The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

[alhoon]

This talk of Greece actively stopping Turkey from invading its islands any moment fares not much further from what Greek special forces marching in Athens and chanting about Constantinople think. It's delusional... What makes the area in question your EEZ?

How do you equate chanting about a foreign city with 20M people (double our population) with Greece trying to stop Turkey's ambitions by putting our military on the inconveniently for Turkey placed Greek islands* but mostly our connections with stronger players?

*That Erdogan is not happy that they are our islands and he has said so.

What makes the area in question our EEZ: Those tiny islands that are ours. And if 2-3 of them stopped being ours it would open up the corridors Turkey so much wants. Again, I don't think that's likely to happen but better safe than sorry.

[ioannis76]

More love from Bahceli:

Ankara, Turkey – “The status of the Twelve Islands should be re-evaluated,” said MHP Leader Devlet Bahçeli.

Leader of the MHP Bahçeli, who made assessments on twelve islands, made the following statements:

The Dodecanese issue is the bleeding wound of the Turkish nation. These islands have been taken from us unjustly, impudently and unlawfully. The status of the Dodecanese should be reconsidered. In fact, the Islands Sea problem between us and Greece is nothing more than the Twelve-Island problem taking on a new dimension.

https://turkeygazette.com/2020/08/30...-re-evaluated/

For those who don't know, the Dodecanese is the island complex that includes the (largest of the complex) island of Rhodes, as well as the island of Kastelorizo, which cuts the turkish EEZ.

Turkey must be the only country that demands the demilitarization of areas it plans to occupy Dodecanese, Sirte. I mean, really, does Turkey have such a bad view for its military capabilities?

[Nebaki]

What makes the area in question our EEZ: Those tiny islands that are ours. And if 2-3 of them stopped being ours it would open up the corridors Turkey so much wants. Again, I don't think that's likely to happen but better safe than sorry.

Can you just please share an MAP which shows the Greek EEZ? You guys signed the UNCLOS and you should better read it and regarding your claims for an EEZ in combinations with Islands like Kastellorizo (without it no doubt there wouldn´t be such a ridiculous EEZ claim) how even the East Mediterranean or all of the Mediterranean (enclosed or semi-enclosed sea) is seen under these Agreement.

Most funny thing about that Greek EEZ claim is it´s expanding until it adjoins the South Cyprus EEZ claims.

[PointOfViewGun]

How do you equate chanting about a foreign city with 20M people (double our population) with Greece trying to stop Turkey's ambitions by putting our military on the inconveniently for Turkey placed Greek islands* but mostly our connections with stronger players?

*That Erdogan is not happy that they are our islands and he has said so.

What makes the area in question our EEZ: Those tiny islands that are ours. And if 2-3 of them stopped being ours it would open up the corridors Turkey so much wants. Again, I don't think that's likely to happen but better safe than sorry.

Both are delusional since just like taking over Istanbul is a wet dream of Greek special forces, Turkey has no ambitions to take over Kastellorizo. Neither UNCLOS 1982 nor any international practice grants Kastellorizo the EEZ Greece claims over it. So, you having an island there doesn't automatically grant you a EEZ. What does?

[Nebaki]

Both are delusional since just like taking over Istanbul is a wet dream of Greek special forces, Turkey has no ambitions to take over Kastellorizo. Neither UNCLOS 1982 nor any international practice grants Kastellorizo the EEZ Greece claims over it. So, you having an island there doesn't automatically grant you a EEZ. What does?

Although Greece is a group of island countries and not a country in the middle of the sea, they defend it as if they were. They use this basis to claim that their EEZ is not starting on Mainland Greece but that Aegean Sea would have an continental shelf and with this basis of course the Aegean Sea belongs only to Greece according to the greek hypothesis.

https://www.icj-cij.org/en/case/62

This would make sense if you are being a country like New Zealand or even Japan but of course not as being Greece.

[ioannis76]

Both are delusional since just like taking over Istanbul is a wet dream of Greek special forces, Turkey has no ambitions to take over Kastellorizo. Neither UNCLOS 1982 nor any international practice grants Kastellorizo the EEZ Greece claims over it. So, you having an island there doesn't automatically grant you a EEZ. What does?

No? And what is Bahceli barking about? He is part of the Turkish government.

More love from Bahceli:

Ankara, Turkey – “The status of the Twelve Islands should be re-evaluated,” said MHP Leader Devlet Bahçeli.

Leader of the MHP Bahçeli, who made assessments on twelve islands, made the following statements:

The Dodecanese issue is the bleeding wound of the Turkish nation. These islands have been taken from us unjustly, impudently and unlawfully. The status of the Dodecanese should be reconsidered. In fact, the Islands Sea problem between us and Greece is nothing more than the Twelve-Island problem taking on a new dimension.

https://turkeygazette.com/2020/08/30...-re-evaluated/

For those who don't know, the Dodecanese is the island complex that includes the (largest of the complex) island of Rhodes, as well as the island of Kastelorizo, which cuts the turkish EEZ.

This would make sense if you are being a country like New Zealand or even Japan but of course not as being Greece.

The Law of the Sea begs to differ.

[PointOfViewGun]

No? And what is Bahceli barking about? He is part of the Turkish government.

Not necessarily. His party holds no government office. They basically want to be seen with the government to appear strong but not in the government to not be responsible. The extremism of his ideology is mostly dependent of him going old and insane and it is limited to his lifetime. If you wanna look at the future of the Turkish nationalistic right you should look at Meral Akşener.

The Law of the Sea begs to differ.

The Law of the Sea does not grant what Greece claims for Kastellorizo as it violates the principle of equity. Greece knows that it can not gain what it claims so it turns to coercion.

[PointOfViewGun]

Please. I've heard similar rhetoric from Tansu Chiller (remember her?). Was she going old and insane, too? Furthermore, I didn't hear Erdogan or anyone from AKP denouncing these statements. If anything, they've made statements along the same lines.

Do you get the Greek government to denounce every single nationalist rhetoric directed at Turks? No. Did Tansu Çiller invade any Greek territory in line with her supposed rhetoric? No. Not sure why you felt the need to turn to Tansu Çiller though.

EDIT (I just saw this): https://www.ekathimerini.com/256456/...k-a-greek-ship
I guess you are going to say that these are just lies from Die Welt, and that the Hellenic and Turkish peoples have nothing against each other, right?

Looks more like wishful thinking. Possibility of war helps Erdoğan more than actual war. It's merely a product of anti-Turkish sentiments that dissolves any regard for journalism. Somehow I need to accept that Erdoğan is a dangerous man with the army on his side where it is made up of bloodthirsty soldiers as well as Erdoğan's orders were not followed because multiple branches of the army refused to follow his orders...

The law of the sea speaks of the EEZ of islands, and it clearly states that it is the same as that of non island land masses.
Turkey is just acting as a pirate, just like they did in Cyprus, but all this has accomplished is to waken the Hellenic populace to the point that even our government has to act.

The Law of the Sea also speaks of equity. As a result, in practice, islands rarely get 100% of Greek maximalist approach claims they do. In a fair partition Greece will never get what it claims. It will get what is fair but Greece doesn't want to be fair. Greece want to choke Turkey's access to natural resources. That's what its about.

[Nebaki]

Did Tansu Çiller invade any Greek territory in line with her supposed rhetoric? No. Not sure why you felt the need to turn to Tansu Çiller though.

I guess someone is moreover referring to what happened on KARDAK:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

After that Greece one-sided claimed that their Sea territory belonging from an Greek Island is not anymore 3 nautical miles instead they increased it to 6 nautical miles if another Imia pop-ups from the Sea - of course without any Agreement with Turkey in this case.

[alhoon]

The Law of the Sea does not grant what Greece claims for Kastellorizo as it violates the principle of equity. Greece knows that it can not gain what it claims so it turns to coercion.

Not true. There's no principle of Equity there because our borders stop a few miles from your borders because those islands are Greece. We have Greeks in a Greek island a couple of km from your coasts. So we split the distance between those island shores and your shores thanks to the principle of equity that you mentioned and the rest BEHIND that line is our EEZ. That's the principle of Equity: We split what is between our shores and your shores. Not what is between what TURKEY consider our shores and Turkish shores.
The only way Turkey would have a legitimate claim is by annexing a couple of our islands or bullying us to accept their demands.
Thus, the very reasonable answer to putting soldiers in our islands to stop Turkey in case they do the unthinkable and invade. 95% they won't but for that 5% we have to be ready.

Greece knows it cannot gain what it is lawfully entitled because Turkey will fight us, so we shamefully bow down to Turkish intimidation instead of using the presence of the French here and simply declare 12 miles as we're entitled now that the French and UAE are here.
For foreigners, if we declare the 12 nautical miles in the Aegean as we're entitled by the UNCLOS (That Turkey has not accepted, I admit that, but nearly everybody else has) Turkey will automatically declare war.

What would happen if we declare 12 nm with the French and UAE here?
Probably the Foreigners would show their true colors, tell us "We didn't sign up for that" and leave us to face the music and pick up the tab (which includes lives lost and territory losses). So, we can't do that.


As such, we shamefully accept the Turkish aggression in our EEZ and we may even have to discuss our EEZ or share it with Egypt

[Nebaki]

Not true. There's no principle of Equity. Our borders stop a few miles from your borders because those islands are Greece. We have Greeks in a Greek island a couple of km from your coasts. So we split the distance between those island shores and your shores and the rest BEHIND our shores is our EEZ.

Greece knows it cannot gain what it is lawfully entitled because Turkey will fight us, so we shamefully bow down to Turkish intimidation

You are talking about Law when even the UNCLOS which you Greeks especially always loves to citiating to claim your lawfully wanted borders with Turkey is saying something more different when your own perceptions? That EEZ cannot even start from an Island when your Country is having an Mainland.

Not Turkey signed in this case the UNCLOS but of course Greece.

Thus, the very reasonable answer to putting soldiers in our islands to stop Turkey in case they do the unthinkable and invade. 95% they won't but for that 5% we have to be ready.

So that 5% is 2km away from Turkey which consists an Island Group that should always be an demilitarized Zone on which your Side (Greece) has agreed. Greece is here breaking the Rules here and not Turkey.

Greece knows it cannot gain what it is lawfully entitled because Turkey will fight us, so we shamefully bow down to Turkish intimidation instead of using the presence of the French here and simply declare 12 miles as we're entitled now that the French and UAE are here.
For foreigners, if we declare the 12 nautical miles in the Aegean as we're entitled by the UNCLOS (That Turkey has not accepted, I admit that, but nearly everybody else has) Turkey will automatically declare war.

If this is not a War Reason for Turkey then what? with declearing that 12 nautical miles you totally ignoring turkish sovereignty in the Aegean but we are talking here about the Eastern Mediterranean. For foreigners in that case Greece would even ignoring the turkish nautical miles which they accepted on Treaties - with these 12 nautical miles there wouldn´t any turkish sea territory left in the Aegean.

What would happen if we declare 12 nm with the French and UAE here?
Probably the Foreigners would show their true colors, tell us "We didn't sign up for that" and leave us to face the music and pick up the tab (which includes lives lost and territory losses). So, we can't do that.


As such, we shamefully accept the Turkish aggression in our EEZ and we may even have to discuss our EEZ or share it with Egypt

Well as i heart you already getting French support in type donations of Weapons and probably UAE will support Greece with some financial Aid - when this is not enough what do you want more from such allies? Should they really decleare War against Turkey and conquer Istanbul and rename it Konstantinopel? Of course these all will be granted later to Greece. I would love such Allies.

But please explain to me how Greece gets the Idea that they would have an EEZ Egypt. This sounds more like an EEZ that changes from day to day to something then you can really rely on it.

[PointOfViewGun]

Not true. There's no principle of Equity there because our borders stop a few miles from your borders because those islands are Greece. We have Greeks in a Greek island a couple of km from your coasts. So we split the distance between those island shores and your shores thanks to the principle of equity that you mentioned and the rest BEHIND that line is our EEZ. That's the principle of Equity: We split what is between our shores and your shores. Not what is between what TURKEY consider our shores and Turkish shores.
The only way Turkey would have a legitimate claim is by annexing a couple of our islands or bullying us to accept their demands.
Thus, the very reasonable answer to putting soldiers in our islands to stop Turkey in case they do the unthinkable and invade. 95% they won't but for that 5% we have to be ready.

Greece knows it cannot gain what it is lawfully entitled because Turkey will fight us, so we shamefully bow down to Turkish intimidation instead of using the presence of the French here and simply declare 12 miles as we're entitled now that the French and UAE are here.
For foreigners, if we declare the 12 nautical miles in the Aegean as we're entitled by the UNCLOS (That Turkey has not accepted, I admit that, but nearly everybody else has) Turkey will automatically declare war.

What would happen if we declare 12 nm with the French and UAE here?
Probably the Foreigners would show their true colors, tell us "We didn't sign up for that" and leave us to face the music and pick up the tab (which includes lives lost and territory losses). So, we can't do that.


As such, we shamefully accept the Turkish aggression in our EEZ and we may even have to discuss our EEZ or share it with Egypt

That's not how it works. I've cited a number of international cases where it's not used like that. Islands don't always get 100% of what you think they can get. Your approach is a maximalist one that is unfair and unjust. What you describe is not equity, its exploiting a piece of law in a faulty manner. Don't turn this into an other agreement ratification case. UNCLOS also requires bilateral action, not unilateral. Neither Turkey nor Greece can declare anything without agreeing on it together even if it was done strictly under UNCLOS.

12 nm territorial sea borders issue is not a subject of this thread.

[alhoon]

That's not how it works. I've cited a number of international cases where it's not used like that. Islands don't always get 100% of what you think they can get.

My point being the "not always" part. Sometimes they do. My maximalist approach is (unsurprisingly) the one that favors my country the most.
In simple terms, we have thousands of islands in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean ~> Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean is our EEZ.
Greece and most (perhaps all, I didn't count) European nations interpret the law as I do. What Turkey is saying is "that law is not a fair law!" and "In some cases, both sides agreed to not split the waters that way."
Sorry, but this is not one of those cases, it is a case where the side that had the islands didn't agree to split the EEZ.

Well, the law that declares that as a Freelancer engineer I am taxed for at least 15K Euros income per year (I make less) just because most Free Lancers tax evade is also not fair for me but I do pay the taxes. Sucks to be me when it comes to taxes, sucks to be surrounded by another country's islands in Turkey's case.
But I have to pay the taxes, and Turkey has to accept they are not entitled to any part of the hydrocarbon reserves that are between Greece, Egypt and Cyprus.

I don't pay my taxes, I will get a fine.
If Turkey keeps pretending they have the right to do surveys or exploit hydrocarbons in the area, they will get sanctions.

That's how it is.

[alhoon]

That's not how it works. I've cited a number of international cases where it's not used like that. Islands don't always get 100% of what you think they can get.

My point being the "not always" part. Sometimes they do. My maximalist approach is (unsurprisingly) the one that favors my country the most.
In simple terms, we have thousands of islands in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean ~> Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean is our EEZ.
Greece and most (perhaps all, I didn't count) European nations interpret the law as I do. What Turkey is saying is "that law is not a fair law!" and "In some cases, both sides agreed to not split the waters that way."
Sorry, but this is not one of those cases, it is a case where the side that has the islands didn't agree to split the EEZ.

Well, the law that declares that as a Freelancer engineer I am taxed for at least 15K Euros income per year (I make less) just because most Free Lancers tax evade is also not fair for me but I do pay the taxes. Sucks to be me when it comes to taxes, sucks to be surrounded by another country's islands in Turkey's case.
But I have to pay the taxes, and Turkey has to accept they are not entitled to any part of the hydrocarbon reserves that are between Greece, Egypt and Cyprus.

I don't pay my taxes, I will get a fine.
If Turkey keeps pretending they have the right to do surveys or exploit hydrocarbons in the area, they will get sanctions.

That's how it is.

[ioannis76]

Do you get the Greek government to denounce every single nationalist rhetoric directed at Turks? No. Did Tansu Çiller invade any Greek territory in line with her supposed rhetoric? No. Not sure why you felt the need to turn to Tansu Çiller though.

You very cunningly overlook the fact that Bahceli IS part of the Turkish government. Yes, if there was nationalist rhetoric directed at Turks from A POLITICAL PARTY THAT PARTICIPATES IN THE GOVERNMENT, and not some random, rogue nationalist party, and didn't see a statement denouncing it, I would conclude that this would be the official Hellenic position.

Looks more like wishful thinking. Possibility of war helps Erdoğan more than actual war. It's merely a product of anti-Turkish sentiments that dissolves any regard for journalism. Somehow I need to accept that Erdoğan is a dangerous man with the army on his side where it is made up of bloodthirsty soldiers as well as Erdoğan's orders were not followed because multiple branches of the army refused to follow his orders...

Accept what you will. I keep hearing Turkish officials, even Erdogan, saying that "Greece will pay". Here are some racist comments made by Erdogan:

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...42167850373121

And here are some more racist comments made by one of his advisors:

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...61580103913473

"Greeks are dwarfs."

[PointOfViewGun]

My point being the "not always" part. Sometimes they do. My maximalist approach is (unsurprisingly) the one that favors my country the most.
In simple terms, we have thousands of islands in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean ~> Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean is our EEZ.
Greece and most (perhaps all, I didn't count) European nations interpret the law as I do. What Turkey is saying is "that law is not a fair law!" and "In some cases, both sides agreed to not split the waters that way."
Sorry, but this is not one of those cases, it is a case where the side that has the islands didn't agree to split the EEZ.

Well, the law that declares that as a Freelancer engineer I am taxed for at least 15K Euros income per year (I make less) just because most Free Lancers tax evade is also not fair for me but I do pay the taxes. Sucks to be me when it comes to taxes, sucks to be surrounded by another country's islands in Turkey's case.
But I have to pay the taxes, and Turkey has to accept they are not entitled to any part of the hydrocarbon reserves that are between Greece, Egypt and Cyprus.

I don't pay my taxes, I will get a fine.
If Turkey keeps pretending they have the right to do surveys or exploit hydrocarbons in the area, they will get sanctions.

That's how it is.

The specific case of Kastellorizo is the one with the least amount of merit among "sometimes". We're talking about Eastern Mediterranean in this thread and no, you do not have thousands of islands there. No, Eastern Mediterranean is not your EEZ. It's delusional to claim so. What most of the European nations had in practice is not what Greece argues. Their support is not stemming from a solidarity under a sense of justice. I didn't point at bilateral agreements. I pointed at cases that ICJ gave judgment on. You are applying the law selectively, ignoring its equity principle which ICJ doesn't. Can you discuss the law without distorting its application?

Let's cover some content. Article 74 of UNCLOS:

The delimitation of the exclusive economic zone between States with opposite or adjacent coasts shall be effected by agreement on the basis of international law, as referred to in Article 38 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice, in order to achieve an equitable solution.

Even UNCLOS suggests the goal is to achieve an equitable solution. This was, in fact, Greek delegation in the UNCLOS itself that suggested to be included in the text as there was a deadlock in moving forward with the convention among different states.


Nicaragua vs Colombia is a very similar case:

Third Case-Study: The ICJ Decision in the Nicaragua v Colombia Case and the ‘Bizarre’ Final Boundary Line

Following the same concept as in the Black Sea decision, the ICJ reached in November 2012 a decision for the Nicaragua v Colombia maritime delimitation case. The decision concerned the simultaneous delimitation of the EEZ and the Continental Shelf between the two states. Nicaragua had appealed to the ICJ against Colombia with the demand to acquire the sovereignty rights over some islands allegedly claimed to be under Colombia’s sovereignty, and consequently to proportionately expand its maritime boundaries. The Court finally decided that Colombia would be the state to have total sovereignty rights over the islands in question (islands Alburquerque, East-Southeast Cays, Roncador, Serrana, Quitasueño, Serranilla and Bajo Nuevo), while at the same time it refused to give to the majority of them any EEZ or Continental Shelf rights, thus enclaving them in the EEZ of Nicaragua. However, those islands were eligible to claim territorial sea up to 12 nm [74]. Figure 11 reflects the relevant maritime area as identified by the Court. The lengths of the relevant coasts were 531 km (Nicaragua) and 65 km (Colombia), a ratio of approximately 1:8:2 in favor of Nicaragua [75].

Keep in mind San Andres island there has over 65 thousand people living on it.

[ioannis76]

The US also backs the Helleinc claims of a full EEZ for Kastelorizo:

US envoy: Kastellorizo has same continental shelf, EEZ rights as mainland

https://www.ekathimerini.com/255039/...ts-as-mainland

In fact, all US islands have their full EEZ. Wherever there is another country's coast, the median line is used. Simple as that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[ioannis76]

https://twitter.com/SETADC/status/1301169574650376194

Oktai, vice president of the turkish government, directly questions the sovereignty of the Dodecanese, saying that they were given to Greece by Italy, but Italy doesn't own the islands, and Italy doesn't have the right to give the islands as well as Kastelorizo to Greece.
And of course, the ridiculous argument, "but look at how close it is to Turkey and how far it is from Greece". It's not "far from Greece", it IS Greece.

[dogukan]

Here is a sensible debate on the issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLbIhKQ7LE

[ioannis76]

Here is a sensible debate on the issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLbIhKQ7LE

Very interesting. I would like to add that Turkey does NOT have the longest coastline between Greece and Turkey. Greece has the longest coastline. The turkish calculation overlooks the island coastline, which is completely arbitrary.
That's like me not counting the turkish coastline in the black sea, since the black sea is not part of the Med.
Your posts are a rare oasis of reasonable discussion, it seems.
Unfortunately, it's the views of "people" like this one here, that are prevalent in Turkey:
https://twitter.com/AlertChannel/sta...54030804742145

If this is the academia, one can imagine what the person in the streets thinks.
For the record, as things stand, I would prefer to give 90% of the EEZ to Egypt, or any other country, than give even 1% to Turkey. Turkey has made it perfectly clear that she is our enemy (people like me knew that a long time ago), and they must be denied any resources at any cost.