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Thread: Elven starting tips

  1. #1
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    Default Elven starting tips

    Hello, I’ve been playing this mod for years (and am very grateful for the time and effort the modders have put into it), but I’ve always had problems with the Elven economy, if I try a more lore friendly start, maintaining my homelands and fiefs, I find the lack of map control ultimately leads to settlements being picked off by so stacks from multiple factions, if I attempt a blitz of Eriador, the lack of finances combined with the slowness of building up outlands results in me holding unproductive territory that is too difficult to keep. I’ve had more success uniting the greenwood and Lórien, yet still end up with the same issues of little money, unhappy outlands and vulnerable fieflands which normally results in a large stack from dale/adunabar/Rohan picking me apart.

    Does it help to not attack the independent people’s in an effort to boost trade?

    What strategy do people use over those crucial early turns?
    Aymez Loyaulté

  2. #2

    Default Re: Elven starting tips

    I think most people use Glorfindel to take Lune, and then move him east to pick off other targets. In the only successful Elven campaign I've had so far (and this happened on the most recent patch, 3.4), I took Lune, started building up the other settlements (this is complicated. Look for the ones with the best income), and made for Rivendell as straight as possible. I also eventually took Eastern and Western Hollin (IIRC I bought them off Tharbad), and Lastbridge and Sarnford. In the East, I also took some rebel settlements, IIRC Andlang and Langwyke, but only after a period of consolidation to avoid overextension and attacks by other factions.
    Taking Rivendell is important because a) it makes a good place for a capital, b) you'll get to (re-)train Elven units, including some of your most powerful ones, there, and c) most importantly, rebuilding the library of Elrond grants you a global law boost, curbing corruption everywhere.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Elven starting tips

    The Elven campaign is horribly broken in many ways, and I wouldn't even recommend playing it without introducing a few of your own modifications.

    For one, the Elven units are far, far too large for their meager populations and income. Go into the unit roster files, and create duplicate units of the standard ones, but with half or a third the default number of soldiers and proportionally reduced upkeep/recruitment costs (so you get the same cost/soldier) or perhaps with a slight cost discount to balance them still taking the same training time... (smaller units would also, realistically, cost very slightly less to recruit/pay, due to needing fewer ranks of officers to control them)

    The Elves also start out horribly, unrealistically poor considering what amazing craftsmen they are supposed to be and how their realms have endured for centuries- with individual craft experts also having centuries to master their skills.

    I would suggest either modding in a new building for the Elves, slightly increasing their trade income ("Elven Craftsmen" or similar), using image files from other buildings and writing a custom description, I suppose; or at least increasing their starting treasury by a bit.

    I have also suggested these, and other changes that are harder to do on an individual basis (like adding a couple more tiny rebel settlements on the Western/Eastern eaves of the Greenwood to represent the Mannish migration and development supposed to be occurring in these regions in the Fourth Age) on a separate "Suggestion" post. Lord willing that it actually gets seen and acted upon...

    But for your own Elven playthroughs, I would suggest at least doing what you can of these changes yourself. Possibly contact the devs and see if they are interested in your work later (like the re-sized units, which would be a simple matter of copy-pasting into the units files if you made them and sent them to the devs...)

  4. #4

    Default Re: Elven starting tips

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Northstar View Post
    The Elven campaign is horribly broken in many ways, and I wouldn't even recommend playing it without introducing a few of your own modifications.

    For one, the Elven units are far, far too large for their meager populations and income. Go into the unit roster files, and create duplicate units of the standard ones, but with half or a third the default number of soldiers and proportionally reduced upkeep/recruitment costs (so you get the same cost/soldier) or perhaps with a slight cost discount to balance them still taking the same training time... (smaller units would also, realistically, cost very slightly less to recruit/pay, due to needing fewer ranks of officers to control them)

    The Elves also start out horribly, unrealistically poor considering what amazing craftsmen they are supposed to be and how their realms have endured for centuries- with individual craft experts also having centuries to master their skills.

    I would suggest either modding in a new building for the Elves, slightly increasing their trade income ("Elven Craftsmen" or similar), using image files from other buildings and writing a custom description, I suppose; or at least increasing their starting treasury by a bit.

    I have also suggested these, and other changes that are harder to do on an individual basis (like adding a couple more tiny rebel settlements on the Western/Eastern eaves of the Greenwood to represent the Mannish migration and development supposed to be occurring in these regions in the Fourth Age) on a separate "Suggestion" post. Lord willing that it actually gets seen and acted upon...

    But for your own Elven playthroughs, I would suggest at least doing what you can of these changes yourself. Possibly contact the devs and see if they are interested in your work later (like the re-sized units, which would be a simple matter of copy-pasting into the units files if you made them and sent them to the devs...)
    I can't really agree that the Elves are 'horribly broken.' I think I won the last two campaigns I played. The units drain population, but it's easy to win your battles with almost no casualties so it doesn't really matter. Once you get to late campaign, in the Greenwood at least you can't actually recruit fast enough to drain your population.

    The economy isn't great, but again when your units are so good you don't have to field large armies.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Elven starting tips

    Quote Originally Posted by SnuggleBunnies View Post
    I can't really agree that the Elves are 'horribly broken.' I think I won the last two campaigns I played.
    Being horribly broken doesn't mean it's unwinnable. Not by a long shot. It means you have to resort to tactics you really shouldn't- for instance much more aggressive recruiting that the Elves should even be capable of, considering their tiny remaining populations.

    The starting Elven populations are already larger than they should be lore-wise, according to the devs. I'm inclined to agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by SnuggleBunnies View Post
    The units drain population,
    This is the biggest issue. You shouldn't even be able to recruit this heavily. Elves should have to rely more on Mercenaries and eventually, Evellyn units, to expand.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnuggleBunnies View Post
    but it's easy to win your battles with almost no casualties so it doesn't really matter. Once you get to late campaign, in the Greenwood at least you can't actually recruit fast enough to drain your population.
    Not arguing with this. At least not what I remember from earlier versions (you are playing Elves in 3.4, right? A lot of the barbarian factions got attack buffs that make them a bit more dangerous to Elves than before)- as I'm just trying 3.4 out now. However, considering how nigh-invincible Elves are, that's even more reason there should be smaller sized units available.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnuggleBunnies View Post
    The economy isn't great
    But it SHOULD be substantially better, lore-wise. The Elves are masterful craftsmen who have literal millennia to practice their craft after mastering it at the highest levels imaginable. The Elves, lore-wise, realistically (if you think of what the logical implications of such long lifespans would be on an economy), and especially from a game balance perspective, should start off with more income than they currently do.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Elven starting tips

    Agreed that Elvish pop growth is too high. I think it should be limited to .5% everywhere, with *maybe* 1% in one of the Greenwood settlements. As things stand, I only ever used Mannish units as garrisons, and occasionally 2-4 units of trash as arrow sponges, but I never relied on them.

    As to the economy, sure, lore wise. But if the campaign is already winnable with a poor economy, why make it easier? If lowering elvish pop growth meant more units would need to be fielded, then yes the economy would have to be boosted to make up for that.

    Really this is all academic though, DoM is done. Wainriders takes place earlier, so can justify the limited Elvish pop growth more than DoM can.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Elven starting tips

    Bit of a late reply, but I was on a longer break and just restarted playing recently. Good to see that there are some new units in game! Those Elvellyn Kinsmen were not available last time I played. Thanks to the whole team for this great piece of work (including Count's youtube videos)! I don't think the Elves are broken. They work perfectly fine once you understand the mechanics. My Elven strategy goes like this:


    Goals:

    • fully connected realm from Forlond to Greenwood
    • keep hobbits alive



    Keys:

    • move Glorfindel alone (to avoid infantry slowing him down)
    • hurt Adunabar as much as possible as long as Glorfindel is around, it is possible to get him to Mordor
    • 2 ways of the west sacrificial lambs (Beornings and Tharbad) help a lot to achieve stability early. Tharbad City and Oldford can supply Elvellyn units relatively quickly
    • in the early game you need all mercenaries that you can get for garrison duties



    Turn 1 and 2:

    • move capital to Mithlond, gradually move it east later as public order during your conquests demands, eventually ending up in Rivendell.
    • do not build anything until governors are attuned, then focus on construction discounts, population growth (gardens of the silver light) in Greenwood and Lorien, trade (where attractive) and most importantly dominion buildings in newly conquered settlements.
    • recruit 2 boats each in Forland and Harlond because they will never have population growth, disband in Mithlond for extra population. I like to keep one for ferry services because Adunabar sometimes attacks Forlond from the north.
    • recruit 2 diplomats in Mithlond and Greenwood, send to Hobbits, Dale, Dwarves in turn 2 and afterwards to Tharbad and Beornings, they all pay 500 for trade rights.
    • move Glorfindel alone towards Sarnford followed by the rest of the western army (except mariners), recruit available mercenaries and send them back for garrison duties in Lune, Forlond, Harlond. Move your spy west to team up with Glorfindel for conquering walled cities (Threeways, Lastbridge)
    • move generals from Forlond/Harlond east, one can conquer Lune on the way (where I leave mercenaries and mariners as temporary garrison). The generals will eventually govern Threeways and Lastbridge.
    • move the younger general from Greenwood with the 4 available archer units towards Oldford and later besiege it. Keep Thranduil and Treshold Troops to garrison the two cities in Greenwood.



    Turn 3 and onwards:

    • take Lune and Sarnford, then move Glorfindel further to take Threeways. I keep Elven Archers and Riders as temporary garrisons in Sarnford and one of the Forlond/Harlond Governors together with Lindon Guards as garrison for Threeways.
    • raid and destroy everything in unwalled Taurdal and Ettendale with Glorfindel, optionally gift settlements to RK, move the 2nd governor from Forlond/Harlond together with Noldor Swords towards Lastbridge. Keep Governor there.
    • take Rivendell with Glorfindel and Noldor Swords, then move Glorfindel further to take High Pass. Garrison fort with woodmen mercenaries
    • recruit one more treshold troop each in Greenwood and Mithlond because such quick expansion causes some public order issues at the corners of the empire (Lune and the smaller town in Greenwood)
    • the siege of Oldford should be almost done when Glorfindel arrives (8 turns siege time). Take the city, the general from Greenwood will become governor. Once public order is stable the archers can be sent back to Greenwood since Dale will be knocking sooner or later.
    • move Glorfindel south to take on remaining Beorning troops and Grimhold, at the same time move your Lorien generals with archers to besiege Andlang and Langwyke, wait out the sieges because dominion buildings elsewhere are still in progress.
    • move Glorfindel to Mordor and create as much chaos as possible before he departs. The loot will help a lot to upgrade your towns. Send available mercenaries from Rhovanion to Langwyke
    • Tharbad might have besieged Threeways by now but doesn´t stand a chance against your general and Lindon Guards. You can start harrassing them with your general around their capital and eventually take it. Leave the 2 eastern settlements to Tharbad as buffer against Dunland.
    • thanks to expanding quickly, Thranduil should already have adopted 3 or 4 stepbrothers for Legolas. Bring one to Tharbad taking Hollin on the way, another one to Langwyke to help guarding the southeastern border, keep one in Greenwood to be prepared for Thranduils departure and one in Rivendell to ensure less costly upgrading of the city.



    Mid Game:
    The situation should be quite stable now. At this point i am basically just upgrading my cities and waiting for Adunabar to take Annuminas, so I can eventually grab it from them, as well as Fornost, Bree, Taurdal and Amon Sul. I tend to gift the northernmost cities in Eriador to the dwarves. When Dale attacks I also tend to give most of their cities to the dwarves as a buffer and keep the Esgaroth wine supply for myself.


    End Game:
    This goes beyond victory conditions, but ideas are a great naval invasion in Gondor when the RK has fallen and conquering every wine producing region on the map.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Elven starting tips

    Little update on my current run...

    I wonder how long was Glorfindel supposed to stay again? I'm in year 380, so about 50 turns in and he is still around. Could it be that with a quick and aggressive expansion family members are less likely to depart to compensate for the amount of settlements? As far as I know the more settlements you have, the more likely it is to get new family members, so maybe the same applies to survival of existing FMs?

    Anyways, this is my coolest run ever with the Elves. Basically followed the steps from my last post and moved Glorfindel to Mordor and surrounding areas to restore order. Ithilien and Arnorien were given back to the RK, Aldburg was given back to Rohan, Barad Eden was raided twice and given to the RK. When entering the Nurn area I got seriously worried that I create myself an RK problem when beating up Adunabar much further. So I decided to avoid destroying them entirely, leaving their major settlement north of the sea of Nurn alone (their only starting settlement i didn't raid) and taking the southern route. The 2 settlements on the west side of Nurn I still gifted to RK, but then I stopped and let Adunabar conquer their easternmost settlements back.

    Well, so there was the end of Mordor and Glorfindel was still going, so what next? Harad hadn't made any significant advances and was struggling with Far Harad and Harondor, so I left them alone. Rhun however was going strong and put a lot of pressure on Khand. So they were the next raiding target. Starting with Muldin, Glorfindel moved north to continue his destructive path. Some turns later after taking Tham I got a new family member spawning there. Turns out Glorfindel had time to make a son while butchering cultists and this son also had the true seer trait. It's a long way from Tham to Ost-in-Edhil, but my new Noldor general is on his way to start this exciting rebuilding project, currently somewhere in Rhovanion. Glorfindel moved further north and raided all Rhun settlements to Gwaithring. So now again, what next? Well...

    Possible next steps were hurting North Rhun and Dorwinion, but they still keep Dale (which hasn't attacked me yet) honest in the east, so I left them alone. The alliance between Dale and the Dwarves also has been broken, so my next step is to work on a friendship with my non-mannish associates. Glorfindel is about to conquer those ork settlements in the far north and gifting everything to the dwarves. In case Dale attacks me in the meantime he will take a detour south to smash them. I'm curious how long his run still continues

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