Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

[Beorn]

To be more precise, these were the demographics of the area "Artsakh" claims and controls, not of the NG itself. As has been written multiple times here, within the Nagorno Karabakh autonomous oblast itself the population distribution was ~76% Armenians, ~23% Azeris according to the same 1989 source .

[Cookiegod]

Normally I'd go ahead and ask how it came to be that the Armenians had to contend with the mountaineous highlands while the Azeris came to occupy the more fertile lowlands around it. We know the answer turkonationalists will give: Magic.

Anyway, Hadrut has fallen, and that means Fazuli will fall next. Hadrut, like the earlier fallen Madaghis, are both in Karabakh proper. Hadrut is completely empty. To the surprise of everyone none of the residents seem to believe in Aliyevs promise of people getting to live peacefully next to each other. So yet another chapter of displacement of the Armenians is in full swing.

Both sides, and Azerbaijan in particular, have quite a good discipline with regards to social media, making it rather hard to follow the conflict the way we're used to from Syria. Nevertheless, that discipline failed yesterday.

In the spoiler at the end I put a link where you can see the execution of Armenians. I do not recommend clicking the link, but for documentary purposes it's relevant, given that we know that it'll otherwise be flatly denied. Given how excited they were with other footage of people dying, they'll probably enjoy this one too. But for normal people this shouldn't be enjoyable.
It should be noted, that those two were taken captive north of the town, but executed at the southern end of it. You can see the footage of them being taken captive here (not graphic, though they're already not being treated that nice already). Another interesting aspect of that footage is that it was spread very enthusiastically through the Azeri networks, but then, once the execution went viral as well, they switched their narrative and declared both an Armenian fake. It can't be. Not only, because in the execution video one can clearly hear a Turkic speaking man giving the commands, but also because the Armenians would not have been able to take the execution video at that place for several days now, as the southern edge of the city was under Azerbaijani fire control for days. Geolocation of both the capture video and the execution video can be seen in this image.

The victims are not executed with single shots, but rather we see entire magazines emptied into them. Given how unresponsive they are in their last moments, with one of them not even being able to sit upright, you can guess they were likely tortured. They were fine when taken captive, even though one of them was quite old.


Anyway, here's the spoiler with the link. And again: It's not pretty.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://twitter.com/CiyagerRojava/st...20021939400704

[PointOfViewGun]

For those that choose not to watch the video Cookiegod posted, it contains no blood whatsoever. Not one drop. It was called out for being staged.



Going on the settlers point, here is an interesting take from the Wall Street Journal Opinion section:

A Selective Opponent of ‘Settlers’

The settlements Ms. Whitson supports are in Nagorno-Karabakh, an area that was within the borders of post-Soviet Azerbaijan until 1994, when Armenia occupied the region after a protracted war. Since then, the Armenian leadership in Yerevan has actively encouraged the movement of settlers into the area. Many Armenians regard Karabakh as their historic homeland. But the United Nations, international courts and the U.S. all consider it occupied Azeri territory.

This explanation is at odds with HRW’s approach to Israel, where the group calls for boycotts of entire companies—including unrelated divisions—because some of their work is in settlements. It is also at odds with the record: Ms. Whitson’s fundraising appeals for pro-settlement groups are in no way limited to educational issues. She has celebrated the work of the Armenian General Benevolent Union, which supports new settlement construction to encourage “young families to set down their roots.” She specifically praised the group for helping Syrian Armenians who have “resettled in Armenia”; many or most such refugees have been resettled in the occupied territory.

What's so special about Armenian settlements?

[Exarch]

i dare say this conflict has now heralded the irrelevance of the tank in modern warfare; infantry equipped with RPGs and drones can now take out tanks and APCs. This is an incredible turn of events.

[Cookiegod]

For those that choose not to watch the video Cookiegod posted, it contains no blood whatsoever. Not one drop. It was called out for being staged.

Cool special effects I guess with all the dust flying. Except they failed to account for video gamers who think the blood just flies out immediately everywhere. Also props for staging it in an area that Azerbaijan itself claims to have controlled for days.
For so many reasons quite the achievement, to not say, impossible. Never mind that the capture vid spread in Azerbaijani networks first.

i dare say this conflict has now heralded the irrelevance of the tank in modern warfare; infantry equipped with RPGs and drones can now take out tanks and APCs. This is an incredible turn of events.

Tanks aren't dead yet, and they have been vulnerable for quite some time. However, you're right in that the conflict has great implications for the sensor-saturated battlefield between regular armies, and military experts across the world have drawn some interesting conclusions.
Here's a good one from the UK.

[PointOfViewGun]

Cool special effects I guess with all the dust flying. Except they failed to account for video gamers who think the blood just flies out immediately everywhere. Also props for staging it in an area that Azerbaijan itself claims to have controlled for days.
For so many reasons quite the achievement, to not say, impossible. Never mind that the capture vid spread in Azerbaijani networks first.

It doesn't really have anything to do with video gamers to expect to see blood when someone is shot. Yes, dust is flying, including from the bodies. Neither video has any context information indicating when they were taking so it's pointless to claim they were taken in a place Azerbaijan claimed to have captured. However, its interesting that you chose to share that and not the fact that last night Armenians targeted Ganja city again killing a lot of civilians.

Nagorno-Karabakh conflict: Several dead in missile strikes on Azerbaijani cities

An Armenian missile strike leveled several residential homes in Azerbaijan's second city of Ganja on Saturday, Azeri officials said, in the latest escalation in the conflict over the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh.
The Prosecutor General's office said two shells hit apartment buildings, killing 12 civilians and wounding more than 40 others.
The missile struck around 3 a.m. local time on Saturday (2100 UTC/GMT Friday). A second missile hit another part of Ganja and a third reached the strategically-placed city of Mingecevir nearby.

[sumskilz]

Going on the settlers point, here is an interesting take from the Wall Street Journal Opinion section:

A Selective Opponent of ‘Settlers’

The settlements Ms. Whitson supports are in Nagorno-Karabakh, an area that was within the borders of post-Soviet Azerbaijan until 1994, when Armenia occupied the region after a protracted war. Since then, the Armenian leadership in Yerevan has actively encouraged the movement of settlers into the area. Many Armenians regard Karabakh as their historic homeland. But the United Nations, international courts and the U.S. all consider it occupied Azeri territory.

This explanation is at odds with HRW’s approach to Israel, where the group calls for boycotts of entire companies—including unrelated divisions—because some of their work is in settlements. It is also at odds with the record: Ms. Whitson’s fundraising appeals for pro-settlement groups are in no way limited to educational issues. She has celebrated the work of the Armenian General Benevolent Union, which supports new settlement construction to encourage “young families to set down their

What's so special about Armenian settlements?

It's fair a point, such blatant hypocrisy would be like criticizing Armenian settlement in Nagorno-Karabakh while condoning Turkish settlement in northern Cyprus.

[Cookiegod]

It doesn't really have anything to do with video gamers to expect to see blood when someone is shot. Yes, dust is flying, including from the bodies. Neither video has any context information indicating when they were taking so it's pointless to claim they were taken in a place Azerbaijan claimed to have captured.

So we're back to pretending the Armenians can predict the future, knowing which attack route Azerbaijan would take and deciding to stage a false flag there. Mhm.

However, its interesting that you chose to share that and not the fact that last night Armenians targeted Ganja city again killing a lot of civilians.

Nice transition to your whataboutism. To answer your question: I do not mention Ganja for the same reason I do not mention Stepanakert. Bombing civilians is a crime, and I do not condone it. But both sides are doing it, so there's no argument to be made either way in that regard. But whereas you selectively choose one and ignore the other, whilst bizarrely accusing me of ignoring stuff, I do not imply that the worth of human lives on either side have more worth. Which again, you do by considering only one worth talking about. If you deem civilian bombing a no-go, we'd very much agree, but at the very least be consistent about it.

It's fair a point, such blatant hypocrisy would be like criticizing Armenian settlement in Nagorno-Karabakh while condoning Turkish settlement in northern Cyprus.

Oh snap.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's fair a point, such blatant hypocrisy would be like criticizing Armenian settlement in Nagorno-Karabakh while condoning Turkish settlement in northern Cyprus.

Except no one really condone Turkish settlement in Northern Cyprus. Demographic make up of the island have not changed much since 1960s. Moving on...

So we're back to pretending the Armenians can predict the future, knowing which attack route Azerbaijan would take and deciding to stage a false flag there. Mhm.

Not really rocket science. Many forgeries have circulated the web since day one of the conflict.

Nice transition to your whataboutism. To answer your question: I do not mention Ganja for the same reason I do not mention Stepanakert. Bombing civilians is a crime, and I do not condone it. But both sides are doing it, so there's no argument to be made either way in that regard. But whereas you selectively choose one and ignore the other, whilst bizarrely accusing me of ignoring stuff, I do not imply that the worth of human lives on either side have more worth. Which again, you do by considering only one worth talking about. If you deem civilian bombing a no-go, we'd very much agree, but at the very least be consistent about it.

I haven't seen the same happening in Stepanakert. We have only seen a few isolated incidents of mortar shells falling off course, not entire city blocks leveled with ballistic missiles like we have seen in Ganja. Stepanakert is know to be evacuated as well.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Except no one really condone Turkish settlement in Northern Cyprus. Demographic make up of the island have not changed much since 1960s. Moving on...

I'm pretty sure it changed pretty drastically in 1974, which as far as I'm aware was after the 1960's. Then again I wasn't alive yet so maybe time worked differently.

I haven't seen the same happening in Stepanakert. We have only seen a few isolated incidents of mortar shells falling off course, not entire city blocks leveled with ballistic missiles like we have seen in Ganja. Stepanakert is know to be evacuated as well.

I've shown you cluster munitions being used on Stepanakert. You know, something completely illegal.

[Vanoi]

i dare say this conflict has now heralded the irrelevance of the tank in modern warfare; infantry equipped with RPGs and drones can now take out tanks and APCs. This is an incredible turn of events.

Armenians just don't have any reliable anti-drone defenses. Tanks need APS to deal with infantry.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm pretty sure it changed pretty drastically in 1974, which as far as I'm aware was after the 1960's. Then again I wasn't alive yet so maybe time worked differently.

It didn't but that's the topic of an other thread.

I've shown you cluster munitions being used on Stepanakert. You know, something completely illegal.

One incident, yes. It is illegal. Both Armenia and Azerbaijan should destroy the cluster munition that they've inherited from Soviet Russia.

[Cookiegod]

Except no one really condone Turkish settlement in Northern Cyprus. Demographic make up of the island have not changed much since 1960s. Moving on...

oh ffs. Why is it that I'm not surprised you're denying the displacement of 200000 ethnic Greek Cypriots from the north, or the fact that about half the population in the illegally occupied north are estimated to be immigrants from the Turkish mainland since after the takeover?

Not really rocket science. Many forgeries have circulated the web since day one of the conflict.

For the reasons outlined before it's highly unlikely that this is a forgery.

I haven't seen the same happening in Stepanakert. We have only seen a few isolated incidents of mortar shells falling off course, not entire city blocks leveled with ballistic missiles like we have seen in Ganja. Stepanakert is know to be evacuated as well.

The previous bombardments at least (did not check for the latest one) weren't done with ballistic rockets either, but with those smaller ones that are fired Katyusha style from trucks. The bombardment of Stepanakert wasn't done with mortars either, but again with the very same weapon systems. You cannot claim all those attacks to have been accidents, since e.g. the historic church with journalists in it was double tapped.
There are military objects close to both Azeri cities that were hit, so the same argument with rockets falling short applies (and is likely to be the case). You cannot pronounce one of them an accident and the other having been done on purpose if you have nothing to back either up. If you do not know, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. And since you insisted on that this is to be a major talking point, you cannot seriously pretend that it's Armenia doing most of the bombing. It's not.

[PointOfViewGun]

oh ffs. Why is it that I'm not surprised you're denying the displacement of 200000 ethnic Greek Cypriots from the north, or the fact that about half the population in the illegally occupied north are estimated to be immigrants from the Turkish mainland since after the takeover?

Well, I'm not surprised that you're making stuff up about what I argued. I did not comment on population displacement on Cyprus. For the rest, you can open up a thread to discuss that issue.

The previous bombardments at least (did not check for the latest one) weren't done with ballistic rockets either, but with those smaller ones that are fired Katyusha style from trucks. The bombardment of Stepanakert wasn't done with mortars either, but again with the very same weapon systems. You cannot claim all those attacks to have been accidents, since e.g. the historic church with journalists in it was double tapped.

There are military objects close to both Azeri cities that were hit, so the same argument with rockets falling short applies (and is likely to be the case). You cannot pronounce one of them an accident and the other having been done on purpose if you have nothing to back either up. If you do not know, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. And since you insisted on that this is to be a major talking point, you cannot seriously pretend that it's Armenia doing most of the bombing. It's not.

In certain cases, sure, the same standards apply, which is why I don't call out every single strike. Shelling done by Armenia on border regions bound to create accidents. That's why I didn't mention the previous day's strike on an Azerbaijani cemetery that killed 3 civilians. Ones I mentioned were of high caliber or sustained strikes; not just a single or double tap. Again, Stepanakert have been reported to be mostly emptied out, hence, I can't give the same weight on strikes on that city with that of Ganja. The latest response by Azerbaijan to Armenians' strike on Ganja was not to return the strikes in kind but to focus on extensive targeting of the soldiers on the front line trenches. So far, we have seen Azerbaijan shifting to use of more precise targeting while Armenians increased their indiscriminate strikes. So, yeah, even with incidents from both sides, I'm leaning more towards the Azerbaijani side.

[Cookiegod]

Well, I'm not surprised that you're making stuff up about what I argued. I did not comment on population displacement on Cyprus. For the rest, you can open up a thread to discuss that issue.

You had to argue at least one, if not both of those points. Again: About half of the population in Northern Cyprus immigrated from Turkey. Further: If the displacement of the Greeks inside the island is ok, then you have zero case to argue that the internal displacement of the Azeris presents any issue. Never mind that Karabakh at no point occupied nearly half of the territory, nor some of the most populous cities there.

In certain cases, sure, the same standards apply, which is why I don't call out every single strike. Shelling done by Armenia on border regions bound to create accidents. That's why I didn't mention the previous day's strike on an Azerbaijani cemetery that killed 3 civilians. Ones I mentioned were of high caliber or sustained strikes; not just a single or double tap. Again, Stepanakert have been reported to be mostly emptied out, hence, I can't give the same weight on strikes on that city with that of Ganja. The latest response by Azerbaijan to Armenians' strike on Ganja was not to return the strikes in kind but to focus on extensive targeting of the soldiers on the front line trenches. So far, we have seen Azerbaijan shifting to use of more precise targeting while Armenians increased their indiscriminate strikes. So, yeah, even with incidents from both sides, I'm leaning more towards the Azerbaijani side.

And you never wondered how come that many fled the city. Stepanakert is not close to the front line trenches either, at least not much closer than Ganja.

[antaeus]

You guys need to take a step back from your keyboards for a second.

Because you're all arguing from positions that if successful involve either new, or justifying old ethnic cleansing and war crimes.


POV, you seem to be supporting the Azeri position fairly thoroughly...

Rather than getting stuck niggling over points of comparison between countries, or over who has committed the most war crimes, can you tell me what your ideal outcome from this conflict would be?

[Derpy Hooves]

Ideal outcome is peacekeepers, Artsakh gives back 5 of seven Karabakh regions, while keeping the corridors to Armenia, and gets independence from Azerbaijan. That Azerbaijan has been shelling Stepanakert since the war began in September shows how little he cares for his so called Armenian citizens.

[Exarch]

Idela outcome is Azeris abandon all stolen land and beg forgiveness from every armenian family for a hundred years of pillage and rape

[PointOfViewGun]

POV, you seem to be supporting the Azeri position fairly thoroughly...

Rather than getting stuck niggling over points of comparison between countries, or over who has committed the most war crimes, can you tell me what your ideal outcome from this conflict would be?

I do believe Azerbaijani position is the right one. It's their land that's being occupied after all. The ideal outcome would be for Armenians to withdraw from areas outside of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast borders, with fighting ceasing on both sides, and for the status of NKAO to be decided through negotiations.

However, this conflict is beyond what we outline there. On one side, you have Armenia backed by Russia and Iran. Countries like Greece and France are being opportunist to back Armenia up as well to piss off Turkey. On the other hand, you have Azerbaijan backed by Turkey and Israel. There are energy corridor implications that Russia has a keen interest in disrupting. Then there is the Iranian angle as Iran has very large Azerbaijani community in Iran. So, I doubt Armenians could simply retreat. Their backers wouldn't allow them.

[antaeus]

I do believe Azerbaijani position is the right one. It's their land that's being occupied after all. The ideal outcome would be for Armenians to withdraw from areas outside of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast borders, with fighting ceasing on both sides, and for the status of NKAO to be decided through negotiations.

So can I take from this you're an advocate of ethnic cleansing then? I mean, that's literally what you're suggesting. Albeit in response to a previous bout of ethnic cleansing.

Edit: Or are you suggesting the Armenians who live in the areas which you suggest should change hands would be perfectly safe to remain in their homes?

And what of NKAO's status. Is "decided through negotiation" a veiled way of saying you'd also prefer ethnic cleansing there too? I imagine the hundreds of thousands of residents don't really see any solution that Azerbaijan would consider acceptable at this point.

In case you didn't realise, I am going to keep hammering you with "ethnic cleansing". Because you haven't yet offered anything in this thread other than justification for it.