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Thread: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

  1. #1
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Section III - Praefects, Censors, Ostraka and Magistrates
    Article I. The Triumvirate and Referrals Ostraka
    Citizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Praefects for a review of their behavior and possible disciplinary action. Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred, or discretionally by Citizens for behavior considered unbecoming. Praefects may decide if a referral is frivolous, and decide to dismiss. If a referral has merit, the Praefects request a defense2 from the referred and decides3 whether4 and which5 disciplinary action is to be taken.6

    If a citizen receives an infraction the Consul suspends their citizenship until the infraction has expired or is revoked.

    If a citizen believes an offense by another citizen is egregious enough to bring before the entire Curia that citizen may initiate an Ostrakon.7,11

    The Triumvirate consists of:

    The Praefects - Who discuss and vote on every Referral. The Primus Praefect holds the tiebreaking vote if necessary.
    The Consul and Censors - Who may discuss Referrals, hold no vote, except in the case of infractions issued to citizens in the Curia where they will act in place of Praefects.
    The Hexagon Council - Who may choose to participate.


    Praefects, Censors, and the Consul must recuse themselves in their own referrals or any case of a non-Curial infraction they may have issued elsewhere as a site moderator.8

    If a Citizen is not satisfied with the result of their referral, they may request a public appeal. The appeal will be discussed and decided in the Curia.9 The result is binding and is not subject to further appeal.


    R&P changes
    1 No Citizen may be subject to more than one Referral for a single post.

    2 After receiving a referral, the Praefects may informally vote to dismiss the case if deemed frivolous, i.e. lacking completeness or objectively without merit for the referral process. All praefects, if not having to recuse themselves, must at a minimum post their intent to "Dismiss" the case, otherwise it will be brought to a full referral process. This dismissal can be done and completed before or after a defense is received at the Primus Praefect's discretion.

    3 The defendant receives an anonymous copy of the accusation from the Praefects. Any defense must be provided within ninety-six hours of the request. At the request of the referred, the Praefects also accept materials provided on behalf of the referred. Such materials shall be posted until a decision for dismissal or continuation is reached, and must be considered by the Triumvirate in the poll, if such a poll is required.

    4 A simple majority of non-abstaining votes is required to pass. Where two options have the same number of votes, the Consul or Praefect breaks the tie. Votes submitted by members of the Triumvirate shall be accompanied by a post stating which option the member selected, along with their reasoning.

    5Four days after requesting a defense, regardless of whether it has been received, and if not dismissed, a vote is opened by a Praefect to conclude after four days with the options to take further action, or abstain.

    6 If the Citizens' Triumvirate vote to take further action, a Praefect opens a poll for four days. The options are:
    Censure
    Suspension of Citizenship for 1 month
    Suspension of Citizenship for 2 months
    Suspension of Citizenship for 4 months
    Suspension of Citizenship for 6 months
    Revocation of Citizenship
    Abstain

    7 All citizen initiated referrals processed as Ostrakons are public. All other referrals are private unless the member referred requests for them to be made public.

    8If a Praefect must recuse themselves, the Consul may step into their voting position. Praefects may recuse themselves from citizen initiated referrals but not from staff initiated referral (except one against themselves or one they were involved in directly as a site moderator). If at any point the majority of Praefects must recuse themselves, the entire process is referred to the Consul and Censors.

    9 The Consul posts any original private referral and further action threads in the Questiones Perpetuae, and opens a new poll thread with the options to keep, overturn or change the ruling, or abstain. The poll lasts four days. If the Citizenry votes to change the punishment, the Consul opens a second poll for four days. The options are all punishments excluding the original punishment, and abstention. A simple majority of non-abstaining votes is required for the first vote. In the case of a vote to either increase or decrease punishment, in the second vote, the option with the highest number of votes is the punishment given. Where two options have the same number of votes, the punishment given is determined by the Multiple Transferable Vote System.



    10 Should a Tribune recuse themselves, or there is a tie between Tribunes, the other Magistrate respectively votes in their stead, or is called to break the tie. Magistrates are terminated by a unanimous vote of the Tribunes.

    11 A citizen initiates an ostrakon by making a case via private message to one of the Praefects the Consul, who. A majority vote of the prefects determines if an ostrakon has merit. If an ostrakon has merit:

    The Primus Praefect Consul notifies the defendant and requests a defense
    After a defense is provided, or after one week if no defense is provided, the Primus Praefect Consul posts the ostrakon accusation and defense within the Quaestiones Perpetuae
    After three days of discussion a Praefect the Consul adds a poll lasting seven days to either Dismiss, Revoke Citizenship, or Abstain. A 2/3rds majority of non-abstaining votes is required for revocation.


    We've been talking about this at lengths, so here goes.

    Reasoning in short:

    You cannot apply for citizenship with but one active infraction. Consequently, as long as you have an infraction, you have to let your citizenship rest and will get it back afterwards.

    As for citizen referrals, the system was based on a major conceptual inconsistency:
    It hinged on people being mature enough to use the referral system in a level headed way. However, people acting maturely don't need to be referred in the first place. On the other hand, when things got out of hand the very lack of maturity that caused the referral prevented the process from being fruitful.

    Hence, when it would have been functional the system was not needed, and when it was needed it wasn't functional. So, I say we scrap it.
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  2. #2
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Fine with me. Support.
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    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Support again.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    I support, but can we keep the part about citizens behaving in an exemplary manner. It is flowery, yes, but it is important to explicitly state.
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  5. #5
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    I believe this proposal requires a revision of the constitution.

    Anyway, I support it as it make sense and I also think what Flinn said is sensible.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I need no Ostrakons.. I want no mentions to standards or behavior anymore, I don't want to have any opportunity for one citizen to hijack another citizen.. I just want the Curia to comply with the ToS, anyone who breaks the ToS gets an automatic suspension for the same period as the infraction is valid, just this..

    then for the technocrats we can still have the opportunity to expand on "what happens when the suspended citizen also holds a curial position" and "what that could imply for future applications of said citizen to the curial positions".. or even "after how many suspensions is the citizen stripped of their badge?"

    but please, let's get rid of those silly, inapplicable standards and let's stop the crossfire, the vendettas and all the personal references (allowing personal references in a place where people is supposed to "debate" and idea or a proposal is silly and ineffective IMO, wonder why it's not allowed in the D&D?)
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I believe this proposal requires a revision of the constitution.
    I mean, that's literally what an amendment is :p

    Support.
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  7. #7
    Flinn's Avatar May the Forza (Italia) be with you!
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    @ Iski.. can you explain me in clear terms which is the difference between and Ostrakon and a Citizen referral?

    consider that I'm dumb, and that I hate bureaucracy
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    @ Iski.. can you explain me in clear terms which is the difference between and Ostrakon and a Citizen referral?

    consider that I'm dumb, and that I hate bureaucracy
    Basically a VoNC against a Citizen to strip them of their citizenship
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  9. #9
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Yeh, the ostrakon is just the reversed citizenship application. No shadings, just in or out. It was already in the paragraph and is a separate process from the referrals (public, to begin with), so I left it in.
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  10. #10
    Flinn's Avatar May the Forza (Italia) be with you!
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    I see, then I don't like the very concept of Ostrakon.. as I said in the post Leo quoted, I want to get rid of any form of referral, once and for all

    edit: but I suppose we can go by steps.. let's get rid of referrals now, maybe tomorrow we can get rid of ostrakons as well

    support
    Last edited by Flinn; September 03, 2020 at 10:00 AM.
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  11. #11
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    If a citizen receives an infraction the Consul suspends their citizenship until the infraction has expired or is revoked.
    If a citizen believes an offense by another citizen is egregious enough to bring before the entire Curia that citizen may initiate an Ostrakon.
    While I agree with the sentiment there is an inherent flaw in the proposal, that citizens have the level of maturity where by adhering to the ToS is enough. You and I (among others) have discussed how far citizen behaviour and the dumbing down of the curia has slipped from the days when the 'spirit' of each, under threat of ostrakon, was enough of a deterrent to maintain anything close to resembling the behaviour expected.

    When Ostrakon was the punishment for misbehaviour in the past citizens respected the badge enough that anyone put forward could not slide through because of a popularity vote. I do not believe that would be the case today. In light of that it would take a serious breech to convince the curia to remove an accused of their citizenship. Given the current numbers a failed Ostrakon would leave the curia open to acts of petulance such as the below mentioned proposal.

    To prove the point, there is currently a joke proposal in the curia vote forum which is only there because the proposer threatened the Consul with a VonC if procedure was not followed. This is a mockery of curial process and an exploitation of the 'spirit' of the constitution. As if to cement the lack of respect for citizenship and the agreement the curia has with Hex and the site owner, the proposer dared Hex to veto the proposal. Which, either they have to do, or allow the proposal to be implemented and essentially put an end to any modicum of respect the curia has. Little as that may be in some quarters.

    That said and, for what it's worth. I support the proposal.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    There are alternatives to citizen generated Ostrakon.

    Just like in the ToS, your posting can be suspended if you accumulate too many violations within a specify time. An Ostrakon vote could result of getting too many violations as well. Of course, this won't much of a difference of members slipping by based on popularity. However, that is a much larger and significant issue that cannot be address by simply adding or amending the Constitution. Things are taken too personal here. As long as that is the case, no one really wants to be a part of unless they are either sadistic or masochistic.

    ----

    Gig said, and I agree, that its too bad that frivolous proposals cannot be closed by the Consul. I would never support a VonC for any Consul who would make a sound decision regardless my personal opinion. The proposal does little to help the reputation of the Curia and citizenship in general.
    Last edited by PikeStance; September 03, 2020 at 11:15 PM.
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    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    To prove the point, there is currently a joke proposal in the curia vote forum which is only there because the proposer threatened the Consul with a VonC if procedure was not followed. This is a mockery of curial process and an exploitation of the 'spirit' of the constitution. As if to cement the lack of respect for citizenship and the agreement the curia has with Hex and the site owner, the proposer dared Hex to veto the proposal. Which, either they have to do, or allow the proposal to be implemented and essentially put an end to any modicum of respect the curia has. Little as that may be in some quarters.
    This situation can be avoided in the future with the other proposal here and with this add-on in it. On the principle, I fully agree with you.
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  14. #14
    Flinn's Avatar May the Forza (Italia) be with you!
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    While I agree with the sentiment there is an inherent flaw in the proposal, that citizens have the level of maturity where by adhering to the ToS is enough. You and I (among others) have discussed how far citizen behaviour and the dumbing down of the curia has slipped from the days when the 'spirit' of each, under threat of ostrakon, was enough of a deterrent to maintain anything close to resembling the behaviour expected.

    When Ostrakon was the punishment for misbehaviour in the past citizens respected the badge enough that anyone put forward could not slide through because of a popularity vote. I do not believe that would be the case today. In light of that it would take a serious breech to convince the curia to remove an accused of their citizenship. Given the current numbers a failed Ostrakon would leave the curia open to acts of petulance such as the below mentioned proposal.

    To prove the point, there is currently a joke proposal in the curia vote forum which is only there because the proposer threatened the Consul with a VonC if procedure was not followed. This is a mockery of curial process and an exploitation of the 'spirit' of the constitution. As if to cement the lack of respect for citizenship and the agreement the curia has with Hex and the site owner, the proposer dared Hex to veto the proposal. Which, either they have to do, or allow the proposal to be implemented and essentially put an end to any modicum of respect the curia has. Little as that may be in some quarters.

    That said and, for what it's worth. I support the proposal.
    thanks for the insight Halie

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Gig said, and I agree, that its too bad that frivolous proposals cannot be closed by the Consul. I would never support a VonC for any Consul who would make a sound decision regardless my personal opinion.
    same here

    as per the ostrakon and the citizenship removal, once this amendment will be over I'll be posting a proposal myself (or a discussion so that someone who's better than me with bureaucratic stuff can make up a proper proposal)
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  15. #15
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    While citizen referrals are vile and dishonorable for the citizen initiating them, giving the masses the power to remove someone would just lead to mob justice.
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  16. #16
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Since the ostrakon was already in the Constitution and was not added by this proposal, I'd like to keep that a separate issue from the removal of referrals. I'll be happy to take part in the discussion should anyone start one about ostraka.

    Could we get a vote on this, Mr Consul?
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Second, let's vote!
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  18. #18
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Thirded

  19. #19
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Since the ostrakon was already in the Constitution and was not added by this proposal, I'd like to keep that a separate issue from the removal of referrals. I'll be happy to take part in the discussion should anyone start one about ostraka.

    Could we get a vote on this, Mr Consul?

    Indeed you may
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  20. #20
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Ye Olde Referral Removal

    Voted.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

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