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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #161

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No amount of inhabitation can justify Greek claims to the south of Kastellorizo. It's physically not possible.
    So, what justifies turkish claims, then?

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  2. #162

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    So, what justifies turkish claims, then?
    It's the relevant coastline of the Antalya and partially Muğla provinces. Assigning vast majority of that region to Kastellorizo violates the principal of equity of UNCLOS 1982.
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  3. #163

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's the relevant coastline of the Antalya and partially Muğla provinces. Assigning vast majority of that region to Kastellorizo violates the principal of equity of UNCLOS 1982.


    Apparently not, since the Canary islands have their full EEZ vs Morocco.


    Same case as Kastellorizo in all aspects. Tough luck for Turkey.

    Plus, if the UNCLOS is in Turkey's favour, then why hasn't Turkey signed the UNCLOS?

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  4. #164

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Apparently not, since the Canary islands have their full EEZ vs Morocco.



    Same case as Kastellorizo in all aspects. Tough luck for Turkey.

    Plus, if the UNCLOS is in Turkey's favour, then why hasn't Turkey signed the UNCLOS?
    Care to tell me why you're choosing to pick the map for Spain/Morocco which we know little about when you had the case of Colombia and Nicaragua with an ICJ judgment?

    Turkey didn't sign the convention since it's objections were left unanswered during the convention.
    The Armenian Issue
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  5. #165

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Turkey didn't sign the convention since it's objections were left unanswered during the convention.
    What did Turkey object to?

  6. #166

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What did Turkey object to?
    The objection was about having no clear guidelines on determining the equitable solutions when islands were involved. As most states didn't have any islands or neighbors with islands, as well as the convention going on for a long time, they couldn't care less.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  7. #167

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The objection was about having no clear guidelines on determining the equitable solutions when islands were involved.
    What was the guideline?

  8. #168

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Care to tell me why you're choosing to pick the map for Spain/Morocco which we know little about when you had the case of Colombia and Nicaragua with an ICJ judgment?

    Turkey didn't sign the convention since it's objections were left unanswered during the convention.
    I can reverse the question and ask you why we should choose the case of Colombia. And we can go like this forever.

    The fact that Turkey didn't sign the UNCLOS clearly demonstrates that a solution via the the UNCLOS is NOT to the best interests of Turkey. Thus your claim on the UNCLOS principles would rather have Turkey losing, unless you know things that Turkish officials don't.
    Turkish officials only speak of their country's alleged military might, with idiotic and warmongering statements such as attacking the French carrier, downing Greek aircraft and killing Greek pilots, or Greece being a guinea pig that hides behind other countries, or that other countries push forward (how these two can occur at the same time is beyond me, but apparently it works for the population of Turkey).

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  9. #169
    karaislam's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    these maps can be helpful to understand the situation better


  10. #170

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by karaislam View Post
    these maps can be helpful to understand the situation better


    Yes, we are well aware that the turkish propaganda has made some idiotic claims and statements, but this is beyond ridiculous. Explain to us, how exactly the application of the UNCLOS (which is what Greece is doing) would create the maps you are showing us, if you please. Bear in mind, that the US islands DO, IN FACT, have the FULL EEZ of 200 nm, with the exceptions of foreign coasts being in the way of those 200 nm, in which case the median like is chosen, just like the Greeks do in Kastelorizzo. Now, I am waiting for you to explain your position. How did the TRT come up with the "greek style EEZ" and the "If the UK made a similar claim" EEZ?
    Last edited by ioannis76; September 07, 2020 at 10:44 AM.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  11. #171

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What was the guideline?
    200 nm, equidistant line for facing coastlines and that all that should be equitable.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    I can reverse the question and ask you why we should choose the case of Colombia. And we can go like this forever.

    The fact that Turkey didn't sign the UNCLOS clearly demonstrates that a solution via the the UNCLOS is NOT to the best interests of Turkey. Thus your claim on the UNCLOS principles would rather have Turkey losing, unless you know things that Turkish officials don't.
    Turkish officials only speak of their country's alleged military might, with idiotic and warmongering statements such as attacking the French carrier, downing Greek aircraft and killing Greek pilots, or Greece being a guinea pig that hides behind other countries, or that other countries push forward (how these two can occur at the same time is beyond me, but apparently it works for the population of Turkey).
    Nope, we wouldn't go like this forever. The case I presented has an ICJ judgment. On the other hand, the case you presented is ambiguous as there is no delimitation agreement between the two states. For all intents and purposes you're presenting the Spanish point of view. Trying to shift focus to Turkey not signing the UNCLOS when we're discussing the issue from an UNCLOS perspective per Greek claims is merely a deflection.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  12. #172

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Trying to shift focus to Turkey not signing the UNCLOS when we're discussing the issue from an UNCLOS perspective per Greek claims is merely a deflection.

    A deflection? You are evoking a law that Turkey refuses to sign, while at the same time claiming that said law is to the benefit of Turkey. And you can come here, straight faced and claim that it is a deflection to question why it is that Turkey refuses to sign said law?
    BTW, the Canary islands' EEZ is not disputed:
    https://www.marineregions.org/gazett...etails&id=8364

    Furthermore, since when does Turkey have the longest coastline in the med?

    "Our coastline faces Libya's coastline," Erdogan said. "That's what made this deal possible." "And of course we have the longest coastline in the East Mediterranean and that gives us other capabilities," he added.
    https://www.ekathimerini.com/248626/...tinental-shelf
    Last edited by ioannis76; September 07, 2020 at 11:05 AM.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  13. #173

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post

    A deflection? You are evoking a law that Turkey refuses to sign, while at the same time claiming that said law is to the benefit of Turkey. And you can come here, straight faced and claim that it is a deflection to question why it is that Turkey refuses to sign said law?
    You're still doing it. It's Greek position to base its claim on UNCLOS. So, its only logical to look at UNCLOS to determine whether that position has any merit.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  14. #174

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    200 nm, equidistant line for facing coastlines and that all that should be equitable.
    What is not clear about 200nm with equidistant line for facing coasts?

  15. #175

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You're still doing it. It's Greek position to base its claim on UNCLOS. So, its only logical to look at UNCLOS to determine whether that position has any merit.
    Yes, and the UNCLOS is very clear that islands get the full eez off 200 nm, unless there is another coastline, in which case the median line is calculated. Thus the Greek map.
    How does Turkey get her map, with the Libyan coast being the other side, circumventing Crete, Kastelorizzo, Rhodes, Karpathos (and maybe even more islands)?

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  16. #176

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What is not clear about 200nm with equidistant line for facing coasts?
    It creates a quite inequitable situation in some cases. Hence, ICJ often adjusts islands' EEZs to less than what countries claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Yes, and the UNCLOS is very clear that islands get the full eez off 200 nm, unless there is another coastline, in which case the median line is calculated. Thus the Greek map.
    How does Turkey get her map, with the Libyan coast being the other side, circumventing Crete, Kastelorizzo, Rhodes, Karpathos (and maybe even more islands)?
    Except in many real world cases that's not the cases. Islands often do not get 100% of the EEZ your position claims.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  17. #177

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It creates a quite inequitable situation in some cases. Hence, ICJ often adjusts islands' EEZs to less than what countries claim.




    Except in many real world cases that's not the cases. Islands often do not get 100% of the EEZ your position claims.
    The map presented by Greece is in accordance to the UNCLOS. All other claims that Turkey makes are made out of her belly. That's the bottom line.
    The EEZ of Greece in the region is not formed by just Kastelorizzo, but by more islands, such as Crete, Rhodes, Karpathos, etc, all inhabited. Turkey just goes out and says that the islands don't get any EEZ at all, thus the Turkey-Sarraj map.
    There is no court ruling on the issue, and as long as there isn't one, what we DO have from a legal side is the UNCLOS, which is in favour of Greece, thus the turkish denial to sing the UNCLOS.
    The turkish side seems to have a very bad relation with the International Court, as it failed to be present when Greece unilaterally appealed to the court on the issue of the continental shelf in 1974.

    https://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-r...D-01-00-EN.pdf

    Here are the Greek positions:
    https://www.mfa.gr/en/issues-of-gree...tal-shelf.html

    No UNCLOS, and no International court for Turkey, then. Thus the war threat barrage by the turkish side, against everyone, including France and many other countries.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  18. #178

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It creates a quite inequitable situation in some cases. Hence, ICJ often adjusts islands' EEZs to less than what countries claim.
    The question I asked is what is not clear about 200nm with equidistant line for facing coasts.

  19. #179
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by karaislam View Post
    these maps can be helpful to understand the situation better
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    What a hilariously bad map. Talk about hyperbole.

  20. #180

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    The map presented by Greece is in accordance to the UNCLOS. All other claims that Turkey makes are made out of her belly. That's the bottom line.
    The EEZ of Greece in the region is not formed by just Kastelorizzo, but by more islands, such as Crete, Rhodes, Karpathos, etc, all inhabited. Turkey just goes out and says that the islands don't get any EEZ at all, thus the Turkey-Sarraj map.
    There is no court ruling on the issue, and as long as there isn't one, what we DO have from a legal side is the UNCLOS, which is in favour of Greece, thus the turkish denial to sing the UNCLOS.
    The turkish side seems to have a very bad relation with the International Court, as it failed to be present when Greece unilaterally appealed to the court on the issue of the continental shelf in 1974.

    https://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-r...D-01-00-EN.pdf

    Here are the Greek positions:
    https://www.mfa.gr/en/issues-of-gree...tal-shelf.html

    No UNCLOS, and no International court for Turkey, then. Thus the war threat barrage by the turkish side, against everyone, including France and many other countries.
    The map represented by Greece violates the equity principle of UNCLOS. So, no, it's not in accordance with that. Turkish claims are based on UNCLOS and international practice as I have shown. Sure, there are other Greek landmasses that play into account, however, much of the area in questions solely depends on Kastellorizo. In fact, Greece needs that to connect to the Cypriot EEZ. Without it their East Med pipeline becomes extra expensive if they do not play nice with Turkey.

    It's interesting that you mention the 1976 case while forget to mention the Bern Agreement of the same year where Greece and Turkey agreed to hold talks over the issue while both had a moratorium over making any move on the water. The talks started on January 1976 and were finalized on November of the same year producing the Bern Agreement. Greece left these negotiations in 1981 and started its activities again. The court case, on the other hands, saw Greece acting unilaterally. Normally, nations go to court together after deciding the scope of the issues for the court to handle. Basically, Greece going to the court was a publicity stunt by the Greek government as talks were ongoing with Turkey and it was treated as such.

    So, what they need to do is for Greece and Turkey to decide on what issues they'll take to the court and move there together. Thats how it is done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    The question I asked is what is not clear about 200nm with equidistant line for facing coasts.
    The part where it doesn't always create an equitable solution as I indicated. Thats why ICJ often diverged from simply applying those.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; September 07, 2020 at 12:42 PM.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

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