Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Wow that’s alot of cope just to say nothing at all. The only strawman here is yours, and citing news stories alleging individual cases of malfeasance by federal officials is irrelevant. No one has suggested that the ease of immigration or lack thereof is material to its legality or lack thereof.

Having your green card revoked is actually quite difficult but not impossible. A green card may be revoked based on numerous grounds including: fraud, criminal activity and/or abandonment.
1. Fraud: If a green card holder lied, omitted relevant information or committed any fraud during the application process, his or her green card may be revoked. For example, marriage fraud is grounds for deportation. If a foreign national marries a U.S. citizen solely for the purpose of obtaining a green card, his or her status as a lawful permanent resident may be revoked.
2. Criminal activity: The INA details specific crimes that would subject a non-citizen to deportation. Crimes involving moral turpitude, aggravated felonies and certain drug-related crimes can all subject a lawful permanent resident to revocation of their green card.
3. Abandonment: An individual may lose lawful permanent resident status by intentionally abandoning it. You may be found to have abandoned your status if you: (1) move to another country and intend to live there permanently; (2) remain outside the U.S. for an extended period of time (more than 183 days), unless you intended this to be a temporary absence; (3) fail to file income tax returns while living outside the U.S.; and/or (4) declare yourself a “nonimmigrant” on your U.S. tax returns.

https://berardiimmigrationlaw.com/ca...-card-revoked/

A person is subject to revocation of naturalization if there is deliberate deceit on the part of the person in misrepresenting or failing to disclose a material fact or facts on his or her naturalization application and subsequent examination.

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/...rt-l-chapter-2

This is what lawyers are for.

[Heathen Hammer]

It is quite easy to avoid being detained by ICE - don't enter US illegally. This shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp, well, except for liberals that virtue signal to pretend they care about "poor immigrants" while supporting predatory neoliberal policies that over Central and South America and thus create the need for people there to emigrate.

[The Guy With No Imagination]

Wow thatÂ’s alot of cope just to say nothing at all. The only strawman here is yours, and citing news stories alleging individual cases of malfeasance by federal officials is irrelevant. No one has suggested that the ease of immigration or lack thereof is material to its legality or lack thereof.


This is what lawyers are for.

If the legal requirements for legal entry are prohibitively complicated, to the point that no one can be expected to reasonably complete them, and they become in violation of the law for missing a deadline (not unreasonable considering these people work jobs and support family even whilst here "illegally"), then I think you have a system that is designed to purposefully fail the people it's trying to serve.

Someone can do the whole process "legally" and up until one bad day and are thereafter "illegal." Never mind the fact that they may have been established members of their communities. Even whilst written policies are in place that supposedly make it difficult to actually mess with someone's immigration status, I think we've seen (especially under the last three and a half years) a very apparent bending of the rules a failure of our system of checks and balances to reign in governmental overreach, excess, and abuse of its authority.

I'm not saying deportations aren't always unjustified. I just think the system is very clearly being abused and abusive towards people that for the most part want nothing more than to be able to work and pay their taxes as law-abiding citizens, and the U.S. government gets away with it because said people don't look like good ol' fashioned patriots far and wide.

As for the news sources I posted they were just meant to list off examples of people who were deported or faced deportation despite either 1) serving in the United States Military like your original point or 2) Were legal citizens or here legally and still getting detained and otherwise shafted.
& lol @ heathenhammer

[Vanoi]

It is quite easy to avoid being detained by ICE - don't enter US illegally. This shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp, well, except for liberals that virtue signal to pretend they care about "poor immigrants" while supporting predatory neoliberal policies that over Central and South America and thus create the need for people there to emigrate.

What are some examples of these predatory neoliberal policies?

[Love Mountain]

Legal immigrants are per-processed in their respective countries, ICE has no reason to hold any of them. In fact ICE has very little to do with legal immigrants. Also the article more or less confirms it's about illegal immigrants.

I fail to see what this sentence has to do with either the OP, or sub-standard treatment of human beings, many of them being kids.

So a few incidents that otherwise show that the system functions humanely. Those cases should be looked into but a handful of incidents is not the national catastrophe you paint it to be.

Where does it say that the system "functions humanely otherwise"?

You blamed the republican party for the behaviour of ICE. I asked you why is the fossil party to blame? Is ICE an agency of the fossil party? No? The they are not responsible for how it is run. Responsability for the actions of ICE lay squarely at the feet of leadership structures and employees of ICE. Not president orangutan, not president weaksauce and neither of the two parties.

The Republican party is in control of the Senate, and Congress, as a whole, is perfectly capable of ending these practices or demanding further scrutiny. Democrats have repeatedly called for investigations and a review of immigration policy. The Republican party has stonewalled them at every turn. So yes, my blame falls, though it is not limited to, on the Republican Party.

According to what authority? Your own personal opinion on the matter is meaningless. As is everybody else's.

According to the practices he continues to carry out, his rhetoric, his attempts to round up immigrants and make their lives harder.

They're not kept in substandard conditions as far as I know. Besides I don't think you know what substandard means. Google the immigrant shelters in Germany and France? Or better yet take a trip to Calais and see one for yourself.

Again, what does that have to do with what we are talking about?

No I am not ok with treating ILLEGAL immigrants like animals, they should be treated like suspects until they are cleared though a background check. I never said anywhere that I am ok with treating them like animals nor did anybody else. You just pulled that out of your ass.

Then why is it so hard for you to admit that these facilities are run in sub-standard manner and treat immigrants badly?

Anyway let's recap, since you are clearly not getting why detention is necessary. We both agree that processing immigrants is necessary, be they legal or otherwise. Last year the US saw up to 4000 illegal immigrants per day from Mexico alone. What method of processing those 4000 immigrants per day do you propose - given that a background check can take days, there is a major global pandemic going on, and terrorist threats and cartel threats were higher than ever before in the past few years.

I am eagerly awaiting your solution that does not involve some form of detention.

I said, regardless of your opinion on immigration reform, we can all rally behind awful treatment of fellow human beings and we can all demand that detention facilities be run in a humane manner. I'll quote my own OP to remind you.

"Regardless of your stance on borders and immigration, I think all members of the Forum can agree that all human beings deserve due process and humane treatment. At the very least, these serious allegations deserve further scrutiny, and if the White House denies that these allegations have any merit, then they should fully co-operate with any investigation."

Your demeanor, seems to suggest that we should prove that every single facility has to be convicted of mis-management before we do anything. Anything, like a basic investigation of current ICE practices. Well it's not. Evidence has already been cited that numerous facilities, in different parts of the country, treat detainees terribly. That warrants further action and condemnation. Glad to see your immediate reflex is to emphasize that "illegal immigrants are illegal". Typical.

I for one favor a pragmatic approach that offers the millions of illegal aliens living and working in the US for decades a pathway to legal status and even citizenship in exchange for military or other acceptable public service, including those who fail to appear in court, a figure that has increased 69% in recent years (2011-2015). This is a magnanimous option that gives these illegal immigrants the gift of living and working in our country, something to which they are by no means entitled. This has been a problem for decades, regardless of how badly the OP would like to employ the “silence is complicity” sloganeering that has become the emotional rallying cry of “la resistance” vs Trump.

A simple statement that sub-standard treatment of human beings, regardless of their residency status, is all that was required. But I see that even such a small sentence was morally challenging for you to type out.

[Heathen Hammer]

What are some examples of these predatory neoliberal policies?

CIA activity in the region, operation "fast and furious", support for violent regimes and paramilitaries, etc.

[Lord Thesaurian]

If the legal requirements for legal entry are prohibitively complicated, to the point that no one can be expected to reasonably complete them, and they become in violation of the law for missing a deadline (not unreasonable considering these people work jobs and support family even whilst here "illegally"), then I think you have a system that is designed to purposefully fail the people it's trying to serve.

Someone can do the whole process "legally" and up until one bad day and are thereafter "illegal." Never mind the fact that they may have been established members of their communities. Even whilst written policies are in place that supposedly make it difficult to actually mess with someone's immigration status, I think we've seen (especially under the last three and a half years) a very apparent bending of the rules a failure of our system of checks and balances to reign in governmental overreach, excess, and abuse of its authority.

I'm not saying deportations aren't always unjustified. I just think the system is very clearly being abused and abusive towards people that for the most part want nothing more than to be able to work and pay their taxes as law-abiding citizens, and the U.S. government gets away with it because said people don't look like good ol' fashioned patriots far and wide.

As for the news sources I posted they were just meant to list off examples of people who were deported or faced deportation despite either 1) serving in the United States Military like your original point or 2) Were legal citizens or here legally and still getting detained and otherwise shafted.
& lol @ heathenhammer

I’m aware USCIS sucks. It’s worse than the DMV. People haven’t made drivers licenses and insurance requirements a political football so far though, presumably because everyone hates the DMV so there’s no way to use it to divide people into camps for political capital. If laws were broken we have laws and lawyers for that too.

The main reason immigration is a polemical issue today is because for decades authorities watched millions of people break the law with relative impunity because it is considered good for business or just because who cares, meaning politicians are just using their own catastrophic failures to divide us for their gain. The US is still the number one destination for international “resident migrants” globally by far, so I’m not sure where you’re going with the suggestion that the system is inherently unfair or overly punitive. Talk of labor shortages is really about skills/opportunity shortages, which if anything highlights the the phenomenon of native skill gaps and tens of millions out of the labor force for related reasons. You can do whatever you want to immigration laws. Won’t fix that.

A simple statement that sub-standard treatment of human beings, regardless of their residency status, is all that was required. But I see that even such a small sentence was morally challenging for you to type out.

It’s a simple statement yet one can demand people line up to issue simple statements on penalty of moral indignation? Stunning and brave new world.

[Vanoi]

CIA activity in the region, operation "fast and furious", support for violent regimes and paramilitaries, etc.

Operation Fast And Furious began under Bush. The rest of what you said is true but it was done by every single administration including Republican administrations. So the current situation definitely isn't the fault of just liberals.

[Heathen Hammer]

Operation Fast And Furious began under Bush. The rest of what you said is true but it was done by every single administration including Republican administrations. So the current situation definitely isn't the fault of just liberals.

There is no functional difference between neocons and neoliberals, so my point still stands.

[Vanoi]

There is no functional difference between neocons and neoliberals, so my point still stands.

Neo cons didn't exist for much of the 20th century while American was messing around in Central and South America. In fact it really began in the early 1900s so no you can't blame it on neoliberalism nor neoconservatism.

[Coughdrop addict]

That many of these people were asking for asylum doesn't seem to register with the right. Let's be honest, their support for, or at least indifference to, forced hysterectomies and other deliberate abuses of detainees is entirely based said detainees' skin color and if you could magically make everyone in these camps white their opinions would immediately do a 180.

Once Biden is in office we need to not only shut down ICE, but send it's leadership to the Hague to be charged with crimes against humanity. "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg and it shouldn't work now.

[Lord Thesaurian]

That many of these people were asking for asylum doesn't seem to register with the right. Let's be honest, their support for, or at least indifference to, forced hysterectomies and other deliberate abuses of detainees is entirely based said detainees' skin color and if you could magically make everyone in these camps white their opinions would immediately do a 180.

Once Biden is in office we need to not only shut down ICE, but send it's leadership to the Hague to be charged with crimes against humanity. "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg and it shouldn't work now.

Are you suggesting the millions of European immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries were welcomed with open arms?

[Heathen Hammer]

Neo cons didn't exist for much of the 20th century while American was messing around in Central and South America. In fact it really began in the early 1900s so no you can't blame it on neoliberalism nor neoconservatism.

People aren't running from US invasion of early 1900s, they are running from results of US foreign policy post-1960s when neocons branched out of liberals. So Democrat crocodile tears over detained illegal aliens are nothing but posturing, as they themselves contributed to this situation. We don't see them demanding to even end such policies, they just want to have more welfare migrants who would vote for them if/when they get citizenship.
Then again, we are talking about same party that whines about institutional racism" while picking a guy who spent past 40 years in government passing laws that put thousands of black people in jail for nonviolent offenses.

That many of these people were asking for asylum doesn't seem to register with the right. Let's be honest, their support for, or at least indifference to, forced hysterectomies and other deliberate abuses of detainees is entirely based said detainees' skin color and if you could magically make everyone in these camps white their opinions would immediately do a 180.

Once Biden is in office we need to not only shut down ICE, but send it's leadership to the Hague to be charged with crimes against humanity. "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg and it shouldn't work now.

You are speaking of Sleepy Joe like he is some kind of revolutionary.
Biden was in the government for almost half of past century, passing same laws and backing same foreign policy that led to situation where people in those countries need asylum.

[Vanoi]

People aren't running from US invasion of early 1900s,

Yes poverty and violence are the reasons. All of which began in the early 1900s. You act as if US interventions throughout the 1900s have no current effect on today's situation.

they are running from results of US foreign policy post-1960s when neocons branched out of liberals. So Democrat crocodile tears over detained illegal aliens are nothing but posturing, as they themselves contributed to this situation. We don't see them demanding to even end such policies, they just want to have more welfare migrants who would vote for them if/when they get citizenship.
Then again, we are talking about same party that whines about institutional racism" while picking a guy who spent past 40 years in government passing laws that put thousands of black people in jail for nonviolent offenses.

Your entire point is based an an assumption with no evidence and plain out ignores any history before the 1960s.

[Love Mountain]

It’s a simple statement yet one can demand people line up to issue simple statements on penalty of moral indignation? Stunning and brave new world.

Morality is the original focus of this thread, you're more than welcome to continue avoiding it.

People aren't running from US invasion of early 1900s, they are running from results of US foreign policy post-1960s when neocons branched out of liberals. So Democrat crocodile tears over detained illegal aliens are nothing but posturing, as they themselves contributed to this situation. We don't see them demanding to even end such policies, they just want to have more welfare migrants who would vote for them if/when they get citizenship.
Then again, we are talking about same party that whines about institutional racism" while picking a guy who spent past 40 years in government passing laws that put thousands of black people in jail for nonviolent offenses.

I'm not sure what perceived hypocrisy has to do with current policy proposals. It's really simple, regardless of what happened in the past, one party wants to own up to their mistakes, the other wants to continue turning a blind eye towards abuse in ICE facilities.

You are speaking of Sleepy Joe like he is some kind of revolutionary.
Biden was in the government for almost half of past century, passing same laws and backing same foreign policy that led to situation where people in those countries need asylum.

Sleepy Joe is campaigning on immigration reform. Donny is campaigning on putting more men on the walls.

[Sir Adrian]

Bashing trump is the original focus of the thread if you ask me. Besides, we do not have evidence of anything immoral yet.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes poverty and violence are the reasons. All of which began in the early 1900s. You act as if US interventions throughout the 1900s have no current effect on today's situation.


Your entire point is based an an assumption with no evidence and plain out ignores any history before the 1960s.

More mental gymnastics, I see.
Again, current situation in South and Central America is result of neocon and neoliberal policies. Democrats are fine with the latter (in fact they contributed to it as much as pre-Trump GOP did), they just want more welfare voters, assuming the illegal aliens would qualify for citizenship in due time.

I'm not sure what perceived hypocrisy has to do with current policy proposals. It's really simple, regardless of what happened in the past, one party wants to own up to their mistakes, the other wants to continue turning a blind eye towards abuse in ICE facilities.

Again, Democrats are fine with brutalizing those regions, they just hope that illegal aliens from there naturalize and vote for them in exchange for welfare.

Sleepy Joe is campaigning on immigration reform. Donny is campaigning on putting more men on the walls.

US doesn't need an immigration reform, US needs to end "world policeman" foreign policy and Trump, at the very least, at least pretends to move in the right direction towards isolationism, Democrats openly rub shoulders with warmongering schizos like Bush, Mattis and now-dead McCain.

[Infidel144]

Operation Fast And Furious began under Bush.

No, it did not. It began at the end of October 2009.
The Bush era one was Wide Receiver and began in early 2006 and ran through most of 2007.

[Love Mountain]

Bashing trump is the original focus of the thread if you ask me. Besides, we do not have evidence of anything immoral yet.

Is there something wrong with bashing Trump? I did not know that criticism of POTUS was such a controversial topic. We've also established that there is evidence of something immoral in ICE facilities, your response if I recall correctly, was that we do not yet know if such heinous practices are employed by every single ICE employees at every single facility. Apparently, that's the standard we have to reach before we're allowed to be upset.

[Heathen Hammer]

Is there something wrong with bashing Trump? I did not know that criticism of POTUS was such a controversial topic. We've also established that there is evidence of something immoral in ICE facilities, your response if I recall correctly, was that we do not yet know if such heinous practices are employed by every single ICE employees at every single facility. Apparently, that's the standard we have to reach before we're allowed to be upset.

Because you are upset with consequences and not the cause, and Trump is opposed to the cause, so criticizing him over plight of people that run from their nations due to decades of predatory neoliberal foreign policy is hypocritical.