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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #101
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post



    These Islands are considered as demilitarized Zone and using some civilian transport to bring your Military from A to B in these terms is what exaclty?
    A violation of the treaty, not a war crime. Not exactly something unique to Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's not weak. It's what anyone who understands Turkish and checks the interview would understand.
    Yes, we wouldn't want to misinterpret someone purposefully and base our arguments off of that.
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; August 31, 2020 at 09:20 AM.

  2. #102

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    That is his vote count but his views are shared bu up to 50% unfortunately.
    Bahçeli and Erdoğan are in a coalition and Erdoğan often speaks through Bahçeli who's leverage on the AKP policy-making increased significantly as Erdoğan weakened.

    The ultranationalist MHP's views are a lot more prominent in Turkish statecraft and bureaucracy today. The discourse has shifted from a more Islamist tone to a more Turkish nationalist tone as MHP's weight increased within the ruling coalition.

    Bahçeli was recently also saying that the status quo in the Aegean has to be changed, and that Turkey does not fit into this current context. Meanwhile, Erdoğan was praising the concept of conquest saying we are "not imperialist conquerors, we share when we take a place - the spirit of fetih" he calls it"
    While Erdoğan's speech is disgusting, it might be considered in the Turkish domestic political context. However Bahçeli's speech is something else. He wield a lot of power over the bureaucracy and especially in the underground factions as well as the security forces. Things he declares often become the official state policy in a while.

    Saying Turkey does not threaten is naive. Turkey has been threatening from the top officials for a long time now. The discourse in the country is also quite dark, with praisal of warfare, conquests, the idea that Turkey cannot be "contained" in the Anatolia that it has been put into since Lausanne...etc. The AKP government constantly uses the term "GREATER TURKEY". These are very very very dangerous things. Turkey has definetly shifted to an expansionist discourse. While the Greek acts in the Aegean might be maximalist, we cannot deny that Turkey's expansionist discourse and actions are becoming the official ideology of the state, and is being fed to public constantly.
    What would be the correct way of handling the current EEZ issue?
    Last edited by Tureuki; August 31, 2020 at 09:27 AM.

  3. #103

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Good. Greece should militarize Kastellorizo as much as possible. It is threatened by Turkey and needs to be protected. And you know what? Turkey has no legal right to object to that militarization anyway. Turkey was not party to the treaty demilitarizing it. If the parties to that treaty have an issue with Greece remilitarizing the island, they may voice them. But none has.
    Of course Turkey was one of parties of these treaties? How Turkey cannot be part of something which is about their border?
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.

  4. #104
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    The subject of the thread is the ongoing dispute about the maritime boundaries of the Eastern Mediterranean between Greece, Turkey, Egypt and Libya. Neither Lesbos nor Lausanne nor Cyprus nor any other quarrel Ankara and Athens might have had in the span of 100 years. Please stay on topic and remember to respect the rules.

  5. #105

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I can't see that image that can only be seen if I quote.
    You may be right that we sent soldiers to that island. But if we're talking about international treaties, then how about talking about other treaties Turkey doesn't respect?
    No, I am not saying Turkey signed the treaty about the nautical miles. I am saying Turkey shows more disregard about international treaties than Greece that sends soldiers to defend Kastelorizo in case Turkey decides to "press the issue" by illegally occupying the island.
    It wouldn't be the first time they use illegal occupation to bring their neighbors to the negotiation table.

    I cannot give my personal opinion on that action from Greece or other actions I would like to see when it comes to defending Kastelorizo from a potential Attila2020 because of the Terms of Service.
    If you're referring to the picture showing the ships voyage you can easily go to MarineTraffic website to track the ship yourself.

    The response to Greek violation of international treaties shouldn't be to cite a pissing contest. We're not discussing who respects international rule less. We're discussing a specific situation involving Kastellorizo. Turkey doesn't need to occupy the island to press the issue. They've done that by conducting seismic survey in the intended region. The island has no real effect to that. Turkey didn't threaten or made any moves to occupy Kastellorizo. The island poses no military value to Turkey.
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  6. #106
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Of course Turkey was one of parties of these treaties? How Turkey cannot be part of something which is about their border?
    Just because it happens near Turkey it doesn't mean Turkey gets a say. Turkey was not a party to that treaty (Paris 1947), so as far as that treaty is concerned Turkey is a third party and can't object if one party or other deviate from that treaty. It is as simple as that.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.

  7. #107
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    ITurkey doesn't need to occupy the island to press the issue. They've done that by conducting seismic survey in the intended region. The island has no real effect to that. Turkey didn't threaten or made any moves to occupy Kastellorizo.
    I agree. But I am not sure everyone in Turkey agrees. Better safe than sorry.
    Yes, it is a small chance that Kastellorizo will be attacked or threatened. A small but not negligible chance.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    IThe island poses no military value to Turkey.
    Or so we assume.
    Better safe than sorry.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  8. #108

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I agree. But I am not sure everyone in Turkey agrees. Better safe than sorry.
    Yes, it is a small chance that Kastellorizo will be attacked or threatened. A small but not negligible chance.
    Or so we assume.
    Better safe than sorry.
    Between Turkey and Greece last time one of them invaded the other it was Greece invading Anatolia. Should Turkey preemptively occupy all of the Aegean islands just in case by the same line of thinking? You know you're in the wrong here. You know how wrong Greek claims in the area Oruç Reis conducts research in is. No need to use such excuses to defend Greece.
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  9. #109

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Just because it happens near Turkey it doesn't mean Turkey gets a say. Turkey was not a party to that treaty (Paris 1947), so as far as that treaty is concerned Turkey is a third party and can't object if one party or other deviate from that treaty. It is as simple as that.
    Turkey does not need to part of Paris Peace Treaties since it was neutral during World War II and didn´t participated on it. This does not mean that such a small Island allows or even grants Greece an EEZ or even nautical miles of Sea territory/Airspace which closes Turkey access to the Sea or even considers an expanding of Airspace which is clearly over Turkish Mainland. I call this hypocrisy at its finest, your referring to an Treaty which is more related to World War II then even to this Topic even more.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.

  10. #110
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Between Turkey and Greece last time one of them invaded the other it was Greece invading Anatolia. Should Turkey preemptively occupy all of the Aegean islands just in case by the same line of thinking? You know you're in the wrong here. You know how wrong Greek claims in the area Oruç Reis conducts research in is. No need to use such excuses to defend Greece.
    Because Greece is preemptively occupying Turkish territory? What kind of a ridiculous strawman is this? Last time? 100 years ago? How many countries has Greece invaded in the last 50 years let's say? How many has Turkey?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Turkey does not need to part of Paris Peace Treaties since it was neutral during World War II and didn´t participated on it. This does not mean that such a small Island allows or even grants Greece an EEZ or even nautical miles of Sea territory/Airspace which closes Turkey access to the Sea or even considers an expanding of Airspace which is clearly over Turkish Mainland. I call this hypocrisy at its finest, your referring to an Treaty which is more related to World War II then even to this Topic even more.
    This is the treaty that informs the demilitarized status of Kastellorizo you yourself spoke about. So what treaty should I speak of when discussing exactly that matter then? Turkey not being a party to that treaty means it has no say over whether Greece can militarize that island or not. Do you accept that finally? Let's clear that up before shifting the discussion to whether the island should have an EEZ.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.

  11. #111

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    This is the treaty that informs the demilitarized status of Kastellorizo you yourself spoke about. So what treaty should I speak of when discussing exactly that matter then? Turkey not being a party to that treaty means it has no say over whether Greece can militarize that island or not. Do you accept that finally? Let's clear that up before shifting the discussion to whether the island should have an EEZ.
    This treaty was just between Italy and Greece which fought against each in other World War II which does not change the further before arrangements between Turkey and Greece nor Italy. Even Treaty of Lausanne for example is back to referring to other arrangements between those Nations. You can´t just skip that and start argumenting on a Treaty which starts on 1947 while it ignores another Party (Turkey) with the most noticeable coast in the Region. While when Turkey was not part of these Treaty of Paris in 1947 why it should then accept Greek sovereignty over these Islands? If we just follow your Argumentation in this case then Turkey or any other Nation who is not part of Treaty can contest these Islands which aren´t being part of these Treaties?
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.

  12. #112

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    If international treaties and laws are exempt from the most basic level of logic and rationalism, what's their worth? Logically speaking, why would Turkey not be able to refer to the treaty that indicates the demilitarization of the islands if the islands are few kms away from its mainland and are spesically militarized againts Turkey?

    I thought the benefit of modern lawmaking was the flexibility and freedom of amendment in time of need. Instead, we act like there is a single unbendable true that we should all follow regardless of the differences of gazillions of different scenarios, we could as well live in a global theocracy, but oh sorry, it is only unbendable if the side that demands a change is the "enemy of the west."

    Greece and Turkey need a new treaty regarding their sea borders, the so called international law is unfit in our case.

  13. #113
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    What would be the correct way of handling the current EEZ issue?
    Honestly, I am not familiar with the technicalities of the maritime laws and the past treaties between related actors. So I prefer not to comment on it.

    I simply look into 2 things:

    Foremost, the political drivers and consequences of increased heat. (after all, we did not reach these borders with Greece yesterday, they've been there for a 100 years)

    Secondly, the common sense position, which to me seems like over-reaching claims on both sides.

    In my ideal world, Turkey would not be delving into an authoritarian, anti-democratic, warmongering, aggressive, militarized society ruled by an ideological oligarchy that is entrenching its position everyday through control of any information means possible while declaring alternative views of any opposition as an act of treason and terror.

    I personally believe that had Turkey not delved into this new national Greater Turkey discourse where it distances itself from the West with a populist argument of "WE ARE FINALLY INDEPENDENT FROM THE GAVUR" we would have been gaining far more than what we expect to extract from the seas. And this has a lot to do with the ideological views of Eurasianists and pro-Muslim Brotherhood positions (where ultranationalists thrive by feeding of off each side's nationalist ideals) rather than a pragmatic approach to politics.

    Had Turkey been a stable pro-western system that does not threaten the global system, the actors in the region and West would also not be backing Greece's claims to this extend.
    The naval officers who are quite Eurasianist wouldn't be wielding this much power over politics to make themselves relevant "heroes" of the nation, and this issue would best be handled in international courts with both sides reaching a friendly compromise by doing gests to each other so that both sides enjoy their common sea culture rather than looking at billions of dollar costing warships.

    I do appreciate the idea that Turkey should be able to act on its own, independently without getting "permissions" from the West, but Turkey uses this to serve an hostile ideological position rather than a friendly-globalist one.

    Ali Babacan himself puts this really nice: A decade ago, all the actors would come to Turkey for us the solve the problems and intermediate the things. Today we are driven by ideological hostility. We are one of the sources of the problem.

    Turkey could have gained a lot and could have given a lot to the world peace and humanity. Lets be honest, Turkey is a very capable country with its geography, its resources and demographics. For almost the past decade however, we are going for a terrible way to make use of the opportubities because of ideological passions and the desire of a certain group to cling to power to death.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  14. #114
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    This treaty was just between Italy and Greece which fought against each in other World War II which does not change the further before arrangements between Turkey and Greece nor Italy. Even Treaty of Lausanne for example is back to referring to other arrangements between those Nations. You can´t just skip that and start argumenting on a Treaty which starts on 1947 while it ignores another Party (Turkey) with the most noticeable coast in the Region. While when Turkey was not part of these Treaty of Paris in 1947 why it should then accept Greek sovereignty over these Islands? If we just follow your Argumentation in this case then Turkey or any other Nation who is not part of Treaty can contest these Islands which aren´t being part of these Treaties?
    It was not just between Italy and Greece. There were many other signatories to that treaty. You may refer to wikipedia for a list. Turkey was not one of them. I have no idea what Turkey having a "noticeable" coast has to do with discussing that treaty. So if Turkey has the prettiest of all coasts it gets to be a party to every bilateral agreement and international treaty it likes? No.

    Ah why should Turkey accept Greek sovereignty over these islands. Here we go. How about because it is not a warmongering state that respects the territorial integrity of their neighbours? Pfft hahaha, I almost managed to say that with a straight face. Yeah, as if. Well Turkey is not obligated to respect those borders, indeed in some ways it doesn't really. International law can be broken if you are strong enough to deal with the consequences and there is a thing called war. But then don't wonder why Greece is militarizing their islands. It is precisely because of such threats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    If international treaties and laws are exempt from the most basic level of logic and rationalism, what's their worth? Logically speaking, why would Turkey not be able to refer to the treaty that indicates the demilitarization of the islands if the islands are few kms away from its mainland and are spesically militarized againts Turkey?
    Because Greece did not undertake such a responsibility towards Turkey. As far as Turkey goes, Greece is free of obligations to keep those islands demilitarized. Because Turkey was not a party to that treaty and therefore has no right to claim it was wronged. How far away from the Turkish mainland those islands are is completely irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I thought the benefit of modern lawmaking was the flexibility and freedom of amendment in time of need. Instead, we act like there is a single unbendable true that we should all follow regardless of the differences of gazillions of different scenarios, we could as well live in a global theocracy, but oh sorry, it is only unbendable if the side that demands a change is the "enemy of the west."

    Greece and Turkey need a new treaty regarding their sea borders, the so called international law is unfit in our case.
    It's unfit to this case because it doesn't benefit Turkey. You would understand of course if Greece who is a beneficiary of the standard understanding of this law would hesitate to give away its claims to Turkey.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:36 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.

  15. #115
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Between Turkey and Greece last time one of them invaded the other it was Greece invading Anatolia. Should Turkey preemptively occupy all of the Aegean islands just in case by the same line of thinking?
    They toy with the idea, but we stop them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You know how wrong Greek claims in the area Oruç Reis conducts research in is.
    I sincerely and honestly disagree with the research in our EEZ. That Turkey didn't sign our EEZ doesn't mean it's not our EEZ. That there is an island of ours in an "inconvenient" place for Turkey is a problem for Turkey, not me and I don't think that Turkey is right.
    What I think, and I actually consider it possible (if unlikely), is for Turkey to try to take that island from us to "solve" the issue once and for all. So, we defend it.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  16. #116

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    They toy with the idea, but we stop them.
    I sincerely and honestly disagree with the research in our EEZ. That Turkey didn't sign our EEZ doesn't mean it's not our EEZ. That there is an island of ours in an "inconvenient" place for Turkey is a problem for Turkey, not me and I don't think that Turkey is right.
    What I think, and I actually consider it possible (if unlikely), is for Turkey to try to take that island from us to "solve" the issue once and for all. So, we defend it.
    This talk of Greece actively stopping Turkey from invading its islands any moment fares not much further from what Greek special forces marching in Athens and chanting about Constantinople think. It's delusional... What makes the area in question your EEZ?
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; August 31, 2020 at 01:55 PM.
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  17. #117

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    http://famagusta-gazette.com/2020/08...mediterranean/

    That's 30-40 Rafales. They can argue in favour of French positions regarding the EEZ of the area, quite eloquently, from what I hear...
    Last edited by Aexodus; August 31, 2020 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Off topic

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  18. #118
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I do hope for the good of the world AND Turkey that EU steps up its game and puts Erdoğan and his spoiled-ultra nationalist masses to its place while rallying Europeans for a democratic, civilized world once again burying the rising nationalist sentiments over there.

    I am all for Turkey defending its rights, but not with this spoiled aggressive tone, and not by using such issues as a way to keep power and oppress the opposition. That does more harm than good for the country.

    It is natural for Greece to act overly-protective when we have a regime of this sort at the helm. It is an unpredictable regime that is steered by a variety of Islamist and nationalist faction with expansionist dreams.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  19. #119

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    I do hope for the good of the world AND Turkey that EU steps up its game and puts Erdoğan and his spoiled-ultra nationalist masses to its place while rallying Europeans for a democratic, civilized world once again burying the rising nationalist sentiments over there.

    I am all for Turkey defending its rights, but not with this spoiled aggressive tone, and not by using such issues as a way to keep power and oppress the opposition. That does more harm than good for the country.

    It is natural for Greece to act overly-protective when we have a regime of this sort at the helm. It is an unpredictable regime that is steered by a variety of Islamist and nationalist faction with expansionist dreams.
    I'm neither siding with Turkey nor like the theocratic nuttery of Erdogan, but this fanatically anti-nationalist line of thinking is the opposite of what creates civilizations. Let's not forget that in the West, ideas of egalitarianism and liberalism emerged when West already became a superior civilization due to... nationalism and hierarchical "reactionary" (as neomarxist cultists like to call it) ideas. So asking other nations to invade yours is rather questionable, especially given how "democratic civilized world" doesn't really care about democracy in its puppet states.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; August 31, 2020 at 04:43 PM.

  20. #120
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I do not ask for an invasion.

    I am simply fed up with Erdoğan and the other nationalists saying things without any consequence to leverage it against the opposition within the country. The nationalist sentiments have reached crazy levels in Turkey. It is not possible to do any form of politics without considering the "national will" of our great nation and that we must all unite behind our great nation. Democracy, human rights etc are BS Soros lies that we do not need, what matters is our strong leader.

    You might not realize the importance of living in a country with basic democracy and talk highly of nationalism when you live in Canada my friend. But when nationalism reaches a certain level, the main idea becomes that nothing else matters but the imaginary national causes. And whatever the leadership does around that idea is tolerable not matter how corrupt, undemocratic, inhumane it is.


    When the police beats you, makes you dissaper, puts you in jail without proper legal process and media declares you a "potential suicide bomber" out of nowhere and lynch mobs threaten your life because you are a "traitor" ...you understand the value of basic democratic values. May your greatest problem be pink haired LGBT SJWs forever.

    I am about to throw up from our great nation and our great army and our great leader discourse over here everywhere.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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