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Thread: DEI Naval Combat Guide

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    Demosthenes26's Avatar Libertus
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    Default DEI Naval Combat Guide

    This guide is intended to help players with naval combat – both in avoiding bugs and using effective tactics. A lot of players have avoided naval combat since (particularly in vanilla) it tended to be a buggy, impossible to control mess. Since I reworked Naval combat for the latest DEI update, I figured it would be helpful to write a guide to how it works. The changes I made to naval combat were designed both to make it more historically accurate and to make bugs more avoidable. Some bugs are just too hardcoded to mod out, but a knowledge of how the ship types work together as a combined arms system, historical tactics, and some tricks for reducing buginess should make naval combat much smoother for any player.

    Overview/Historical Basis of the Naval Update:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I based my changes to naval combat largely on the book Age of Titans: The Rise and Fall of the Great Hellenistic Navies
    https://www.amazon.com/Age-Titans-He.../dp/019538864X

    The Author William Murray (who led excavations of the victory monument for actium-which held rams from captured Antonian/Ptolemaic warships- one of the best archeological sources from which to establish the size and power of various sizes of Hellenistic warships) re-examined a lot of primary sources and disproved some common assumptions in understanding Hellenistic naval warfare, as well as analyzing some sources that haven't received much attention like Philo of Byzantium.

    The big one is that despite medium/large ships that defined this age being less maneuverable than triremes, they were designed to excel at (frontal) ramming. There was a long-standing assumption that everything larger than a trireme was designed for mainly boarding and artillery, and that romans somehow surprised everyone who had designed their ships for several hundred years primarily for boarding by boarding a lot....accounts and actual recorded losses to sinking vs capture at battles such as Chios, Salamis in Cyprus, Side, and Myonessus indicate that ramming was the primary tactic, oftentimes even for the romans. Boarding and artillery certainly played important roles in wearing down the enemy and capturing battered ships, but rams remained the primary weapon. Murray wrote a paper before the book that summarizes the argument well:
    https://www.academia.edu/3365902/Pol..._Naval_Warfare

    There are particularly helpful appendices in the book on the recorded performance of each size of ship in different battles from ancient writers, which I've used to balance the speed/ramming/acceleration/strength/maneuverability of all the ramming ship types.

    In order to keep combat more manageable than vanilla, I’ve kept the reduced base speeds in DEI (though some ships have speed adjustments relative to others). However, ramming speeds, acceleration, and base ramming damage have been increased to make ramming more effective. This limits the number of stuck vessels both because ships can be sunk in fewer attacks and ramming attacks happen quickly, and enables more decisive maneuvers. Historically it seems that 1-2 rams could often sink (or critically damage and knock out of combat) ships, and I carefully based damage on accounts of one ship type sinking another from those appendices.

    General Tactics

    In the classical era, triremes would sail through the enemy formation and despite attacking from the front, would avoid ram-ram contact and instead would try to outmaneuver/juke the enemy triremes to ram them in the side, as this was weaker than the bow and there was less chance of damaging one's own vessel. (diekplous ramming)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Alternatively, they could flank them en masse (periplous ramming).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Usually these tactics favored the most skilled crews (like the Athenians or Rhodians), and ramming directly head on (antiproiros ramming)was considered a tactic for the unskilled or desperate. That is until the Sicilian expedition, where the Syracusans reinforced their bows and beat the Athenians out of their harbor this way, and likely as a result of their success invented penteres (quinqueremes/5s) within 15 years.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    As ships got larger the focus became more on outright ramming power for attacking frontally antiproiros rather than a balance of maneuverability and ramming power to perform diekplous or periplous - though this balance was still valued for many ships, and types like the tetreres were even more suited for agility-based attacks than triremes. Below I've described ship types in their suitability for these maneuvers.


    Ship Types
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Massive Polyremes
    The ultimate extreme of this trend was truly massive polyremes (many–oared: a general term for the ships larger than triremes) which in a few cases may have approached modern aircraft carriers in scale-with hundreds or even thousands of rowers. These were definitely unwieldy in battle, and likely intended specifically for mounting artillery and equipment for coastal sieges and defending against coastal sieges. The most extreme were built by the Ptolemies, and were likely critical in their control of the coastal towns and cities of the eastern Mediterranean. None of these (18s,20s,30s, the Tessarakonteres-some of them catamarans) are ingame though, and 7s and 8s were commonly used in the main battle fleets of not just the Ptolemies but also Antigonids, Seleucids, and even Pergamon, Epirus etc. Oftentimes these merely large polyremes are lumped in with the unwieldiness of these giants, the actual sources and archeological evidence don’t really support that generalization.

    Large Polyremes – Octeres and Hepteres
    Kings of the antiproiros ram. 8s and 7s can sink a 5 or smaller with one well-placed frontal ram. Can follow up with a diekplous ram on the next ship in line, but aren't as good at this other types. Do not expect them to turn 90 degrees. The defeat of the 8s at Actium was about exploiting their sluggish acceleration and lack of maneuverability (which I have replicated) along with diseased crews, rather than an outright inability to gain speed over a stretch of water. The use of swarms of liburnians with harpax grappling throwers certainly helped make this tactic decisive. Ships from 8s down to 5s have only slight speed differences to enable fleet cohesion, and the sources indicate several large ships were known for their speed. However there are huge acceleration and turn rate differences between an 8 and a 5 - crucial for making unplanned maneuvers, flanking attacks, and re-positioning to attack a new target after the lines first clash.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Octeres (8)
    Pros
    -can sink anything w/ 1 ram
    -strongest ship type
    -can carry lots of artillery (I hope to develop this more)

    Cons
    -Very slow accel
    -slow turning, incapable of periplous.
    -vulnerable to flanking by enemy medium ships, in several ancient battles large ships were swarmed and sunk by 4s/5s. If flanked can only board or run away forward.
    -slightly slower than a 6,7

    Hepteres (7)
    -can sink anything w/ 1 ram
    -2nd strongest ship type
    -can carry lots of artillery (I hope to develop this more)
    -slightly faster than a 6, 8

    Cons
    -Very slow accel
    -slow turning, incapable of periplous.
    -vulnerable to flanking by enemy medium ships, in several ancient battles large ships were swarmed and sunk by 4s/5s. If flanked can only board or run away forward.



    Medium ships -Hexeres, Penteres, and Tetreres
    Versatile, balanced ships competent at all 3 major types of maneuver: powerful/resilient enough to ram antiproiros, agile enough to follow up with diekplous, or attack from the flanks periplous. However, there is maybe the most variation in this group: 6s are significantly better at antiproiros ramming than 4s, and vice-versa.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hexeres (6)

    Pros
    -decent ram power
    -3rd strongest ship type (about 2x a 5, and 2/3 a 7)
    -Almost as maneuverable as a 5, while significantly stronger

    Cons
    -slightly slower than a 7 (shorter, length + power = speed for ships of all eras), and slower than a 5 (rowing layout requires a fuller hull shape)
    -barely more ram power than a 5
    -Ideal as flagships of fleets w/ 5s as the romans used them, not economical in #s compared to 5s, and 7s/8s are better capital ships.
    - can perform periplous, but at the limits of agility to succeed.
    - Offensive power gained for expense over a 5 much less than a 7 or 8


    Penteres (5)

    Pros
    -Standard “line” battleship of the hellenistic age
    -ideal balance of speed, acceleration, durability, capacity, and ram power.
    - Capable of anything needed of a battleship, though other ships are better at specific roles,

    Cons
    -vulnerable to head-on ramming by larger ships - agile enough to have a chance avoiding
    -vulnerable to flanking by smaller ships (2.5s, 3s, 4s)- but resilient enough to often brush them off

    Tetreres (4)
    There's a reason why highly professional navies like Carthage and Rhodes used large numbers of this type - if used skilfully they can be just as effective offensively as 5s, while being cheaper and faster- but the consequences for mistakes, whether being rammed or boarded by a larger vessel, are much more dire. Ideal on the outer flanks of battlefleets or as the 'heavy' core of a squadron of lighter ships. do not attempt to ram antiproiros with large polyremes, or you will feel poseiden's wrath
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Pros
    -faster than a 5, maneuverable, quick accel
    -same ram as a 5
    -stronger, much better ram than a 3 -while slightly less agile and more expensive
    -outranges larger ships
    -ideal for the flanks, best ship for periplous.

    Cons
    -glass cannon, about 2/3 as strong as a 5, fewer marines
    -vulnerable to ramming by larger ships if no room to maneuver


    Light ships – Triremes, Trihemiolias, Biremes, Hemiolias etc
    The fastest and most maneuverable ships, with advantages in movement range and economical for patrols/pirate hunting. The largest of this group are competent at periplous flanking, while the smallest are ideal for kiting with missiles.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Triremes (3)
    Pros
    -decent ramming, maneuverable, fast

    Cons
    - 4s and 2.5s make the 3 obsolete, were rare in Hellenistic age
    -less ramming power/strength than a 4 with a small-ish price difference
    -not as fast/agile as a 2.5 with same ramming power and more expensive to build/operate

    Trihemiolias (2.5)
    Pros
    -Fastest speed, highly maneuverable, quick accel
    -ram can sink small craft, do decent damage to larger ships in a support role
    -missile crews and efficient rowing system make this an affordable/fast warship for scouting, patrol and pirate hunting
    -longest movement range

    Cons
    -weakest hp & ram of the flanking warships, at disadvantage if against 4s in same role, rely on agility

    Biremes (2)

    Pros
    -cheap
    -better ram than 1.5

    Cons
    -slowest small ship
    -not worth the costs compared to 1.5s, 2.5s

    Hemiolias (1.5)


    Pros
    -very cheap
    -Fastest speed
    -highly maneuverable, quick to accelerate
    -strategically valuable for cheaply raiding
    -longest movement range
    -Can harrass medium/large ships with hit/run missile attacks in #s

    Cons
    -sunk if hit
    -low ram damage
    -screwed in boarding





    Micro and Avoiding Bugs
    - When playing as hellenics/carthage/rome etc – always always ram first, instead of boarding. Be sure that ramming and melee mode are selected before the battle starts.
    I often find it helpful to group ships by type, as this allows for turning and attacks to be coordinated at the same speed/turn rate. Though this may mean several groups make up the main battle line.

    - The larger the ship, the more powerful the ram.

    - Ramming an enemy ship with two of the same type will almost always result in a kill. Granted, there are some situations where you need to take a less aggressive approach, but this is handy trick.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    - The AI can successfully re-ram without having to reissue attack orders like you do. Only the gods know why CA couldn’t make this work consistently for the player too. But it is helpful to use strategies like the 2-1 ramming so that (at least in that area of the battle) you always have some ships that are on their first attack order on an enemy ship. The first attack order is important because it tends to go through, it is follow up rams and rams against ships in boarding bug out and are cancelled. This can be because the attacking ship is still targeting a sinking ship. Hold down spacebar to see if there is a red line going to a wreck and only give a new attack order once it has gone away. Following this should significantly reduce attack order bugs. If you really need to sink a ship now I find that mashing attack until the ram hits works, but this needs sustained attention – so I try not to do it unless my flagship is losing boarding etc.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Fleet Battle Tactics
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Outlined below are some suggestions on how to best array your fleet in several types of situations.
    To ground these tactics in a historical account, here is a link to an account of the battle of Chios in 201 BC (Antigonid Macedon vs Pergamon and Rhodes) This is the most extensive account of a Hellenistic naval battle I have come across, and also conveniently illustrates the combined arms approach to naval warfare.
    https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2009/0...ition-command/

    Matched Fleets of Large/Medium Ships
    Big ships in center for antiproiros rams, medium ships on flanks and behind for both antiproiros and diekplous ramming, light ships on extreme flanks for periplous ramming
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Do not use light ships (triremes and lower) to protect the flanks of individual big ships in the center after the initial ram unless you have no other options/are prepared to sacrifice them to protect the larger ships (Philip V did something like this at chios, using swarms of hemiolias among his big ships – the medium rhodian ships sank the swarms and a few big ships, but the missiles and obstruction caused by them drove many off)
    light ships can also act independently if there is a reinforcing squadron from another direction. (and they are fast enough they might return to the main battle in time to play a role)

    Antiproiros Advantage, Agility Disadvantage
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Since the AI generally rams frontally, this type of battle is usually only challenging if you have a significant disadvantage in numbers. Attack quickly and directly before the enemy can maneuver around your ships, concentrate your forces and keep them tight to minimize individual flanking- individual and group protection from flanking of large ships is critical. Even if the enemy disperses somewhat, aim to strike decisive blows to the groups of enemy ships, and use what medium ships you have to screen the largest ones as they turn to attack another group.
    If you have a large ship that is going to be hit from the flank, sail ahead (even if there are no more targets in front) and don’t try to turn to meet the attack – it should take the damage and preventing the enemy from following up with 2nd,3rd,4th rams etc (the AI is good at this) is critical to survival. Often another ship or wreck can distract/block the pursuer.

    Agility Advantage, Antiproiros Disadvantage
    Two main strategies

    1. Maximize Periplous attacks by splitting your forces into at least two squadrons in files (the wedge formation can help with this). Place them at each flank of the deployment zone, and when the battle starts sail ahead/outward to draw the enemy squadron apart. Then, use your superior acceleration and turning to turn in from both flanks simultaneously, and catch the enemy forces on the sides before they can fully turn to meet you. Be sure to time this so that you are close enough to strike before they can turn, but far enough to draw them apart. I like to deploy my ships in double files in these attacks so the ship in the outer file can follow up the attack on the same target without fouling oars.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    As you can see in the screens, my right hand squadron was too far out and this delayed their attack on most of the enemy. Try to ram large enemy ships with several of your medium/small ones or else they will just tank the hit and come for you – though if you have a chance to score a hit and get by before another enemy can strike, take it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    2. Maximize Diekplous attacks by deploying in a central (but loose) double line, ideally towards the rear of the deployment zone. I like to group the ships in pairs with a heavier one in front and lighter in rear, with wedge formation to put them in individual columns. Let the enemy come towards you and target your loosely spaced ships fanning outwards. This can be helped sometimes by targeting an enemy ship you want to draw out - but don’t follow through if they can ram you frontally. At the critical moment (a bit of custom battle practice helps learning this) target enemy ships that are adjacent in their now exposed flanks (not necessarily the closest ships, but the ones side on - you have the agility advantage) and ram them with several of your own. This will mean letting some enemy ships through, but since they are larger and slower to turn, they can’t reach you for now. But you sink the ships you hit. Even here I like to concentrate on the flanks of the line to avoid the most powerful rams in the center. Then you continue as fast as possible through any 2nd/3rd line or towards the center, trying to maintain some space from enemy ships.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    As your ships come through have them turn around at the end and form new battle lines. You should now outnumber the enemy and have more rams in position to strike – use your organized groups to crush the remnants of their fleet.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Matched fleets of Medium/Small Ships
    Really any tactic can be used here – the advantages are all relative. In a battle including tetreres, triremes, trihemiolias, and hemiolas, the tetreres would be most likely to be used antiproiros, even though they are prime flankers in a battle with larger ships. Hemiolias/lembos are a bit unique in that they are so bad at ramming that apart from finishing off badly damaged ships they aren’t very useful. But they should be cheap enough that they can be used in numbers in loose formations where they can then surround and board individual medium ships – and/or kite them with missiles.
    Last edited by Demosthenes26; August 21, 2020 at 02:00 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    Superb job Demosthenes. Great stuff.

    You've also identified the main problem of naval battles in Rome 2: the buggy subsequent ram orders. While your mod goes a long way to address this, it still punishes 1-on-1 ram battles. Alas.

  3. #3
    Demosthenes26's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilius View Post
    Superb job Demosthenes. Great stuff.

    You've also identified the main problem of naval battles in Rome 2: the buggy subsequent ram orders. While your mod goes a long way to address this, it still punishes 1-on-1 ram battles. Alas.
    Thanks, glad you like the changes and the guide! Be sure to give the tips under Micro and Avoiding Bugs a try, they reduce the buggy subsequent ram orders a lot

  4. #4
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    btw, are you planning/working on some fixes?
    I have no idea about naval combat, just asking if you are still working on it

  5. #5
    L.ANNIVS's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    Demosthenes26!!!

    This is a Definitive Ancient Naval Combat Guide!

  6. #6

    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    Wasn't aware that the buggy naval ramming orders could potentially be resolved by checking to see if the sinking ship was still noted as the target via the red line - will definitely see if that helps me in future naval battles, thanks!

  7. #7

    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    While by no means ideal, you can also fight naval battles with barbarian factions. This requires real skill and tenacity bordering on masochism. I will break this down by ship types available:

    Gauls/Celts/Iberians/Britons -

    These factions have the best non-civilized naval option: slinger ships. Hire them en masse and use them like horse archers. I group them in units of four and focus fire with them on individual targets. Try not to shoot enemy ships from directly in front or directly astern, the bows and stern may block some of your shots. Bonuses to ammunition amount, missile range, and speed are very useful. If you run out of ammo, withdraw your ships, take the defeat, and hopefully live to fight another day.

    Germans -
    The Germans undoubtedly have the worst naval option: javelin ships. Nonetheless, resistance is not futile. A future DeI patch should move the assault ships carrying the Hildisvini to Third Class (this makes them much more useable). Recruit an even mix of assault ships and javelin ships. Use your assault ships to grapple with the enemy ship. If you time your burst of speed right, you can avoid being rammed by the enemy's first wave. Then accelerate your javelin ships parellel with the grappled ships and start throwing missiles. This combination is usually enough to overwhelm even better quality ships as long as you have a significant numbers advantage.
    Discord handle Q_Sertorius #0164

  8. #8

    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    Can someone provide some tips on how to board enemy ships? Can multiple ships board one ship? Also sometimes it feels like the units don't board even though I have given the board command. The ship will just sail next to enemy ship and stay there. Also even when my units are boarding enemy ship, they do it in single file one by one and just get destroyed.

  9. #9

    Default Re: DEI Naval Combat Guide

    Multiple ships can board an enemy ship. As with any other aspects of naval combat, if your ship misses tackle on the enemy ship, you have to give a new movement order before giving a new attack order. As with other combat, the best results are obtained by tackling an enemy ship with one or two of your own, then flanking with missile ships and shooting them in the flanks.
    Discord handle Q_Sertorius #0164

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