‘Oikophobia’: Our Western Self-Hatred as a sign of Western civilizational decline

[Exarch]

You waltz around spreading your supposedly undeniable truth about the superiority of China and how we should slavishly submit to the Chinese. Seriously, Exarch, what do you even want? Do you want the "anglos" to wake up and take power or do you want us all to submit to the Chinese overlords?

Hey now, i am actually indifferent and objective re 'western culture' which has been hijacked by anglos who try to claim the mantle of western leadership. The thread asked for a reason as to why the west was in decline and i provided the answer: the west is in decline because it was never sustainable; the only thing keeping the west together as a distinct polity was white privilege and the ability to feel superior over other nations and when that is taken away, they turn on each other to feel superior against somebody...anybody.

You see this in the isolationist and toxic culture of western anglo culture; what culture thinks it's ok to spend 80+ hours working for ? a culture that is so anti family that birth rates are plummeting? A culture so decadent that it believes "Pozzing" innocents is an acceptable state of affairs? Even the internet culture of the west, specifically the english speaking internet is snarky, negative and vindictive, but that is to be expected of a generation led and raised by weak fathers and single mothers.

[swabian]

Hey now, i am actually indifferent and objective re 'western culture' which has been hijacked by anglos who try to claim the mantle of western leadership. The thread asked for a reason as to why the west was in decline and i provided the answer: the west is in decline because it was never sustainable;

The west isn't in decline at all. Again, it's immense and actually applaudable upsurge of other countries that relativize the otherwise overwhelming power of the western world. The sad thing is that all of this is indeed not sustainable. We cannot really have billions of 2nd world citizens rise to 1st world standard and in doing so destroy any future for anyone who is born after about 2100.

the only thing keeping the west together as a distinct polity was white privilege and the ability to feel superior over other nations and when that is taken away, they turn on each other to feel superior against somebody...anybody.

How did that hold anything together? Do you think, people start to have better, more sustainable engineering because they lose themselves in some delusions of grandeur? It's so absurd what you are saying that i refrain from gloating, because this would only fuel your nonsense.

You see this in the isolationist and toxic culture of western anglo culture; what culture thinks it's ok to spend 80+ hours working for ? a culture that is so anti family that birth rates are plummeting? A culture so decadent that it believes "Pozzing" innocents is an acceptable state of affairs? Even the internet culture of the west, specifically the english speaking internet is snarky, negative and vindictive, but that is to be expected of a generation led and raised by weak fathers and single mothers.

Yeah, how about you check that point by point and really think hard about how this looks like in non-western countries. For example your much revered China.

[Muizer]

Are you suggesting that Western self-hatred doesn't exist? That we didn't witness violent mob destroying historical statues of different historical figures that were only united by the fact that they were Western? Are you saying that oikophobes didn't have a meltdown over "its okay to be white" posters? I mean saying that this isn't a thing is just blatant denial of objective reality, especially in light of the recent and ongoing events.

If that is what you wanted to discuss, you should have limited yourself to this and not have tried to tie that in with this mythology civilizational cycles.

However I understand why you bring it up. Without axiomaticlaly declaring past greatness as a benchmark of all that is good, all you have left to criticize what's happening now is "I don't like the way things are going". It becomes a pure value judgement.

As I have stated before, objectively there's little to suggest the evolving, distinctly unpatriotic, globalist, multinational, politically over-correct, morally bankrupt (insert pretty much all the things you hate here) iteration of Western culture is not continuing and expanding its hegemony in the world. Based on past experience, there's every reason to think it far more likely that the West will in end up exporting what you call "self hatred" to other cultures than that it will succumb to it itself.

Don't get me wrong, you're welcome to your value judgement about this iteration of Western culture. Certainly not everything that is successful at such grand scales is by necessity desirable for individuals. Periods in history designated as 'glorious' or 'heroic' more often than not were the worst to live through for common folk. However, if you want to convince people western civilization is actually in decline you have to do more than reference mythology.

[Exarch]

The west isn't in decline at all. Again, it's immense and actually applaudable upsurge of other countries that relativize the otherwise overwhelming power of the western world. The sad thing is that all of this is indeed not sustainable. We cannot really have billions of 2nd world citizens rise to 1st world standard and in doing so destroy any future for anyone who is born after about 2100..

To have billions of people living as wastefully as westerners do, that is not sustainable- on that we can agree. That China is committed to renewable energy and a carbon neutral economy by 2060 and taking the lead on this as opposed to any western nation should be testament to the fact that the West is indeed in decline.

Take the fact that the USG can't even kill a Chinese tech company from Shenzhen whereas it was able to kill toshiba and Alstrom and steal their patents, and this is despite kidnapping the daughter of the CEO and Founder of Huawei. Truly, US and by extension Western power is in decline.

How did that hold anything together? Do you think, people start to have better, more sustainable engineering because they lose themselves in some delusions of grandeur? It's so absurd what you are saying that i refrain from gloating, because this would only fuel your nonsense.

racism and mud sill theory was how the United States kept itself together, how other non anglo western nations keep themselves together i am not so sure. Perhaps this is why non anglo western nations tend to be more stable compared to the United States, save those which have allowed in mass numbers of africans and middle easterners.

Yeah, how about you check that point by point and really think hard about how this looks like in non-western countries. For example your much revered China

How does all this look to China? It looks like crap tbh, western societies, specifically anglo societies are nihilist in nature and it shows.

[conon394]

Take the fact that the USG can't even kill a Chinese tech company from Shenzhen whereas it was able to kill toshiba and Alstrom and steal their patents, and this is despite kidnapping the daughter of the CEO and Founder of Huawei. Truly, US and by extension Western power is in decline.

When did the USG kill Toshiba. Suicide via your own managerial incompetence is not murder. Can't see how Alstrom is dead. I see a lot international commemorates jockeying to buy some of Alstrom or swap stuff when they were down but GE was only one of many from many corporations. Not really sure what you are talking about.

[Exarch]

When did the USG kill Toshiba. Suicide via you managerial incompetence is not murder. Can't see how Alstrom is dead. I see a lot international commemorates jockeying to buy some of Alstrom or swap stuff when they were down but GE was only one of many from many corporations. Not really sure what you are talking about.

Lessons from Toshiba, Alstom: how US suppresses foreign rival companies to maintain tech hegemony

Source: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1202395.shtml

I'm sure anglo america would have you believe that its own sci/tech development since the 80s were due to superior anglo-german genetics when the truth is that it simply bullied and stole tech from other nations, as it is now trying and failing to do with Huawei. That '5G' that the Pentagon just tried to copy from huawei? Useless as tits on a bull, they're going to have to pay royalties to Huawei sooner or later which is going right into Huawei's R&D budget.

And on the note of US R&D, it's not going to have the $$$ nor the human genetic IQ capital to out innovate China, unless another country from 'the West' is going to become a new hegemonies (quite impossible given how jealousy the anglos have kneecapped other western/european nations). It would have been Deutschland considering germans have the work ethic and native IQ to become a superpower but they are only 80mln and have been subverted by anglos for too long.

And let us not get into the myth or reality of The Great Replacement, the decline of the West due to not enough pure aryan babies being born or being born from white females getting blacked and producing future tyrones and obamas.

[conon394]

And let us not get into the myth or reality of The Great Replacement, the decline of the West due to not enough pure aryan babies being born or being born from white females getting blacked and producing future tyrones and obamas.

Racist fervor dream much?

And on the note of US R&D, it's not going to have the $$$ nor the human genetic IQ capital to out innovate China, unless another country from 'the West' is going to become a new hegemonies (quite impossible given how jealousy the anglos have kneecapped other western/european nations). It would have been Deutschland considering germans have the work ethic and native IQ to become a superpower but they are only 80mln and have been subverted by anglos for too long.

Native IQ. You ever look at how poor their Nuclear program was?

I'm sure anglo america would have you believe that its own sci/tech development since the 80s were due to superior anglo-german genetics when the truth is that it simply bullied and stole tech from other nations, as it is now trying and failing to do with Huawei. That '5G' that the Pentagon just tried to copy from huawei? Useless as tits on a bull, they're going to have to pay royalties to Huawei sooner or later which is going right into Huawei's R&D budget

Stole you keep using that word but I don't think it means what you think.

Besides do try to be consistent you just said German IQ was superior but now German genetics are myth. Not that I believe either part of your screed consistency makes it look a little better.

Source: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1202395.shtml

ahh poor conspiracy minded link.

The Headline and conclusion is well wrong

"and its market share of DRAM (dynamic random access memory) products reached some 80 percent in 1987, according to a Los Angeles Times article in August 1992."

Well no that is not what LA Times article said. Although the data do show the 80% is possibly correct but be clear for all of Japan. Figures I can find for 1987 are for top 10 (amounting to 92.2% of DRAM Market share world wide)

17.3%Toshiba (J)
14.1%NEC (J)
12.0%Mitsubishi (J)
11.0%Texas Intrustremnts (US)
10.7%Hitachi (J)
9.2%Fujitsu (J)
7.1%Samasung (ROK)
4.7%OKI (J)
4.2%Micron (USA)
1.9%Sharp (J)

(*)


Now the thing is Toshiba was the largest but the ban imposed on it for you know actually committing an export crime was just 2 years of exports to the US. That was also filed with waivers and exceptions. The same penalty was in fact delivered to it Norwegian co conspirator Kongsberg. It is true an additional year was added for government buys but that about it. Now I'm not saying the 2 year with exception is not painful but that was 4 billion sales out of over 22 Billion world wide.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-4cdc5244fe4c/
https://www.globalsecurity.org/intel...ia/toshiba.htm

Toshiba did not collapse. The harshest penalties it faced were inflicted by the Japanese government anyway. The US got no trove of IP out of the affair. and in 1990 Toshiba was still the world leader in basic DRAM production at 22%. And Japan over all since none of the others suffered. The US did not get factories and ship than to the US or some such. As late 1992 the overall Japanese dominance of the market was secure. The US did not subsidize Micron or TI (or convince IBM to get back the dram market) to fill any slack in that two years nor care.

What really happened is Japanese producers got complacent and did not see the rise of Taiwan, Singapore and the ROK producing at at lower price and realizing they could also under cut Japan and the last US company standing Micron on quality as well (or rather that lower quality and thus still lower price would still sell).

Also the early 90s are bout the last time you really can mostly correlate country of company to where its fabs are.




* A Study of the DRAM industry


By Joonkyu Kang B.S., Sogang University, 2001 Submitted to the MIT Sloan School of Management At the Massachusetts Institute of Technology June2010
(page 11)

[Heathen Hammer]

If that is what you wanted to discuss, you should have limited yourself to this and not have tried to tie that in with this mythology civilizational cycles.

However I understand why you bring it up. Without axiomaticlaly declaring past greatness as a benchmark of all that is good, all you have left to criticize what's happening now is "I don't like the way things are going". It becomes a pure value judgement.

As I have stated before, objectively there's little to suggest the evolving, distinctly unpatriotic, globalist, multinational, politically over-correct, morally bankrupt (insert pretty much all the things you hate here) iteration of Western culture is not continuing and expanding its hegemony in the world. Based on past experience, there's every reason to think it far more likely that the West will in end up exporting what you call "self hatred" to other cultures than that it will succumb to it itself.

Don't get me wrong, you're welcome to your value judgement about this iteration of Western culture. Certainly not everything that is successful at such grand scales is by necessity desirable for individuals. Periods in history designated as 'glorious' or 'heroic' more often than not were the worst to live through for common folk. However, if you want to convince people western civilization is actually in decline you have to do more than reference mythology.

Civilization cycles are not mythology. Objectively speaking, Western civilization is in decline, and oikophobia has been common to all declining civilizations, be it self-hating Roman Christians in 300s AD or self-hating Western marxists in 2020 AD.

The main flaw in your argument, is that your assumption is simply based on economics, which clearly isn't enough to prevent civilization's decline and collapse. Even shortly before its collapse, WRE was a very powerful state with numerous armies and huge economy, but it still fell, because collapse comes form the inside, not outside.
British Empire commanded almost half the known world, if not more, but it still the bed.
Same goes for USSR.
In the same way, Western economies and military prowess become irrelevant, once the inside is rotten.

[conon394]

Civilization cycles are not mythology. Objectively speaking, Western civilization is in decline, and oikophobia has been common to all declining civilizations, be it self-hating Roman Christians in 300s AD or self-hating Western marxists in 2020 AD.

You still have defined either the west or its peak.

be it self-hating Roman Christians in 300s AD

So now it Christians that were the problem I thought it was Roman tourism to Egypt. So how again are these Christians causing the fall of Rome in 300 AD? And If it was Christianity then well the west has a problem for a long time.

Even shortly before its collapse, WRE was a very powerful state with numerous armies and huge economy, but it still fell, because collapse comes form the inside, not outside.

The Roman Empire was always hurt the original weakness of the Imperial system Octavian created. But the simple fact is the WRE faced just to many enemies to deal with and crap boarders to defend.

British Empire commanded almost half the known world, if not more, but it still the bed.

Yes of that nice map painting how many people in 1900 were really enjoying the fruits of that map painting or had a say in what war it blundered into that might see their lives ruined. Yes the sun never set on a very fine empire for upper middle class and above white men in Great Britain (but not Irish) a tiny fragment of the whole. Not sure it got about to rising for many others in the Empire.

[Muizer]

Civilization cycles are not mythology. Objectively speaking, Western civilization is in decline, and oikophobia has been common to all declining civilizations

You keep saying that but where's the proof?

For clarity's sake I've done my best to reduce the cyclic theory involving oikophobia in the stage of decline to 4 fairly discrete phases

1) An uncivilized and uncultured people awakens.
2) Its national identity is forged through war against surrounding peoples
3) success leads to greater wealth and prestige, such that eventually a permanent leisure class can be established
4) great wealth and lack of foreign enemies results in strife turning inwards, hence self-hatred, leading to decline/fall

This is supposedly what happened to the Ancient Greeks, the Romans, the British and the French and is now happening to the US.

This is central to the case you're trying to make.

I think you should start by naming the concrete time frames for each of these phases and for each of the civilizations this supposedly applied to.

As I said, if you cannot prove that this cycle exists and has predictive value, then you're left with nothing more than the age old sentiment (or perhaps I should say 'old age sentiment') that "things are going down hill".

[Heathen Hammer]

You still have defined either the west or its peak.

Western civilization is a rather conventional notion.

So now it Christians that were the problem I thought it was Roman tourism to Egypt. SO how again are these Christians causing the fall of Rome in 3000 AD? And If it Christianity then well the west has a problem for a long time.

Christianity weakened Roman Empire from the inside, kinda like progressive gobbledygook is weakening West today. Both ideologies were incredibly oikophobic to their hos civilizations.

The roman empire was always hurt the original weakness of the Imperial system Octavian created. But the simple fact is the WRE faced just to many enemies to deal with and crap boarders to defend.

Rome existed as de-facto superpower under Octavian system for centuries. As I said, even shortly before the collapse it was a powerful state.

Yes of that nice map painting how many people in 1900 were really enjoying the fruits of that map painting or had a say in what war it blundered into that might see their lives ruined.

Irrelevant. The point was addressed to debunk Muzier's argument that West isn't declining because Western nations have strong armies and rich economies.

[conon394]

@Muizer

I still feel you can't include the Greeks since out side of the most vague ties of language and really basic culture thay do not fit any piece of the model. I mean honestly I think maybe only Rome hangs on the scaffold but the fact is even than 4 fails. Although I would admit that really depends on where you put the supposed golden apex.

[Exarch]

Racist fervor dream much?

Don't lay that at my door, tell that to the QAnon/white nationalists which now infest every major western country, spearheaded by factions in the USG/military.
A clear sign of civilisational decline is when active components of the governing apparatus and military undermine the government.

Native IQ. You ever look at how poor their Nuclear program was?

Last time i heard, the world's longest ranged and advanced ICBM was definitely not from a western country.

Stole you keep using that word but I don't think it means what you think.

Besides do try to be consistent you just said German IQ was superior but now German genetics are myth. Not that I believe either part of your screed consistency makes it look a little better.



ahh poor conspiracy minded link.

Nice straw man, please address the fact that these racial philosophies are very popular amongst the growing american far right/rightist factions, eg the QAnon brigade, and you never addressed the article, Kindly reread the article and address each of the points therein.

Because as we speak, the white anglo supremacists in Washington are trying to fight their own decline not by improving themselves or being better, but trying to sling mud and take down others. Targeting rival firms may have worked with allied nations in the past, but is proving to be...less than satisfactory when it comes to the world's greatest civilisation in the world: China.

latest eg, the US pathetically trying to sanction the IPO of a Chinese payment processor that will be bigger than Citibank and JP Morgan, despite US Elites jumping on the bandwagon and wanting to throw billions into the IPO
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-a...15-p56580.html

Question, how is the USG going to sanction Chinese banks that don't use the USD, where the IPO will all be in Yuan and where the operations of Ant Financial are going to be based in China?

[conon394]

Last time i heard, the world's longest ranged and advanced ICBM was definitely not from a western country.

And it would be where exactly?

[Exarch]

And it would be where exactly?

May i introduce you to the DF-41, guaranteed delivery , worldwide 24/7.




Source:https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/df-41/

The fact that western white anglos couldn't come up with 5G innovation, nor the DF-41 is indicative of the massive decline in western tech supremacy. In fact a case can be made that much of America's innovations and sci/tech R&D from the late 20th-early 21st century came from Chinese Americans rather than from aryan western white americans, most fo whom now want to become OnlyFans models and Youtubers rather than astronauts and scientists.

As i mentioned earlier, the West was never sustainable because the very essence of western values are nihilistic and consumerist; anti family, workaholics. It was doomed to failure.

[Lord Thesaurian]

However the 5G “race” turns out, it’s fairly simplistic to track it as a barometer of Sino-US geopolitical competition. 5G provides many comparative benefits for related hardware and infrastructure, but consumers wouldn’t necessarily see the cumulative benefits of this advancement until it’s throughly built out and becomes the norm. And by then, does anyone suppose international relations will be riding on how that developed? I don’t, given there are any number of other factors that are already progressing on a much more visible and incendiary track.

As it relates to decline of this or that civilization, the connection becomes even more abstract. For one thing, the pioneers of 5G tech weren’t Chinese nor American, but Korean. That’s the thing about tiny countries. Always a bridesmaid. From last year:

South Korea’s claim that it launched the world’s first 5G network in April might be somewhat contested in the U.S. — with some arguing that because it was only available to select celebrities, it didn’t really count — but there is no doubt that the country has a massive lead over much of the rest of the world.

In August, data showed that only four months after local carriers commercially launched the technology, the number of 5G subscribers in South Korea hit the 2 million mark, and according to the GSM Association, South Korean 5G users accounted for 77% of the global population of 5G users by the end of June.

A byproduct of rushing to deploy 5G – which South Korea certainly did in an effort to be the first – the need to upswitch is the result of wireless operators and equipment vendors deciding to implement non-standalone (NSA) 5G first, which requires the support of a 4G LTE network to perform certain functions like voice calling.

https://www.rcrwireless.com/20190912...t-its-learning

Factors like this in the practical application and use of 5G tech is why the “first past the post” concept that hearkens back to space race dynamics isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Basically, being the first on the moon doesn’t mean much unless you can generate a habitable environment there. Similarly, serving as the Chinese mascot early on in the tech war meant Huawei faced the brunt of related US sanctions and also got committed and high profile backing from the Politburo and patriotic Chinese consumers. All the same, the company is dealing with domestic sales competition from Xiaomi, Oppo and Vivo, as well as internationally from Samsung and European firms. Unless Huawei can manage to pitch its alternative to Google/Android successfully, it will prove more of a sacred cow than the global infrastructure security threat suggested by many in the USG.

At the crux of Huawei’s withdrawal is an annual $27 billion opportunity for its competitors — including Nokia, Ericsson and Samsung — to become the go-to providers of 5G and other telecommunication services to domestic carriers, says Ryan Koontz, an analyst at Rosenblatt Securities. “It’s a massive economic transition,” says Koontz. “It’s relatively urgent for these carriers to make the change.”

The multi-billion dollar market opportunity, which hinges on Huawei’s sales figures for the year ended September, will not evaporate overnight, Koontz says, but will likely be absorbed over the next three to four years.
Because Huawei’s equipment is largely non-existent in the US, the most recent sanctions primarily affect its Asia, Latin America and European markets. In Europe, telco giants are already moving in. Nokia announced Friday that it had been chosen by Orange and Proximus to help build 5G networks in Belgium after the local carriers were pressured to drop the Chinese firm. The deal is of particular significance given Belgium’s role as the home of European Union’s executive and parliament, and NATO.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidje...-us-sanctions/

The geopolitical trajectory of the Chinese Politburo is more likely to be determined by the success or failure of its own bellicosity than it is by a firm’s market share of tech hardware. Presumed internal decay and decline in the US may be conducive to that success, but it comes down to whether or not the Politburo can maintain the image of impending global supremacy it sells to the domestic population. If the past is any indication, the propensity to deliver on that image may ultimately depend on how the US chooses to respond.

Beijing has been making a show of hostility toward Taiwan. Last week China released footage of “real combat” it conducted last month in Taiwanese airspace. A Chinese invasion would present the greatest threat to global peace in a generation. The U.S. would confront an agonizing dilemma: risk an armed clash between two nuclear superpowers or abandon a free people to communist tyranny. But there’s an alternative—deter the threat by committing to oppose it, by force if necessary.

Deterrence rests on a paradox: The best way to prevent war is to threaten war. The history of the 20th century illustrates what successful deterrence can accomplish. Deterrence enabled West Berlin to survive as a free city despite a political status even more ambiguous than Taiwan’s and a truly indefensible military position. Cold War history also illustrates a corollary: A failure of resolve can invite catastrophe. The Korean War was preventable if the U.S. had made clear beforehand that it would forcefully oppose North Korean aggression.

With the additional reassurance from Soviet intelligence that the “prevailing mood” in the U.S. was “not to interfere,” Stalin unleashed Kim Il-Sung on South Korea and started a horrible war.

Stalin’s spies weren’t wrong in their assessment of the American “mood.” Before the invasion, U.S. political and military leaders didn’t want to defend South Korea and considered an invasion unlikely. But a surprise attack by seven well-equipped North Korean divisions advancing rapidly down the peninsula changed both the strategic and political calculus.

We can’t know how Mr. Xi would react to a credible red line (or to the failure to draw one). Historical analogies are always imprecise; the Korean scenario was complex, and Taiwan’s situation differs from both Korea and Berlin. And there’s no denying that such an approach entails significant risks. But continued ambiguity in the face of Mr. Xi’s escalating rhetoric and provocative movements by his armed forces in the Taiwan Strait presents the greater risk of a confrontation as dangerous as the Cuban Missile Crisis. That leaves us with the credible threat of military force as the best hope of avoiding war.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-kor...an-11602628554

[Exarch]

However the 5G “race” turns out, it’s fairly simplistic to track it as a barometer of Sino-US geopolitical competition. 5G provides many comparative benefits for related hardware and infrastructure, but consumers wouldn’t necessarily see the cumulative benefits of this advancement until it’s throughly built out and becomes the norm. And by then, does anyone suppose international relations will be riding on how that developed? I don’t, given there are any number of other factors that are already progressing on a much more visible and incendiary track.

As it relates to decline of this or that civilization, the connection becomes even more abstract. For one thing, the pioneers of 5G tech werenÂ’t Chinese nor American, but Korean. ThatÂ’s the thing about tiny countries. Always a bridesmaid. From last year:

The Chinese were the first to discover gunpowder, rockets and paper but the european powers were the ones to really give us machine guns and the Saturn V. You are correct however that the ones that are able to utilise new inventions on a mass scale-which the chines are masters at- will be the ones to own the future.

And as it is, the west led by the Anglo Five Eyes have led the west into ruin and debauchery, they have betrayed their own ideals of free market capitalism and resorted to state sanctioned chicanery and mafia tactics to try to steal patents and inventions from those that worked hard for these developments and inventions of human progress.

Factors like this in the practical application and use of 5G tech is why the “first past the post” concept that hearkens back to space race dynamics isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Basically, being the first on the moon doesn’t mean much unless you can generate a habitable environment there. Similarly, serving as the Chinese mascot early on in the tech war meant Huawei faced the brunt of related US sanctions and also got committed and high profile backing from the Politburo and patriotic Chinese consumers. All the same, the company is dealing with domestic sales competition from Xiaomi, Oppo and Vivo, as well as internationally from Samsung and European firms. Unless Huawei can manage to pitch its alternative to Google/Android successfully, it will prove more of a sacred cow than the global infrastructure security threat suggested as predicted by many in the USG.

That day could be coming sooner than you think, with the HarmonyOS and the suite of Huawei apps. Consider this, China's 1.4 bin strong market outnumbers whatever the Five Eyes have even in their captive joint western markets in europe. At best white westerners non anglo and anglo number 900mln, a far car cry short of China's population and that's not counting China's markets in the BRI nations and soon to be RCEP.

What Trump's trade war has done is set the stage for google, apple, etc to no longer become globally competitive companies.

The geopolitical trajectory of the Chinese Politburo is more likely to be determined by the success or failure of its own bellicosity than it is by a firmÂ’s market share of tech hardware. Presumed internal decay and decline in the US may be conducive to that success, but it comes down to whether or not the Politburo can maintain the image of impending global supremacy it sells to the domestic population. If the past is any indication, the propensity to deliver on that image may ultimately depend on how the US chooses to respond.

We're in danger of going off topic but China's forte is its leadership understands the need to be flexible and are incredibly receptive to the needs of the citizenry hence why the CCP enjoys the highest approval rating out of the entire globe, especially in light of the COVID-19 pandemic.

[antaeus]

I'm not entirely certain that measuring of each other's members is addressing the question at hand... whether reflection is a symptom of decline, and specifically whether this is the case in "Western Civilisation"

[Muizer]

@Muizer

I still feel you can't include the Greeks since out side of the most vague ties of language and really basic culture thay do not fit any piece of the model. I mean honestly I think maybe only Rome hangs on the scaffold but the fact is even than 4 fails. Although I would admit that really depends on where you put the supposed golden apex.

As a descriptive model it could be made to work somewhat, but that would require acknowledging that the great civilizations went through multiple cycles. The (IMHO mythical) 'awakening' of nations needs to be substituted with a succession of 're-births': periods where civilizations ended up reinventing themselves in order to survive. Of course that means acknowledging the fact that many of the people ironically revered by nationalist types for rising to such occasions were in fact great destroyers of tradition.

[conon394]

nor the DF-41 is indicative of the massive decline in western tech supremacy.

Wow look its a solid fuel ICBM with MIRV capability. Idunno where I seen that oh wait... I think I know

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UGM-133_Trident_II

Since 1990.

or the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper

since 1986 (removed due to arms control treaty).

So the answer to

nor the DF-41

China is late to the party.

The fact that western white anglos couldn't come up with 5G innovation

More of ideology problem. Had the US protected its markets and subsidized Lucent and Nortel to level of loans Huawei got from the Chinese government back in the 90s when they made some poor market choices they likely still around. Also seeing as Nortel was heavily hacked by the Chinese seems stealing is thing for China as well.

Also realize the current Russian R-36 is superior to the Df-41

In fact a case can be made that much of America's innovations and sci/tech R&D from the late 20th-early 21st century came from Chinese Americans rather than from aryan western white americans

Wow it can be I sure you shower me with some hard data on the ideal or

most fo whom now want to become OnlyFans models and Youtubers rather than astronauts and scientists.

On this one as well