Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

[swabian]

what kind of support? financial? or directly material with tanks guns and know-how?

[Tureuki]

Yes, it does have risks for the Armenian side to do that, which is why they don't. Why would Armenia willingly put peoples' lives at risk? That's not a viable solution. First of all, the gunfire locators and observers must be put in place at the line of contact (which Armenia agrees with and Azerbaijan doesn't want). That is the most important thing right now that's needed to deter violence. Lives are on the line - Armenian and Azeri lives. War is NOT a viable solution.

Armenia puts lives at risk exactly by its current stance. Again i see no other viable suggestion, you want to deter violence, you wanna put gunfire locators in order to prevent Azerbaijan from being the first one to pull the trigger, how are these in anyway an ultimate solution? These are one sided attempts to guarantee security of Armenians, i believe the Armenian idea of a solution is that Azerbaijan should just suck it up and stay away.

[Nebaki]

what kind of support? financial? or directly material with tanks guns and know-how?

In case of Azerbaijan Military Cooperation consists of modern training and technical support aswell probably know how to use some Weapon System for example from Israel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barak_8

For Turkey Azerbaijan is like Austria for Germany but without an existed hostility like Austria–Prussia rivalry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerba...ratic_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerba...rkey_relations

In case of Armenia we know that Moscow is educating their high ranking personel aswell supplying them with Weapon Systems&Co. Russia also having a Military Base in Armenia and now we even got Iranian Militias there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia..._Military_Base

[Drtad]

Armenia puts lives at risk exactly by its current stance. Again i see no other viable suggestion, you want to deter violence, you wanna put gunfire locators in order to prevent Azerbaijan from being the first one to pull the trigger, how are these in anyway an ultimate solution? These are one sided attempts to guarantee security of Armenians, i believe the Armenian idea of a solution is that Azerbaijan should just suck it up and stay away.

The gunfire locators are not an ultimate solution but they will ensure that the solution is found peacefully, which is the most important thing in this situation. I think ensuring that there is no violence is not a "one-sided attempt to guarantee security of Armenians" as it saves countless Azeri (and Lezgi, Avar, Talyshi, Yezidi) lives as well. Insinuating that ensuring a peaceful border is "one-sided" is warmongering.

[Tureuki]

It only works when there is an undergoing real solution so you make sure the tension is under conrol till it's achieved, i don't see such a possibility or even a suggestion regarding it.

I'm not warmongering, on the contrary i feel pity for Armenia, I always did, i'm more empathetic towards Armenia then i will ever be towards unconditional racist compatriots of mine, they take the highest toll for sure, a few wrong turns taken in near history can ruin entire generations. I hope somehow this gets solved and Turks and Armenians restart a healthy relationship, tho it seems quite unlikely in foreseeable future.

[Drtad]

It only works when there is an undergoing real solution so you make sure the tension is under conrol till it's achieved, i don't see such a possibility or even a suggestion regarding it.

Armenia's official position since the revolution is that any agreement should be acceptable for the people of Armenia, the people of NK, and the people of Azerbaijan (Pashinyan explicitly added that last part, that the agreement must be ok for the people of Azerbaijan as well, he even noted this again in a BBC interview today). Azerbaijan only wants a solution that is ok for the people of Azerbaijan without taking into account the demands of the people of NK at all, which is unacceptable and shows how much they value the lives of the people living there. Azerbaijan has not placed any value in the lives of the Armenians living in NK (or in Baku, or Sumgait, etc.) for a long while now, which is the whole reason for this conflict. And certainly their actions in the past few days have not made anyone feel safe about any transfer of territory to Azerbaijan.

I'm not warmongering, on the contrary i feel pity for Armenia, I always did, i'm more empathetic towards Armenia then i will ever be towards unconditional racist compatriots of mine, they take the highest toll for sure, a few wrong turns taken in near history can ruin entire generations. I hope somehow this gets solved and Turks and Armenians restart a healthy relationship, tho it seems quite unlikely in foreseeable future.

If someone is against the placement of something like gunfire locators to make sure innocent people, conscripts, or civilians on both sides are not killed needlessly, then that is a warmongering position. Nobody should die, war is not a viable solution for this issue.

[Nebaki]

It looks like that Armenian Troops are lacking of any kind of counter-air defence:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Russia will probably intervene soon.

[ioannis76]

what kind of support? financial? or directly material with tanks guns and know-how?

Jihadists, as well.
https://caucasus.liveuamap.com/en/20...aku-azerbaijan
A mercenary army of jihadists moved by Turkey from area to area, where they wreak havoc even in the ranks of the faction they are supposed to support by means of looting and plundering whatever they can get their hands on. Payed for by Quatar. And the West accepts this, and even gives this country money, instead of strangulating its already crumbling economy by sanctions.

[B. W.]

It looks like that Armenian Troops are lacking of any kind of counter-air defence:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Russia will probably intervene soon.

It's possible for an infantry company to take down low flying bombers...but not the way they're doing it. They need some training.

[Gaius Baltar]

@Zandt: Pfff... sorry. I don't think anybody knows, not even they themselves. edit: knowing this kind of stuff is of course an absolute luxury. This is tribal warfare, more or less.

I did a little research on my own...thought I would start with tanks:

Armenia - 20 T-80, 500 T-72

Azerbaijan - 100 T-90, 470 T-72

Artillery:

Armenia - 293

Azerbaijan - 740

Still looking at numbers for fighter aircraft, etc.

Overall looks like Azerbaijan has a big material advantage. However, the breakaway area of NK apparently has its own military hardware, unless they are counting those as belonging to Armenia (not sure). In any case, they would add another 300+ tanks to the equation.

[Vardano]

Have some shame buddy

https://twitter.com/abo33amsha/statu...93576741924864

Turkish F-16s did not shoot down any Armenian aircraft, Armenia relentlessly tries to convince the world that Turkey is directly involved in order to receive an international intervention, yeah sounds like they are sure that they can repel the Azerbaijanis.

I always can admit if something is fake. But that was the only thing which I agree from everything I have posted.

In terms of F16, information comes from ministry of defense. Armenia does not need to convince anyone in the regards of Turkey, both Erdogan and Cavusoglu talked about direct military support to a brother nation.

@Zandt: Pfff... sorry. I don't think anybody knows, not even they themselves. edit: knowing this kind of stuff is of course an absolute luxury.

What the word "luxury" means in this context?

This article is written by non-resident expert at Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung and contributor at Shephard Media and Janes. You can just use google translate to read, scroll down in the article to find spreadsheet which gives total overview of military power of both sides.

https://iz.ru/1066374/leonid-nersisi...64HzeLJs2k_pgc

[alhoon]

Please remember that the topic of this thread is not about infantry versus passenger planes.

[Vardano]

I wanted to add more things about Armenia Russia relations because it is essential to understand how complex this conflict is.
Ex-president of Armenia Robert Kocharyan was arrested with accusation of "overthrowing the constitutional order" but previous chief of high court released him. Just couple of weeks ago new three judges were approved as judges of the Constitutional Court of Armenia. Kocharyan was charged with serious crimes, he is pretty much hated person in the country. And yesterday he announces that he goes to Artsakh to provide help.
Robert Kocharyan is a friend of Putin, President of Russia even publicly congratulates him on his birthday, even when Kocharyan was in jail, Putin starts every letter to him like "Dear friend...". You can have idea of what it means when Russian TV channels airing the fact of Putin congratulating his friend Kocharyan. In short, Pashinyan made huge anti corruption "cleaning" and many pro Russian politics, high rank officials (or agents) ran away to Russia with crimes been charged against them.

Main Armenian TV channel even dared to show some footage with Navalniy couple of month ago. Oof.

Now something which is really sad. Couple of propogandists from Russian channels say on their social networks "Putin told Pashinyan to don't touch Kocharyan, he ignored it", "Armenia opened criminal case against the chairman of the CSTO Khachaturov when they were asked not to do so by Russia and they still did it". Mister Korothcenko adds "Armenia needs new prime minister" and "Go and call to Soros now".
So... Putin never forgets and never forgives. Azeri attack is perfect chance to show Armenia its place without Russia. Just like 100 years ago, Armenia fights against Azerbaijan, Turkey and Bolsheviks (they still don't want to bury Lenin). Just this morning Armenia has rejected the idea to send Russian military peacekeepers to Artsakh.

If Turkey not gonna interfere more directly, Azerbaijan not gonna get anything from this war and it is really bad for dictator Aliev as people will see him as loser who had another fiasco. What is more concerning, this would mean Russia can't put Armenia in is place either and something else might follow up.

[Love Mountain]

It's a controlled conflict, always has been. Russia is Armenia's only "friend", and if Armenia thinks they can do anything about this conflict without Russia, they'll be in for a rude awakening imo. Armenia has a slight military edge, in terms of position, but the long game is impossible without Russian support.

[Vardano]

Love Mountain, I agree with what you said but Azeri as attacking side taking big losses, they can't attack with such force for too long.

Another piece of Armenian propaganda.
It is fantastic time for Libyan tourists to visit Azerbaijan, is not it?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Love Mountain]

Wow! What an amazing argument to justify use of forged material...

What an odd thing to be upset about.

It is far fetched. Just because relations between Armenia and Turkey is bad it doesn't mean Turkey can somehow materialize trucks full of Syrian mercenaries that Azeris don't need in Azerbaijan.

1. Are you saying that Turkey is incapable of getting mercenaries to fight for Azerbaijan in a potential conflict against Armenia?
2. Just because Azerbaijan doesn't "need" whatever, doesn't mean they're going to say no.

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh really?
No need to lie. Go couple of pages back and check Times, Guardian, Reuters articles I posted which reporting of Turkey transferring terrorists from Syria to Azerbaijan.
The only post was photoshopped, I admitted it was fake and my mistake, and now you trying to say I'm claiming something only with it lol. In a fact I linked a different sources, I just posted info of Libyan plane arriving to Baku when Azerbaijan officially closed almost all flights. Try your best, tell us, what could it be bringing? Does Libya has anything to do with Turkey recently?

Oh, but you are lying. No doubt about that. Your admittance of using fake photo was hardly an admittance. It's a shame you resort to such tactics. All the article you posted refer to an obscure source of random Syrians. It's a testament to the lack of quality in journalism those news sources produce when it comes to things about Turkey. What's funny though is that the articles you linked report from Syria but the mercenaries are presumably coming from Libya. That plane could be bringing anything but Syrian mercenaries since it doesn't make any sense at all to have any mercenaries in Azerbaijan against Armenia. You are, just like Armenia of course, banking on any anti-Turkish sentiment you can find out there. So, you need these bits of claims. I understand that.

What an odd thing to be upset about.

Not at all. Its concerning that people do not care about someone using fake material to advance propaganda. Whats odd is you taking issue with that.

1. Are you saying that Turkey is incapable of getting mercenaries to fight for Azerbaijan in a potential conflict against Armenia?
2. Just because Azerbaijan doesn't "need" whatever, doesn't mean they're going to say no.

It's quite hard and unnecessary to transport rotting pickup trucks from Syria or Libya to Azerbaijan since Turkey shares no border with mainland Azerbaijan. They'd have to pass through Iran or Georgia. Those people in the trucks are not speaking Turkish that Azeris could understand. Azerbaijan wouldn't want Arab speaking men among its ranks that they can't communicate with. Muslims don't have some kind of hive mind that can convey messages among each other. So, yeah, they would say no. Not in a situation they don't need them desperately, and they don't.

[Love Mountain]

Oh, but you are lying. No doubt about that. Your admittance of using fake photo was hardly an admittance. It's a shame you resort to such tactics. All the article you posted refer to an obscure source of random Syrians. It's a testament to the lack of quality in journalism those news sources produce when it comes to things about Turkey. What's funny though is that the articles you linked report from Syria but the mercenaries are presumably coming from Libya. That plane could be bringing anything but Syrian mercenaries since it doesn't make any sense at all to have any mercenaries in Azerbaijan against Armenia. You are, just like Armenia of course, banking on any anti-Turkish sentiment you can find out there. So, you need these bits of claims. I understand that.

Not at all. Its concerning that people do not care about someone using fake material to advance propaganda. Whats odd is you taking issue with that.

You're really hung up over a photo.

It's quite hard and unnecessary to transport rotting pickup trucks from Syria or Libya to Azerbaijan since Turkey shares no border with mainland Azerbaijan. They'd have to pass through Iran or Georgia. Those people in the trucks are not speaking Turkish that Azeris could understand.

Foreign fighters have been finding their way into Syria for years now. It is neither impossible nor improbable to believe that Turkey would go through the hassle of transporting mercenaries into Nagorno Karabakh.

Azerbaijan wouldn't want Arab speaking men among its ranks that they can't communicate with. Muslims don't have some kind of hive mind that can convey messages among each other. So, yeah, they would say no. Not in a situation they don't need them desperately, and they don't.

Indeed, Muslims aren't a hive mind. Just because there are different languages involves doesn't mean that communication is impossible. And again, this isn't about "need". If Turkey wants to send some fighters in to create chaos and hurt Armenia, they're not going to ask if Armenia "needs" them or not.

[Cyclops]

I feel like the religious and nationalist aspects of state relations get so entangled in the entire wider region of SW Asia.

Is it sensible to ask if Erdogan might provide opportunities for mujahedeen to fight against the Armenians to prove Islamist credentials? What was Turkey's relationship with various explicitly jihadist groups in Syria? In my ignorance I can imagine him competing with the Wahhabist Arab states as "most pure jihadist" or perhaps providing outlets for jihadists who are stymied by the recent rapprochement between the various Arab states and Israel.

I wonder how Israel will behave too: does Netanyahu feel the inertia because of the recent normalisations? I'm sure this isn't Erdogan craftily upsetting Israel by baiting them into the Caucasus...

[Vardano]

Oh, but you are lying. No doubt about that. Your admittance of using fake photo was hardly an admittance. It's a shame you resort to such tactics. All the article you posted refer to an obscure source of random Syrians. It's a testament to the lack of quality in journalism those news sources produce when it comes to things about Turkey. What's funny though is that the articles you linked report from Syria but the mercenaries are presumably coming from Libya. That plane could be bringing anything but Syrian mercenaries since it doesn't make any sense at all to have any mercenaries in Azerbaijan against Armenia. You are, just like Armenia of course, banking on any anti-Turkish sentiment you can find out there. So, you need these bits of claims. I understand that.

It can't be tactics, you know what that word "tactics" mean? And how is admittance is hardly admittance?

Of course I need every bit. It is not like Erdogan or Cavusoglu said they will provide full military support.
Of course Azerbaijan does not need mercs, they need delicious couscous from Libya. That it was delivered.

So Times, Guardian, Reuters are trash stuff, ok. They have no reason at all to assume Turkey has anything to do with terrorists. But when you think of it, Turkey is a country which has ties with terrorism more than any other country. This article is must read.

A Turkish ex-counter terrorism official lays out a laundry list of Erdogan's partnership with Isis.
https://investigativejournal.org/try...pWVr1M8m3lq-JY