Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

[Sir Adrian]

Is there something wrong with bashing Trump? I did not know that criticism of POTUS was such a controversial topic. We've also established that there is evidence of something immoral in ICE facilities, your response if I recall correctly, was that we do not yet know if such heinous practices are employed by every single ICE employees at every single facility. Apparently, that's the standard we have to reach before we're allowed to be upset.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing leadership, it's the hallmark of a functioning democracy, however constructive criticism and trying to make anything bad that happens anywhere in the country about the president are bigly different /*wink*/

If you want to criticize Trump's policies criticize Trump's policies. But blaming the actions of others and the efficiency of ICE solely on him is intellectually wrong.

[Love Mountain]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing leadership, it's the hallmark of a functioning democracy, however constructive criticism and trying to make anything bad that happens anywhere in the country about the president are bigly different /*wink*/

ICE is directly under executive leadership. So insinuating that this is another instance of "Orange Man Bad" is a cop-out, rather than a salient observation of the intent of this thread. Which, by the way, I didn't even make. You can thank the mods for that. I just thought it would be a good example of how callously current government authorities treat people, as evidenced by police brutality discussed in the George Floyd thread, but the mods thought it to be sufficient as a separate topic.

If you want to criticize Trump's policies criticize Trump's policies. But blaming the actions of others and the efficiency of ICE solely on him is intellectually wrong.

Current practices and failures of ICE are directly linked to Trump's policies. I'm not blaming Trump for a single ICE agent beating up a helpless immigrant. I'll go even further and not blame him for systematic abuse and human rights violations throughout ICE facilities. However, Trump's lack of care, refusal to address such complaints, and policies that directly contribute to the current crisis are certainly a large part of the problem. He owns that.

[Sir Adrian]

ICE is run by its own leadership that answers to executive leadership. Moreover the abuses of one employee are the fault of executive leadership. They're exclusively the fault of the employee and any accomplices he might have had.


Current ICE practices have been in place since Bush and Obama, Trump did not change much of anything. Caught immigrants were detained since before ICE even existed, in fact it was Bill Clinton who started the detainment, and Hillary worked to expand it while secretary.

[Love Mountain]

ICE is run by its own leadership that answers to executive leadership. Moreover the abuses of one employee are the fault of executive leadership. They're exclusively the fault of the employee and any accomplices he might have had.

Are you telling me that ICE is not accountable to President Trump?

Current ICE practices have been in place since Bush and Obama, Trump did not change much of anything. Caught immigrants were detained since before ICE even existed, in fact it was Bill Clinton who started the detainment, and Hillary worked to expand it while secretary.

Are you telling me that President Trump has not made any changes to DHS or ICE?

[Sir Adrian]

I'm telling you that detention and the treatment of immigrants have not changed. I don't see what ICE being accountable to the government has to do with anything. Trump is not accountable for everything every government employee does.

[Love Mountain]

I'm telling you that detention and the treatment of immigrants have not changed.

You're going to need a source for that.

I don't see what ICE being accountable to the government has to do with anything. Trump is not accountable for everything every government employee does.

ICE being accountable to government, means that the ultimate responsibility for mishaps and mistreatment in their facilities lays with Donald Trump. Similarly, nobody is blaming the President for every single war crime that a soldier commuted during Iraq, but the President is responsible for on-going hostilities, for allowing war crimes to happen because you know, he did declare war, and for action or lack of action in regards to such issues. For instance, the Abu Ghraib scandal under President Bush. While initially denying that the alleged accusations were even true, Bush eventually apologized and promised to prevent this from happening again.

The on-going crisis in ICE facilities is much wider in scope, in that regard, and coverage dates back to 2018 at the very least. With the current allegations of medical abuse of women, at the hands of a doctor contracted by ICE, this issue warrants attention more than ever. Where is the Presidential Orange? Well he's definitely not apologizing or promising to fix these issues.

[Sir Adrian]

You're going to need a source for that.

You can't prove something that did not happen. You can disprove what I said by showing the changes in detention conditions made by Trump. But there is no "everything stays the same" bill.

ICE being accountable to government, means that the ultimate responsibility for mishaps and mistreatment in their facilities lays with Donald Trump. Similarly, nobody is blaming the President for every single war crime that a soldier commuted during Iraq, but the President is responsible for on-going hostilities, for allowing war crimes to happen because you know, he did declare war, and for action or lack of action in regards to such issues. For instance, the Abu Ghraib scandal under President Bush. While initially denying that the alleged accusations were even true, Bush eventually apologized and promised to prevent this from happening again.

The on-going crisis in ICE facilities is much wider in scope, in that regard, and coverage dates back to 2018 at the very least. With the current allegations of medical abuse of women, at the hands of a doctor contracted by ICE, this issue warrants attention more than ever. Where is the Presidential Orange? Well he's definitely not apologizing or promising to fix these issues.

So basically what you are saying is that Trump has no blame for what that doctor did, which I've been saying all along.

[Love Mountain]

You can't prove something that did not happen.

Nobody is asking you to, but, providing proof that treatment of detained immigrants has stayed largely the same is not "impossible".

You can disprove what I said by showing the changes in detention conditions made by Trump. But there is no "everything stays the same" bill.

By Trump personally? Or is Trump also not responsible for policies instituted by the people he appointed?

So basically what you are saying is that Trump has no blame for what that doctor did, which I've been saying all along.

Where did I say that?

[Love Mountain]

New York Times

‘We Need to Take Away Children,’ No Matter How Young, Justice Dept. Officials Said

WASHINGTON — The five U.S. attorneys along the border with Mexico, including three appointed by President Trump, recoiled in May 2018 against an order to prosecute all undocumented immigrants even if it meant separating children from their parents. They told top Justice Department officials they were “deeply concerned” about the children’s welfare.

But the attorney general at the time, Jeff Sessions, made it clear what Mr. Trump wanted on a conference call later that afternoon, according to a two-year inquiry by the Justice Department’s inspector general into Mr. Trump’s “zero tolerance” family separation policy.

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Over all, Mr. Horowitz concluded in the draft, Mr. Sessions and other senior department officials “were aware that full implementation of the zero-tolerance policy would result in criminal referrals by D.H.S. of adults who enter the country illegally with children and that the prosecution of these family-unit adults would result in children being separated from families.”

Scumbags. Just one of the many reasons nobody should vote Republican this November.

[Aexodus]

So do we put children in the same cells as adults?

[Love Mountain]

So do we put children in the same cells as adults?

I suppose a case could be made for making children's cells smaller, for the sake of efficiency. Or you could pack more of them in per cell.

[Aexodus]

I suppose a case could be made for making children's cells smaller, for the sake of efficiency. Or you could pack more of them in per cell.

Be serious. When parents are detained for illegal entry, something has to be done with the children for a temporary period.

[Love Mountain]

Be serious. When parents are detained for illegal entry, something has to be done with the children for a temporary period.

That depends on whether the parents are a flight risk, or even better, a threat to the community they were living in before. Many immigrants simply wait for their court hearing at home. ICE categorizes people who are nonviolent and noncriminal, they have a classification system based on "threat" level. Additionally, majority of people do not stay at detention centers very long. A timely deportation is fair, my opinions differ, but in regards to current discourse even in liberal circles, a timely deportation or detention of criminal elements, is "fair".

However, low threat detainees, or detainees who are being hold for a long time, or detainees who have families, or detainees who have lived in America for a long time, should not be kept in prison-like conditions. Vast majority of them, could probably be trusted to return or be tracked down. It is a strain on government resources, and it is inhumane, to detain relatively harmless people in prisons. Get them a court date, and let them go. At the very least, treat them like people, instead of criminals.

[Prodromos]

‘In absentia’ rates grossly overstate asylum-seekers’ propensity to skip court

Trump’s Bad Immigration Math - WSJ

Trump administration officials have repeatedly argued against releasing adult asylum seekers from detention on the ground that they’re unlikely to show up in court. “The absentia rates in immigration court are sky high,” Thomas Homan, former acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, told a House hearing July 12. But as a new report from the American Immigration Council shows, the administration is using the wrong measure. In fact, over the past decade, 1.97 million cases have been filed in immigration court for aliens not held in ICE detention. In 1.8 million of those cases, at least one scheduled court hearing has occurred. Among those, nearly 1.5 million showed up to every hearing—an appearance rate of 83%.

Asylum-seeking families are even likelier to appear in court. Of families released from detention from 2001-16, 86% attended every scheduled court hearing. Among families that had lawyers, 97% appeared in court. That makes sense—the only way for them to get the legal protection they need is to show up in court to argue for it.

The government, however, does not report immigrants’ appearance rate. Instead it reports a related figure called the “in absentia rate”—the percentage of “completed” cases closed each year because the person missed court. Because the penalty for missing court is an automatic deportation order, these cases are completed rapidly. As a result, that figure overemphasizes rapid deportations for missing court and leaves out the much larger number of cases that remain pending as the immigrant diligently appears for every hearing.

To simplify, imagine 10 people are scheduled to appear in court one day and nine show up. The judge issues a deportation order for the person who missed court, then deals with the remaining cases, finishing one and ordering the other eight to return for another hearing. The appearance rate for that day is 90%. The in absentia rate is a mere 50%—one deportation order divided by two completed cases.

The in absentia rate is further flawed because the denominator varies based on factors unrelated to whether asylum seekers appear or not. If the number of completed cases declines in a given year, the in absentia rate increases even if the appearance rate remains constant or improves slightly.

Some asylum seekers fail to show up through no fault of their own, as demonstrated by a 2018 study by the Urban Justice Center and the Catholic Legal Immigration Network. It examined families ordered deported for missing court and found that in a significant number of cases, government error was to blame. One family received two letters on the same day—one notifying them of a court date that had already passed, the other a deportation order for missing it.

Given that the vast majority of asylum seekers do appear for court, the government should focus on ensuring that those seeking to follow the rules have a full opportunity to do so. A good start would be to restore the Family Case Management Program, established in 2016 and ended in 2017, which achieved a 95% compliance rate by helping families navigate the court process and building stability in their lives during proceedings. Keeping a family of two in this program cost taxpayers $38 a day, vs. $592 for detention. Even modest efforts like sending text messages before hearings could help people.

It makes no sense to lock people up who only want to abide by the law. The administration should focus instead on helping them do so.

[LWC]

Do we even know they are biological parents or legal guardians of those children to begin with? There are many documented cases of illegal aliens dragging along a child as a ticket to cross into over sovereign territory or use them as sex slaves during the journey.

Liberal and socialist commentators here, are you willing to care for those illegal alien minors, if not why should I in the form of my taxes? I didn't invite them over. However, I am happy to contribute to their one-way ticket back to their homes, instead of keeping them here in this terrible systemically racist country of ours.

[Gaidin]

Liberal and socialist commentators here, are you willing to care for those illegal alien minors, if not why should I in the form of my taxes? I didn't invite them over. However, I am happy to contribute to their one-way ticket back to their homes, instead of keeping them here in this terrible systemically racist country of ours.

Conservative commentator, are you willing to have your weather reports each evening and your hurricane trackers each summer and fall? If so, be ready to shell out your taxes, because that's data provided for by NOAA weather satellites number crunched by NOAA super computers paid for by taxes. There's a lot of programs that you don't know about that just involve taking care of people.

We could go into the small business low interest loans of the Department of Agriculture that freak people out when they find out its signed by the government?

But then...you know, most people want to feed and clothe children in a non-fascist manner. So, there's that.

[LWC]

Taking care of our citizens yes, but not illegals. Most people want to feed and clothe their own children and fellow humans, not forced into paying for illegals who imposed themselves onto us, illegals who broke our laws and decided to jump the lines of law abiding immigrants. Fascist? Only fascist who locked those illegal aliens in cages with tinfoil blankets are Hussein and ol' sniffer Joey. Any problem with government, the bloated bureaucracy, were contributed by your democrat politicians.

[Gaidin]

Taking care of our citizens yes, but not illegals.

Throw out predictions of hurricanes.

Because. Calculations of hurricanes and handing them to the public helps the illegals. So, lets cancel NOAA right?

Hey. By your wording. Lets cancel all of our interstates. Because illegals use them. I'm not sure you think this through.

Sit down. Think. Come back in twenty four hours.

[Exarch]

Mexico is investigating the regime of eugenics at the US border:

ICE whistleblower: Mexico investigating US immigrant 'sterilisations'

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-54265571

[Heathen Hammer]

The reason why children are separated is because their parents crossed the border illegally. Their parents broke the law.
So it makes sense to separate them, until they can figure out whether they are just welfare migrants or... something much worse. Like you know, human traffickers, members of drug cartels, etc. So all this virtue signalling doesn't do much other then actually endanger those children, since if such restrictions are lifted, it would only make job easier for above-mentioned criminal groups.
I'm honestly surprised it even has to be explained, yet here we are.