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Thread: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

  1. #121
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Well, you were close in the sense that you got the list of remaining factions pretty much bang on, and the Orcs are up for preview soon. But so glad someone has noticed the Thracian vibes - that's very much intentional!

  2. #122

    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    The Avari vibes have been a thing since the initial discussion on the Discord, IIRC.

  3. #123
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Thracians w/o light lancers are not thracians

    nice preview, what about their starting positions? NE of the Sear of Rhun?

  4. #124

    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Pretty much, yep - right along the northern and eastern coastline, in the woods.
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  5. #125
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    We imagine (plausibly enough, I think) that the forests there might be a bit larger in the mid Third Age than in the Fourth Age.

  6. #126
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    I really like the roster - I am very fond of characterful rosters, loved playing the Odrysians in Rome II, so I like characterful, tricky rosters.

    That said, If I may offer some constructive criticism, I feel like the uniformity of color schemes between units hampers the feel of the Avari as this 'barbaric', 'wilder' faction. Obviously, you can only do so much in RTW with its lack of internal unit variety, but I feel like the uniform use of silvers, browns and greens makes them feel too similar to the FATW Elves. Hence why I'd suggest the units having a greater variety of colors, alongside with more ornamentation to make them distinct.
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  7. #127
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    It is very useful feedback, thanks Feanaro When I go through all the rosters and do final touch ups before making the unit cards I'll keep it in mind. Giving the more 'irregular' armies and units more variety in colour and appearance is something that we've tried to do a bit more in Wainriders than in DoM, though it is tricky in the case of the elves (Silvan and Avari mostly) in that the clothing still needs to be plausible as forest camouflage in most, if not all cases.

  8. #128
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Quote Originally Posted by webba84 View Post
    It is very useful feedback, thanks Feanaro When I go through all the rosters and do final touch ups before making the unit cards I'll keep it in mind. Giving the more 'irregular' armies and units more variety in colour and appearance is something that we've tried to do a bit more in Wainriders than in DoM, though it is tricky in the case of the elves (Silvan and Avari mostly) in that the clothing still needs to be plausible as forest camouflage in most, if not all cases.
    Regarding picking colors that could be plausible as camouflage, I'd personally suggest not to stress it too much. Historically, to my knowledge military camouflage only really came to be more commonplace later in the era of gunpowder warfare, when missile exchanges became longer ranged and a lot more accurate. Even for ambushers such as the Avari portrayed here, they have the advantage of superior eyesight and mobility, alongside the fact that counter-fire would be difficult in deep woodlands to say the least, given we're talking about bows, slings and javelins as the primary ranged weapons most of the time. From a Middle-earth perspective, they could very well use some kind of magic if they really want to hide themselves. :V

    So, using greens and browns should probably be viewed as less of a military necessity and more of a fashion statement, opening up justification for them to use all kinds of colors.
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  9. #129
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Excellent point, well made!

  10. #130
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Very nice roster, Avari will be interesting faction to play indeed. I especially like their horse archer captains bodyguards. Only issue I see is that playing Avari you will have to wait untill developing top tier military administration to be able to recruit any cavalry. On the other hand it is only tier 3 which is usually not that dificult to obtian (I guess it may be even present from the start at the capital).

    Edit: As it was confirmed above that the Avari are going to live in the forest north and east of the Sea of Rhun I am winderin who will inhabit the lands of Dorwinion? Will these lands be represented as overun by the Western horde in the mod? Unitwise will there be any specific Gondor influenced AoR unit available in the region? I understand that lorewise FATW Kingdom of Dorwinion is concepted as a mannish kingdom established in the fourth age but there is still that infamous reference to Dorwinion in Hobbit which suggest that the region had some distinctive identity separate from rest of Rhovanion already by late third age.
    Last edited by demagogos nicator; November 16, 2020 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Adding additional question.

  11. #131

    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    The Avari are still elves, despite having low armor they're going to be very dangerous. (though I imagine significantly less so than top tier Ńoldor).

    And with higher pop growth it just means you have to be tricky and clever to get to the point where you can throw around more elves.

    As a faction, waiting makes sense too, they have to develop things, reflecting the development of a more sophisticated army. Well, relatively sophisticated.


    Anyway, it's been a week, I know the site's been down for a few days, but as we close in on the last few factions, I find myself getting more and more excited.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Regarding picking colors that could be plausible as camouflage, I'd personally suggest not to stress it too much. Historically, to my knowledge military camouflage only really came to be more commonplace later in the era of gunpowder warfare, when missile exchanges became longer ranged and a lot more accurate. Even for ambushers such as the Avari portrayed here, they have the advantage of superior eyesight and mobility, alongside the fact that counter-fire would be difficult in deep woodlands to say the least, given we're talking about bows, slings and javelins as the primary ranged weapons most of the time. From a Middle-earth perspective, they could very well use some kind of magic if they really want to hide themselves. :V

    So, using greens and browns should probably be viewed as less of a military necessity and more of a fashion statement, opening up justification for them to use all kinds of colors.
    Stealth is also not just about conforming with the primary colours of your environment, it's also about breaking up patterns (e.g. through bold stripes), and movement (or lack thereof). Somtimes, even a brightly coloured bird can be hard to spot in the trees.
    Alternatively, you could argue (when in favour of brighter colours or more original patterns) that the unit skins on the battlemap represent fighting gear rather than travelling or scouting clothes. Although that would raise the question why some units are wearing hoods...

  13. #133

    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    Dorwinion is less populated this time around, and in rebel hands at mod start. (I've gotten rid of Rathwin to cut down on settlement density slightly.) With the events of the Hobbit still quite a few centuries in the future, there's theoretically still time for a Mannish presence in Dorwinion to emerge. How much continuity we can imagine between Wainriders' depiction of the region and the DoM depiction is tricky to say. In DoM, we conceived of Dorwinion as echoing Gondorian influence, potentially (but not necessarily!) even tracing lineage all the way back to the earlier Third Age expansions of Gondor prior to the Wainriders. In that mod, Dorwinion might be thought of as a kind of remnant province of Gondor, cut off and isolated for many hundreds of years.

    I'm not sure just what kind of rebel units will inhabit Belegant in Wainriders. If we want to emphasize that continuity with DoM, we might go with some vaguely Gondorian-style units, but I'm not sure if the Avari will have much to do with them.

    The Hobbit reference doesn't indicate what type of people lived in Dorwinion - Men or Elves. But even by including the Avari as a playable faction and not including a playable Mannish Dorwinion we're not necessarily indicating that Dorwinion wasn't ruled by Men. It just could be the case that the Mannish enclave in this period wasn't particularly important.
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  14. #134
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Wainriders Official Announcement and Faction Previews

    The new arrangement of levy units for Wainriders hasn't been finalized yet, there are quite a lot of changes from DoM that are required to make it lore approriate and of course we are always looking at options that enhance gameplay and worldbuilding and whatnot. It seems highly appropriate to me that Doriwinion become a unique AOR area (much like Parchereb or the Lossoth regions) to reflect it's potentially unique identity.

    There are also some mercs in the region that reflect the idea of trade up and down the Celduin (and further afield), so it will potentially be quite an interesting corner of Middle-earth (until the Wainriders burn everything to the ground of course ).

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