of rejection. It's deeply wrong to blame the women^TM in this or any other case of violence caused by hateful men.

I almost don't know who should be more insulted: the young men that you claim teeter towards becoming killers and extremists if they aren't placated with sex - as if that's remotely healthy and normal - or women, whom you place the blame on for not wanting to be in a relationship with such a person. It's women, by the way.

[Exarch]

But why choose to think this way? Why choose to be so angry?

One does not choose to 'think this way' any more than one can choose to think this way or that way about the sky being blue. The fact is, historically mass civil revolts and revolutions have been preceded by two of the most basic wants being unsatisfied for the military age men of the population: food and sex.

We saw this with the arab spring: increases in grain prices and a mass of your unemployed and sexually frustrated males turning to revolution and the Islamic State.

We are seeing this now with the rise of the 'alt right' in the west, with white supremacist militia groups battling it out o the streets with anti fascists who may or may not also come from these same unemployed, sexless demographics of young males.

I almost don't know who should be more insulted: the young men that you claim teeter towards becoming killers and extremists if they aren't placated with sex - as if that's remotely healthy and normal - or women, whom you place the blame on for not wanting to be in a relationship with such a person. It's women, by the way.

You mistake my commitment to the truth as having a dog in the fight; fact is, i don't. I am indifferent if american or western males are able to get sex or money, but i have observed a startling shift to the right since tinder/OnlyFans etc came onto the scene in the past 10 years coupled with the fact that a startling proportion of american males in their 20s nowadays are effectively virgins or the involuntary celibate which was definitely not the case when i was in College.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ession/573949/
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...y-loss/284412/

You have a mass of sexless angry young men who are told some kibosh about "huwheatfields", like the white western version of "72 virgins" and who then become a political force of violence not unlike what we saw in the Arab Spring which climaxed into the Islamic State:

Exarch, it doesn't matter how old you are. If you are expecting sex to fix your life, or to boost your ego, or think you won't be a complete person without sex, then you are not mature enough to be having sex.

come now with the ad hominems; seems i'm hitting a little too close to home for some of our western white males here.

I'm a realist enough to understand that people need sex and food as per Maslow's hierarchy of needs and a glaring mass of white american/western/anglo males are not getting it, and we re going to see mass violence because of it.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I’m getting tired of seeing these fan fiction serials in every single thread, so here goes. To say the least, it’s probably not a good idea to examine geopolitics through the lens of personal fantasy. According to data from the last 10 years:



75% of 25-29 and 30-39 year olds report having sexual intercourse within the last 30 days.

“It’s not just young men who are having less sex than a generation ago, it’s young women, too,” said Jeffrey Jensen Arnett, PhD, a research professor at Clark University in Massachusetts and originator of the theory of “emerging adulthood” — defined as the time from the end of adolescence to the beginning of young-adult responsibilities such as a stable job, marriage, and parenthood.

“It’s part of an overall trend toward less risky behavior since 1990, including not only sex but alcohol use, risky driving, and criminal activity,” Dr. Arnett told Healthline.

Porn probably isn’t the problem, added Twenge, since research shows that pornography users are actually more sexually active.

Rather, she suggested, the vast entertainment options offered by the internet and digital media as a whole may be distracting young people from developing real-life relationships.

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...ess-frequently

According to survey results in China, the average age a person becomes sexually active is 22-23 years old, and less than half (46% of men, 39% of females) have any sexual experience by age 24. I guess we should expect Chinese society to collapse in on itself soon.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/def...ls/3819612.pdf

Seems like this idea of civilizational decline translating to sex-starved maniacs is predicated on the idea women are s who don’t give certain men - let’s call them, nice guys - a chance.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Exarch]

IÂ’m getting tired of seeing these fan fiction serials in every single thread, so here goes. To say the least, itÂ’s probably not a good idea to examine geopolitics through the lens of personal fantasy. According to data from the last 10 years:



75% of 25-29 and 30-39 year olds report having sexual intercourse within the last 30 days.

LOL I'm sure surveys conducted on college campuses are going to be 100% honest hey? Especially asking young males in College whether or not they have sex on a regular basis, i hazard a guess the answer is going to be widely exaggerated. Gonna have to divide that number by 4 to get the real number there, pal.
In any case,
Strawman, the issue isn't so much the having of sex, it is the sexual access for the majority of young males in the US; we can see the massive popularity of the "manosphere" and the rise in "inceldom" "men's rights activists cum white nationalists" that if there is sex being had, it certainly isn't them who are having it, as their increasing numbers show.

According to survey results in China, the average age a person becomes sexually active is 22-23 years old, and less than half (46% of men, 39% of females) have any sexual experience by age 24. I guess we should expect Chinese society to collapse in on itself soon.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/def...ls/3819612.pdf

Happily, China is a prosocial culture whereby most young 20-somethings are already married (parental/social pressure or otherwise) lest the fear of females becoming shengnu, and more importantly are more likely to contribute to society via work, taxes and assets. Family support ensures that wayward sons will not join movements like "the Alt-right", the worse that could happen is joining a cult and even then those who are corrupted by cults can be easily controlled. We do not see this same trend in the United States, nor the vast majority of the West where the growing far right/fascist forces are already running roughshod over western democratic "norms".

Hell, home ownership, the very basis of a stable family for young couples is beyond reach for the entirety of Gen. Y/Millenials to Zoomers. This is also going to contribute to civil unrest.

Seems like this idea of civilizational decline translating to sex-starved maniacs is predicated on the idea women are s who donÂ’t give certain men - letÂ’s call them, nice guys - a chance.

Allow me to read to you the conduct of white supremacists who follow Lauren Southern:

Hutcheson looked uneasy as his girlfriend(Lauren Southern) continued to talk about her career ambitions. “All of us Europeans have the responsibility to reproduce,” he interjected.Southern looked down at her plate. “That’s a very cold way of putting it,” she responded. “Do you want to have a family for the sake of love or just because it’s a duty thing?”
“Motherhood is to women as war is to men,” her boyfriend replied stolidly. “I want to serve my nation.”

one man messaged her saying he hoped she was “raped” to the point of having her “face destroyed,” so she could never benefit from her looks again.

She didn’t say much as we passed a series of bucolic dairy farms. Then she began to cry. A former fan had become a sex-crazed stalker, messaging her numerous times a day and posting personal information about her family and friends on social media. She was so worried about getting hit on by far-right figures that she refused to attend fund-raising meetings without a chaperone. Even McInnes had not stopped sending flirtatious messages to her, she said. She didn’t know what to do, or whom to tell. If her father found out, it would “break him,” she said. He was a huge fan of conservative pundits like McInnes.

Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...egrets/616725/
Seems like the growing far right political movement in the United States/Canada/Anglosphere is fuelled by the sexual frustrations of many, many, white males of military age, who are unable to find wives. This is naturally deleterious for social harmony which is why we are seeing civil war like conditions in the majority of the West today.

[Ludicus]

...or think you won't be a complete person without sex, then you are not mature enough to be having sex.

Well,well,

Camões, Os Lusíadas, Canto IX, stanza 83

"...Is better tried, than guessed, I must confess:
But Those who cannot try it, let them guess"

• (tr. Sir Richard Fanshawe, 1608–1666).

[Heathen Hammer]

You keep saying that but where's the proof?

For clarity's sake I've done my best to reduce the cyclic theory involving oikophobia in the stage of decline to 4 fairly discrete phases

1) An uncivilized and uncultured people awakens.
2) Its national identity is forged through war against surrounding peoples
3) success leads to greater wealth and prestige, such that eventually a permanent leisure class can be established
4) great wealth and lack of foreign enemies results in strife turning inwards, hence self-hatred, leading to decline/fall

This is supposedly what happened to the Ancient Greeks, the Romans, the British and the French and is now happening to the US.

This is central to the case you're trying to make.

I think you should start by naming the concrete time frames for each of these phases and for each of the civilizations this supposedly applied to.

As I said, if you cannot prove that this cycle exists and has predictive value, then you're left with nothing more than the age old sentiment (or perhaps I should say 'old age sentiment') that "things are going down hill".

That's largely irrelevant to the thread and article. The modern progressive mythology of "linear" history is debunked by history itself.
The point is that West is exhibiting same symptoms (oikophobia, forced cosmopolitan ideology, corrupt and degenerate elites, influx of non-homogenous barbarian populations from abroad) that other civilizations did prior to their collapse.
So the argument "well West still has strong economy and has many armies" doesn't really work, since so did WRE and many other ones that fell directly prior to their fall.
The fall of civilization is caused by internal factors, not external ones. For example Roman military power was almost wiped out several times throughout 200s BC, but Rome still prevailed because her society was strong and healthy.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

If it would be true, that the social decline is caused by "nice", young incels getting no girl to , because they only with older men, then the decline of the west must been have much worser 200 years ago, as parents married their daughters to older men because those were already economical established enough to feed a family.

As its obviously nonsense 200 years ago, its also nonsense today.

[Heathen Hammer]

If it would be true, that the social decline is caused by "nice", young incels getting no girl to , because they only with older men, then the decline of the west must been have much worser 200 years ago, as parents married their daughters to older men because those were already economical established enough to feed a family.

As its obviously nonsense 200 years ago, its also nonsense today.

Sounds rather nonsensical and irrelevant to anything that was said in this thread.