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Thread: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

  1. #41
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Is there something wrong with bashing Trump? I did not know that criticism of POTUS was such a controversial topic. We've also established that there is evidence of something immoral in ICE facilities, your response if I recall correctly, was that we do not yet know if such heinous practices are employed by every single ICE employees at every single facility. Apparently, that's the standard we have to reach before we're allowed to be upset.
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing leadership, it's the hallmark of a functioning democracy, however constructive criticism and trying to make anything bad that happens anywhere in the country about the president are bigly different /*wink*/

    If you want to criticize Trump's policies criticize Trump's policies. But blaming the actions of others and the efficiency of ICE solely on him is intellectually wrong.
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  2. #42

    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing leadership, it's the hallmark of a functioning democracy, however constructive criticism and trying to make anything bad that happens anywhere in the country about the president are bigly different /*wink*/
    ICE is directly under executive leadership. So insinuating that this is another instance of "Orange Man Bad" is a cop-out, rather than a salient observation of the intent of this thread. Which, by the way, I didn't even make. You can thank the mods for that. I just thought it would be a good example of how callously current government authorities treat people, as evidenced by police brutality discussed in the George Floyd thread, but the mods thought it to be sufficient as a separate topic.

    If you want to criticize Trump's policies criticize Trump's policies. But blaming the actions of others and the efficiency of ICE solely on him is intellectually wrong.
    Current practices and failures of ICE are directly linked to Trump's policies. I'm not blaming Trump for a single ICE agent beating up a helpless immigrant. I'll go even further and not blame him for systematic abuse and human rights violations throughout ICE facilities. However, Trump's lack of care, refusal to address such complaints, and policies that directly contribute to the current crisis are certainly a large part of the problem. He owns that.

  3. #43
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    ICE is run by its own leadership that answers to executive leadership. Moreover the abuses of one employee are the fault of executive leadership. They're exclusively the fault of the employee and any accomplices he might have had.


    Current ICE practices have been in place since Bush and Obama, Trump did not change much of anything. Caught immigrants were detained since before ICE even existed, in fact it was Bill Clinton who started the detainment, and Hillary worked to expand it while secretary.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    ICE is run by its own leadership that answers to executive leadership. Moreover the abuses of one employee are the fault of executive leadership. They're exclusively the fault of the employee and any accomplices he might have had.
    Are you telling me that ICE is not accountable to President Trump?

    Current ICE practices have been in place since Bush and Obama, Trump did not change much of anything. Caught immigrants were detained since before ICE even existed, in fact it was Bill Clinton who started the detainment, and Hillary worked to expand it while secretary.
    Are you telling me that President Trump has not made any changes to DHS or ICE?

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    I'm telling you that detention and the treatment of immigrants have not changed. I don't see what ICE being accountable to the government has to do with anything. Trump is not accountable for everything every government employee does.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I'm telling you that detention and the treatment of immigrants have not changed.
    You're going to need a source for that.

    I don't see what ICE being accountable to the government has to do with anything. Trump is not accountable for everything every government employee does.
    ICE being accountable to government, means that the ultimate responsibility for mishaps and mistreatment in their facilities lays with Donald Trump. Similarly, nobody is blaming the President for every single war crime that a soldier commuted during Iraq, but the President is responsible for on-going hostilities, for allowing war crimes to happen because you know, he did declare war, and for action or lack of action in regards to such issues. For instance, the Abu Ghraib scandal under President Bush. While initially denying that the alleged accusations were even true, Bush eventually apologized and promised to prevent this from happening again.

    The on-going crisis in ICE facilities is much wider in scope, in that regard, and coverage dates back to 2018 at the very least. With the current allegations of medical abuse of women, at the hands of a doctor contracted by ICE, this issue warrants attention more than ever. Where is the Presidential Orange? Well he's definitely not apologizing or promising to fix these issues.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    You're going to need a source for that.
    You can't prove something that did not happen. You can disprove what I said by showing the changes in detention conditions made by Trump. But there is no "everything stays the same" bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    ICE being accountable to government, means that the ultimate responsibility for mishaps and mistreatment in their facilities lays with Donald Trump. Similarly, nobody is blaming the President for every single war crime that a soldier commuted during Iraq, but the President is responsible for on-going hostilities, for allowing war crimes to happen because you know, he did declare war, and for action or lack of action in regards to such issues. For instance, the Abu Ghraib scandal under President Bush. While initially denying that the alleged accusations were even true, Bush eventually apologized and promised to prevent this from happening again.

    The on-going crisis in ICE facilities is much wider in scope, in that regard, and coverage dates back to 2018 at the very least. With the current allegations of medical abuse of women, at the hands of a doctor contracted by ICE, this issue warrants attention more than ever. Where is the Presidential Orange? Well he's definitely not apologizing or promising to fix these issues.
    So basically what you are saying is that Trump has no blame for what that doctor did, which I've been saying all along.
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Reports of abuse and neglect in ICE camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    You can't prove something that did not happen.
    Nobody is asking you to, but, providing proof that treatment of detained immigrants has stayed largely the same is not "impossible".

    You can disprove what I said by showing the changes in detention conditions made by Trump. But there is no "everything stays the same" bill.
    By Trump personally? Or is Trump also not responsible for policies instituted by the people he appointed?

    So basically what you are saying is that Trump has no blame for what that doctor did, which I've been saying all along.
    Where did I say that?

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