Medieval warfare - clips, materials, discussions

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Guys,
I've seen recently two good clips on the warfare in the SSHIP (extended ;-) period

- Scholagladiatoria on the knights,
- SandRhoman on the Black Riders (they're in the SSHIP iirc)

I think that given the steep downslide of the battles in the TW series (and especially the mechanics) we may resume the discussions that were raging in the Stainless Steel forum 10 years ago.

JoC

[removeduser_28376423423]

I think that given the steep downslide of the battles in the TW series (and especially the mechanics) we may resume the discussions that were raging in the Stainless Steel forum 10 years ago.

JoC

I guess a start could be swords being used as primary weapons (and cutting through plate armor), oh wait...

[Nemesis2345]

Newer TW Titles be like : STAY IN LINE , ONLY 1V1 BATTLES , WAIT YOUR TURN when 2 units fight.

[Dekhatres]

I guess a start could be swords being used as primary weapons (and cutting through plate armor), oh wait...

hhnnnngggg i must deboooonk

swords wuz primary weapon and your helmet is invalid

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

swords can melt steel helmets, 1204 wasnt an inside job

[removeduser_28376423423]

Hey, I've come up with an idea, I've been experimenting with this, in SSHIP https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...nt-Speed-Tweak
What surprised me about it was that it also sped up the animations (So i got better unit responsiveness, plus more intense combat, charges that felt epic, etc.). Of course, it sped up the pace of battles a bit, but imo wasn't as drastic as I expected, then the other issue was that cavalry in charges moved too fast, So I thought, what if someone were to adjust it to make the melee combat and kill animations to look realistic in speed, then correct the individual units running speed through the EDU? Moreover, the battle pacing could be set up by changing the melee-hit-rate. I'd like to attempt this if anyone else was interested.

[Belovèse]

Hey sindathar, just read this thread, did you try the speed balance? I would be curious to try it.

[removeduser_28376423423]

Hey sindathar, just read this thread, did you try the speed balance? I would be curious to try it.

I've not touched the EDU yet, but you can try changing the values in the other file, mine are currently different too:
descr_battle_map_movement_modifiers.txt It speeds animations and movement, slightly. I'd prefer even faster melee, but that would require to slow unit running speed

Now that I think about it, I don't know if changes in the EDU increase the animations speed also, if it works like that, then what I proposed couldn't be done.

[Jurand of Cracow]

A recent clip of SandRhoman on Infantry Revolution is quite important for the SSHIP time period.

[Kilgore Trout]

A chat with the stunt team for the upcoming Knights of the Cross historical drama TV series - Written, directed, and produced by the Real Crusades History man himself, J. Stephen Roberts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7ji_JKHPr8

Here is a recent example of one of his wonderful documentaries on the Crusades, entitled: Richard the Lionheart's Conquest of Cyprus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV2dMs737MY

Also, thanks to Jurand for Infantry Revolution. It was very informative and well-done!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Well, this is not about warfare but about historicity of details of the world that was there in the past.

[Macaras]

Hi, I found this video very interesting and very informing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX5s3JNfFMI

About Mongols vs Knights

[AlberdoBalsam]

"The Normans, who are newly come among us, may be very good soldiers in their own country, and expert in the use of arms and armour after the French fashion, but every one knows how much that differs from the mode of wardare in Ireland and Wales. In France, it is carried on in champaign country, here it is rough and mountainours; there you have open plains, here you find dense woods. In France, it is counted an honours to wear armour, here it is found to be cumbersome; there, quarter is given, prisoners being taken and admitted to ranson, here their heads are chopped off as throphies, and no one escapes. Where armies engage in a plain country, that heavy and complex armour, whether shirts of mail, or coat armor of steel, is both a splendid ornament of the knights and men-at-arms, and also necessary for their protection. But where you have to fight in narrow passes, and in woods and bogs. in which foot-soldiers are more servicable then horsemen, a far lighter kind of armour is preferable. In fighting against naked and unarmed men, whose only hope of success lies in the impetousity of their first attack, men in light armour can pursue the fugitives, an agile race, with more activity, and cut them down in narrow passes and amongst crags and mountains. The normans, with this complex armor and their deeply curved saddles, find great difficulty in getting on horseback and dismoutning and still greated when occasion requires that they shall march on foot."
- Gerald of Wales

Some interesting ideas on how different warfare was in Ireland. Did SSHIP change how light infantry works? They could have a lot more stamina, than heavier infantry.

[AlberdoBalsam]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Veit Stoss altarpiece in Kraków. Seems like Poland had the same armor as Germany then. There are hints that even 14th century western polish armor has similarities with german style. In this case the guy with gothic plate is probably mounted crossbowman, because of his leg harness. That other guy with a sallet right next to him might be footman, but who knows, could be light cavalry as well. Don't mind the bascinets, they show up in biblical scenes even in 16th century, but they were no longer in use by then. It also could be that these guys are just using extremely outdated armor. Don't mistake this with great bascinets, which were using even in 16th century. This really shows how similar polish choice of armor was to german, its also seen in battle of Orsha painting later.

[Jurand of Cracow]

we actually have this altar in-game. It's inside this building:

[AlberdoBalsam]

Good to know that the devs are taking into account even such small details of historical accuracy. My advice if there are going to be changes made for polish units.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Its best to not take this book seriously. For later periods, its shows dubious choices of armor like: out of place scale vests, scale aventails, year 1420 soldiers wearing outdated splinted leg and arm harness elements, outdated Visby coat of plates variants, which have no place in 1420 german or polish armor, teutonic order auxilaries having horses with eastern chamfrons and lamellar (or maybe mail and plate?) caparison. There might be lots of other stuff that i don't know or haven't seen. I only know russian variant of the book, polish could be different, but i don't think the datings of illustrations would be different. All in all, the book as so many good primary sources like the altar i posted, but it also shows lots of wrong things, so beware.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Very interesting opinion. I've got this book and I find it very well researched. This is also very trustworthy university, and the author is held in high esteem. It'd be very good if you could point at a scientific review of this book where the shortcomings you've mentioned are elaborated.

[AlberdoBalsam]

These are from the russian version of the book. If anyone has polish or any other version, please share some of these illustrations to see if they have the same dating as in russian version.

On scale armor. Its a hard topic to discuss, becasue of the lack of archaeological evidence. We do have some scale in art, however. Some of that art seems realistic and by looking at the context, scale armor is plausible there. However, if scale is depicted in biblical scenes, which are supposed to show historical roman armor, its not a good evidence. Here is at least some good evidence for scale armor in 14th century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

These are the illustrations from the book with the datings. Here is where things get weird.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First, lets talk about the guy from 1330. His armor isn't really bad, but its weird how he is supposed to be Teutonic Order's auxilary, yet he has byzantine kettle helm. But this is not relevant, what is relevant is his use of that scale best. Scale armor probably existed in 14th century, yet shows up rarely in art. Why would he have it, i don't know. Same story with the guy from the 1420. Its written in the book that he is prussian, so he would use western armor at this point. What i don't understand is why he is wearing that scale vest? Really, where does this idea come from that TO auxilaries wore scale armor? The guy from 1250 is even more weird. Is that some kind of joke? There are 0 sources for scale aventail like this for prussians. The only helmets found in Sambian peninsula that are attributed to prussians don't have any trace of scale aventail.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lets talk about this now. Splinted arm and leg harness this late? Why? It belongs to transitional plate armor times, not when its dated in these illustrations. There are depictions around year 1420 of splinted arm or leg armor that would justify it somewhat, but not like this, where almost every soldier is wearing it. but we will get to that later. What i don't understand is the 1400-1475 dating to that image. Is it supposed to mean that splinted graves were used by Teutonic Oder even in 1475? That is completely out of the question.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Splinted armor belongs to 13th century, these images here are depicting old, historical armor by the time they were painted and show content like biblical scenes. Its the same like in Veit Stoss altar in St. Mary's Basilica, which shows a biblical scene with outdated bascinets. Some of them you can trust a bit more, but some of them are just showing armor that did not exist then and was also non-functional. You can see why in the bottom two images. One has completely out of shape breastplate, which would not be possible to move in and other has fauld made out of vertical splints, which would not let you sit down. On more realistic depictions of splint armor of this era, we can see the disparity of how little it is done. Despite Speculum Humanae Salvationis showing biblical events, its showing only that splinted arm harness one or two times. Here is the rest of arm and leg harness, depicted in Speculum Humanae Salvationis.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Next is the Visby coat of plate styles, shown as 15th century armor. How about no? This is not 1360 Scandinavia, germans had their own style of coat of plates in 1360. They simply could not have used Visby coat of plates in 1420. By that time, breastplates with jupons bellow or under were popular, kastenbrusts were also used, just not Visby coat of plates, not in this universe.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Finally, this choice. Just why? Why would they choose to illustrate TO auxilaries with eastern horse armor? That mail and plate caparison is 15th century at best and it has nothing to do with Teutonic Order. Why the eastern chamfron too? Europeans had their own styles of chamfrom, why did they copy this exact one?

[AlberdoBalsam]

German armor of the period around 1420. Mostly effigies. Splint arm and leg armor fallen out of use.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second half of 14th century german armor mostly on effigies again. Splint arm and leg armor shows up sometimes. Germans were not using fully developed arm harness that often, as you can see. By the year 1360, they are still using good amount of kits, where the only part of arm harness is the gauntlet, while the rest is defended by mail sleeve. Even then you can see an instance of splinted vambrace in 1359. You can also see in the effigies how german coat of plates or covered breastplates looked like in 14th century. No sight of Visby coat of plates. Its worse that the book is showing Visby coat of plates even 100 years later, besides already being out of place for Teutonic Order.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think the only way to see these images detailed is to open them in a new window. They are pretty high res.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, @Alberdo!
very interesting indeed, I think it'll be useful for @kostic for the modifications of the units.

I must admit I haven't paid attention to the pictures from the book you're showing. I was much more interested in the historical photos reproductions and the text analysis by the author. BTW, the pictures are not his products, but of an illustrator of the book.

[AlberdoBalsam]

"All in all, the book as so many good primary sources like the altar i posted, but it also shows lots of wrong things, so beware." That's why i said this. There are some good sources in that book, which are unknown to most people. It really debunks what people think about Polish military history, seeing it as some kind of backwater, trying to copy the west and incapable to do so effectivelly. The truth is, Poland did copy the west, especially germans, but they did not fall behind. There are some effigies of nobles in Poland that show highly advanced plate arm and leg harness in those times, when german knights were only wearing mostly mail sleeves with gauntlets.

Speaking about bad illustrations, its hard to trust anything these days. Take youtube channels like Kings And Generals, for example. They have a huge audience, must be fell financed as well, because of that. In their last video, they say that greek used hoplon at one point, but they show scutum. I don't understand how someone can mix these iconic shields up, especially with a big channel like this.