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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #141

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    For comparison The EEZ between Spain and Morocco and the Greek Edition of it:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Spain is having like Greece far far from its Mainland islands but how it comes they don´t make these ridiculous Greek claims.

  2. #142
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    They are uninhabited, mate. If you want to find a more relevant example, go for the Canaries Islands or Zealand.

  3. #143

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    They are uninhabited, mate. If you want to find a more relevant example, go for the Canaries Islands or Zealand.
    Well we know very well when Greece started to make these Islands (Aegean) more habitable - especially after some outlook in the UN Council changed which was not really in favour of Greece

  4. #144
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well we know very well when Greece started to make these Islands (Aegean) more habitable - especially after some outlook in the UN Council changed which was not really in favour of Greece
    Can you name the islands you imply that the Greek state populated with people in the last few decades? There are ~1.2 million inhabitants in the Aegean Islands, and since 1994 there are have been talks (usually when elections are approaching) about repopulating the ~70 islands that have been abandoned by people in the last ~70 years or so, but the after each election they get scrapped.

    Unless I misinterpreted your post, and you are implying that the Greek state has no right to try and improve the life of its citizens who live in tiny, remote islets with terrible infrastructure and almost no access to essential services, which is absurd.

  5. #145
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Here is a sensible debate on the issue:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLbIhKQ7LE
    Thanks for the video dokugan. It was quite interesting. It is probably the first time I hear a Turkish expert say that "duh of course islands have an EEZ according to international law". Another point of interest was that the so-called Greek maximalist stance, is not unfounded or really as maximalist as many Turkish people want to believe. As the Turkish expert said in the video it is the result of a strict interpretation of the law, a strict one but not an invalid one. He made it clear he doesn't believe it will be how things end up after a court case/negotiation (I don't believe that either, neither did the Greek expert) but that it is a starting point for a discussion. In fact he made it clear that it is the Turkish "blue homeland" doctrine that is maximalist and unfounded. And called on Turkey to abandon it. All that from the Turkish expert on the panel. How refreshing.
    Last edited by Alastor; September 03, 2020 at 09:14 AM.

  6. #146

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well we know very well when Greece started to make these Islands (Aegean) more habitable - especially after some outlook in the UN Council changed which was not really in favour of Greece
    Judging from the level of turkish journalism and its propensity to fake news, I would like to express my doubts regarding what the turkish public actually knows.
    And What Beorn said stands. Since when does Turkey have a say in which Greek islands Greek citizens are allowed to live? I would advise Turkey to be a bit more careful with what their officials say. The Turkish President is already a world class clown (he must be the only leader who announced that his country found gas reserves and his country's currency just kept on plummeting), the turkish officials don't need to make any more fools of themselves.

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  7. #147

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    They are uninhabited, mate. If you want to find a more relevant example, go for the Canaries Islands or Zealand.
    Why can't we go for Nicaragua vs Colombia which is actually somewhat comparable to the case with Kastellorizo?
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  8. #148
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why can't we go for Nicaragua vs Colombia which is actually somewhat comparable to the case with Kastellorizo?
    Because in this case, the equity was achieved by weighting the coastline lengths of the Colombian islands facing the Nicaraguan mainland, and the Nicaraguan coastline of the mainland itself.

    The ratio was something like 10:1 for Nicaragua IIRC (resulting in a ruling significantly in its favor), whereas the ratio of the coastlines of the Dodecanese and North Aegean islands is approximately 1:1 in comparison to the Turkish coast from Enez to Kas.
    Last edited by Beorn; September 03, 2020 at 04:16 PM. Reason: syntax errors

  9. #149

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Can you name the islands you imply that the Greek state populated with people in the last few decades? There are ~1.2 million inhabitants in the Aegean Islands, and since 1994 there are have been talks (usually when elections are approaching) about repopulating the ~70 islands that have been abandoned by people in the last ~70 years or so, but the after each election they get scrapped.

    Unless I misinterpreted your post, and you are implying that the Greek state has no right to try and improve the life of its citizens who live in tiny, remote islets with terrible infrastructure and almost no access to essential services, which is absurd.
    Of course they do not have when they even not can guarantee their own sovereignty as a State over these Islands - Why do you think there have been talks since 1994 some talks to re-populate these Islands? These Islands are even limited in Size you cannot build there a complex-Industry or something that would become really economical beneficial. How many Greeks fit even own Kastelorizo? If we just divide these 1.2~ million Greeks to all Islands in the Aegean Region how many are of them really populated Islands that are really ridiculously close to Turkey? Besides that Turkey would just grant these People Citizenship without losing their Citizenship in Greece. In their rights they wouldn´t be disadvantaged.

    But the main Topic here is that Greece claims to have an much more bigger EEZ then Turkey in the eastern Mediterranean just because they are in the desilussional thinking that these Island will grant it to them:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    In this case it is obviously that Greece is not really aiming "to improve the life of its citizens who live in tiny, remote islets with terrible infrastructure and almost no access to essential services" then just to use them as an excuse. You should better ask yourself why it is not really possible to have these Lifestandards on these Islands.

  10. #150

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Because in this case, the equity was achieved by weighting the coastline lengths of the Colombian islands facing the Nicaraguan mainland, and the Nicaraguan coastline of the mainland itself.
    The ratio was something like 10:1 for Nicaragua IIRC (resulting in a ruling significantly in its favor), whereas the ratio of the coastlines of the Dodecanese and North Aegean islands is approximately 1:1 in comparison to the Turkish coast from Enez to Kas.
    By your logic they would have counted the coastline of an island Greece would have in Black Sea (hypothetically) or the Black sea coastline of Turkey in determining the EEZ of Kastellorizo. That's ridiculous. 95% of Greek islands have no relation to Kastellorizo or the small islets around it. When Eastern Mediterranean is discussed the coastlines that we would consider would belong to Kastellorizo, Rhodes, Karpathos, Kasos and partially Crete against about half the southern Turkish coastline. ICJ considers relevant coastlines. There is no basis to include Chios or Lesbos in calculations ratios for the area south of Kaş or Kastellorizo.
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  11. #151
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Sure, none of the islands in the Aegean are relevant to the EEZ South of Kastellorizo
    Actually that's not the case. Considering that it is Greece's position that Kastellorizo doesn't stand alone but is a part of an island complex with cultural and legal continuity going long back. I'm talking of course about the Dodecanese islands of which Meyisti is a part. It is in fact one of the arguments that strengthen Greece's position about the island's right to an extended EEZ.

  12. #152

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Actually that's not the case. Considering that it is Greece's position that Kastellorizo doesn't stand alone but is a part of an island complex with cultural and legal continuity going long back. I'm talking of course about the Dodecanese islands of which Meyisti is a part. It is in fact one of the arguments that strengthen Greece's position about the island's right to an extended EEZ.
    By that logic we have to take Turkish Black sea coastline into account as well to evaluate what Turkey gets in south of Turkey?
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; September 04, 2020 at 01:34 PM.
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  13. #153

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...smata-mas.html

    1:18:
    "we hope that it will not be too late when they realize that there is no power to stand against a nation that sees combat and the possible martyrdom in the end as the highest reward"

    Spoken like a true 10th century tribal warlord.


    btw, if you go into modern combat with the mentality that you need to become a "martyr", the enemy will be all to happy to oblige you, you know.
    Numbers alone, and idiotic mentality such as that the warlord describes will only get your army wiped off the face of the Earth in a hurry.

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  14. #154
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    By your logic they would have counted the coastline of an island Greece would have in Black Sea (hypothetically) or the Black sea coastline of Turkey in determining the EEZ of Kastellorizo. That's ridiculous. 95% of Greek islands have no relation to Kastellorizo or the small islets around it. When Eastern Mediterranean is discussed the coastlines that we would consider would belong to Kastellorizo, Rhodes, Karpathos, Kasos and partially Crete against about half the southern Turkish coastline. ICJ considers relevant coastlines. There is no basis to include Chios or Lesbos in calculations ratios for the area south of Kaş or Kastellorizo.
    Nope, only the opposing coastlines matter. I only mentioned groups of islands that face Turkey as an example, and how it compares with the case you mentioned as an example of the "legality" of Turkish claims.
    Turkey's problem in any potential ICJ ruling, the whole Dodecanese archipelago will be taken into consideration instead of just the island of Kastellorizo (see the Nicaragua-Colombia case that TDLS loves to cite lately), as it has been part of the archipelago historically and culturally for at least 1200 years.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 08, 2020 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Continuity.

  15. #155

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    It´s all about a slice of the pie - the side which leaves mostly his own sovereignty to others will gain more support. Turkey in this case has it´s own Company but i do not know if they go further and exploit any founded reserves on their own without lacking know-how how to exploit that natural resources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...um_Corporation

    In case of Greece mostly these companies who already got their licenses in South-Cyprus will back up - of course with the support of the States on which their own Headquarters belong:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  16. #156

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    The guy in the video ADVISES Erdogan on Security and Foreign policy matters. He claims that Turkey will hit the French carrier (Charles DeGaulle), turkish pilots will shoot down 5-6 Greek airplanes and war with Greece will ensue, and that he himself will shoot a Greek pilot between the eyes.

    https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...ea1ce99ce96%2F



    This goes a long way to show Turkish disposition BEFORE Scalps and Exocets start flying. When they flew, in Libya, blasting turkish SAM sites, Turkey "didn't know who fired them".

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  17. #157
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Turkey has been overtaken by a combination of Islamo-nationalists and warmongering Eurasianist old guard (deep state). They are all over the TVs everyday talking about military might calling Greece and Cyprus rogue states.

    I honestly can't bare hearing the TV anymore due to ridiculous amounts of nationalism.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  18. #158

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    For comparison The EEZ between Spain and Morocco and the Greek Edition of it:
    Maybe it's because the entire region used to be inhabited and governed by Greeks. Just a thought.

  19. #159

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Maybe it's because the entire region used to be inhabited and governed by Greeks. Just a thought.
    No amount of inhabitation can justify Greek claims to the south of Kastellorizo. It's physically not possible.
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  20. #160

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Turkey has been overtaken by a combination of Islamo-nationalists and warmongering Eurasianist old guard (deep state). They are all over the TVs everyday talking about military might calling Greece and Cyprus rogue states.

    I honestly can't bare hearing the TV anymore due to ridiculous amounts of nationalism.
    I am not sure one can even call THAT stuff nationalism. It's way beyond nationalism, saying that he's going to shoot a Greek pilot between the eyes is just clownism.
    And this from Yeni Safak, Erdogan's mouthpiece:

    https://www.yenisafak.com/en/columns...turkey-2047580

    ‘Fear of Turkey’ is spreading like wildfire If Turkey is back, others will go! Anti-Erdoğan sentiment has nothing to do with internal policy. The East Mediterranean belongs to Turkey!

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

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