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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #81

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Any proof that these pics are from Castellorizo? Because I see Blue Star Chios there and I doubt it can even anchor in Kastelorizo.
    They were serviced by Agence France-Presse and first used by France24. Funny enough the article doesn't mention the demilitarization status of the island. Blue Star Chios is known to have made that travel. She is there right now as well.



    Greece is known to militarize islands for decades in violation of international treaties.
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  2. #82
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Greece is arming Kızılhisar (Kastellorizo) Island and truly violating terms, agreements and conventions which they have signed by their own.
    I'm sorry but is that not their island? In fact the island largely thanks to which Greece has an EEZ claim to the eastern Mediterranean? Aka the crux of this current dispute. An island close to a bellicose neighbour that has repeatedly threatened Greece and the Greek islands in particular? Why does Greece not have the right to defend its territory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    They are also using civilian Ships for transportation which is in some case like war crime
    LoL... warcrime...

  3. #83

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I'm sorry but is that not their island? In fact the island largely thanks to which Greece has an EEZ claim to the eastern Mediterranean? Aka the crux of this current dispute. An island close to a bellicose neighbour that has repeatedly threatened Greece and the Greek islands in particular? Why does Greece not have the right to defend its territory?
    Turkey never threatened the sovereignty of any Greek island, let alone that of Kastellorizo. Greece is bound by international treaties to keep the island demilitarized. Yes, the island is the source of the false claim of Greece for EEZ in the region.
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  4. #84
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Turkey never threatened the sovereignty of any Greek island, let alone that of Kastellorizo. Greece is bound by international treaties to keep the island demilitarized. Yes, the island is the source of the false claim of Greece for EEZ in the region.
    Turkey has indeed threatened the Greek islands and Greece numerous times. Here is the Turkish Vice President paving the ground for exactly such a claim for instance:
    https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...ean-islands%2F

    What international treaties are these that say Greece has no right to defend its territory?

    The claim is anything but false. It's an inhabited island.

  5. #85

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Turkey has indeed threatened the Greek islands and Greece numerous times. Here is the Turkish Vice President paving the ground for exactly such a claim for instance:
    https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...ean-islands%2F

    What international treaties are these that say Greece has no right to defend its territory?

    The claim is anything but false. It's an inhabited island.
    The video you're linking doesn't have the deputy president talk about the sovereignty of Greek islands but about Greek calls to expand territorial waters to 12 nm from 6 nm with threats to turn Aegean into a Greek lake.

    Article 14 of Treaty of Paris 1947:
    1. Italy hereby cedes to Greece in full sovereignty the Dodecanese Islands indicated hereafter, namely Stampalia (Astropalia), Rhodes (Rhodos), Calki (Kharki) , Scarpanto, Casos (Casso) , Piscopis (Tilos), Misiros (Nisyros), Calimnos (Kalymnos), Leros, Patmos, Lipsos (Lipso), Simi (Symi), Cos (Kos) and Castellorizo, as well as the adjacent islets.
    2. These islands shall be and shall remain demilitarised.
    I didn't claim that Kastellorizo is not inhabited...
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  6. #86
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The video you're linking doesn't have the deputy president talk about the sovereignty of Greek islands but about Greek calls to expand territorial waters to 12 nm from 6 nm with threats to turn Aegean into a Greek lake.
    The interpretation of the journalist in the tweet I linked to begs to differ. He clearly perceived it as a challenge to the Greek sovereignty over those islands. Because frankly that's what it was. Besides it is absurd to claim that despite Turkey threatening Greece with war, or even that despite the possibility of war between the two, despite all that, the Greek islands are safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Is Turkey a signatory to this deal? No. Has Italy or indeed any of the other signatories complained? No. In fact two of those signatories, France and Italy, recently conducted military exercises with Greece nearby. Therefore we can safely conclude that this clause has lapsed. So where exactly has Greece wronged Turkey here? Nowhere, Turkey is not a part of this treaty. The reason Turkey objects is obviously because Greece militarizing those islands makes them a harder target for when they eventually decide to act on their threats. Greece has the right to defend its territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I didn't claim that Kastellorizo is not inhabited...
    And since it is inhabited. According to everyone's, but Turkey's, understanding of who gets an EEZ, it is entitled to one.
    Last edited by Alastor; August 31, 2020 at 05:19 AM.

  7. #87

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    The interpretation of the journalist in the tweet I linked to begs to differ. He clearly perceived it as a challenge to the Greek sovereignty over those islands. Because frankly that's what it was. Besides it is absurd to claim that despite Turkey threatening Greece with war, or even that despite the possibility of war between the two, but the Greek islands are safe.
    The journalist in the tweet is a known Gülen follower whose organization is known to be in a campaign to infiltrate the Turkish government. Since their falling with AKP they've changed tunes. Bozkurt, the journalist in your tweet, often plays with soundbites and translation to make people say things they didn't say. It's yet an other example of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Is Turkey a signatory to this deal? No. Has Italy or indeed any of the other signatories complained? No. In fact two of those signatories, France and Italy, recently conducted military exercises with Greece nearby. Therefore we can safely conclude that this clause has lapsed. So where exactly has Greece wronged Turkey here? Nowhere, Turkey is not a part of this treaty. The reason Turkey objects is obviously because Greece militarizing those islands makes them a harder target for when they eventually decide to act on their threats. Greece has the right to defend its territory.
    That's not how any of that work. Not much to say there. Just because Turkey is not a signatory to that deal it doesn't mean its clauses are no longer valid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    And since it is inhabited. According to everyone's, but Turkey's, understanding of who gets an EEZ, it is entitled to one.
    This is a false assumption and faulty reading of UNCLOS 1982. There are countless examples out there where island don't get the EEZ its owners claim. Would you like to see a few examples?
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  8. #88
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The journalist in the tweet is a known Gülen follower whose organization is known to be in a campaign to infiltrate the Turkish government. Since their falling with AKP they've changed tunes. Bozkurt, the journalist in your tweet, often plays with soundbites and translation to make people say things they didn't say. It's yet an other example of that.
    That is a weak retort. Turkey is threatening Greece. By default that means it is also threatening the Greek islands. Turkey has an active casus belli threat on Greece, one that Cavusoglu and others recently mentioned. Besides the claim that this guy is a Gulenist doesn't automatically invalidate his interpretation. Just because a journalist is anti-Erdogan it doesn't mean everything he says is false.
    https://www.euractiv.com/section/glo...tens-with-war/

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That's not how any of that work. Not much to say there. Just because Turkey is not a signatory to that deal it doesn't mean its clauses are no longer valid.
    Turkey not being a signatory means it has no claims over the contents of that treaty. As I said, has any of the signatories complained? No.
    Greece has the right to defend its territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This is a false assumption and faulty reading of UNCLOS 1982. There are countless examples out there where island don't get the EEZ its owners claim. Would you like to see a few examples?
    False according to Turkey yes. No I don't really care to see more irrelevant examples falsely touted as counterpoints, I have seen enough.
    Last edited by Alastor; August 31, 2020 at 04:55 AM.

  9. #89

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    More love from Turkey:
    Chairman of Turkey’s National Movement Party (MHP), Devlet Bahçeli, said Greece has been a “malignant tumor” that has been bothering Turkey since 1821, the year the Greek War of Independence began.

    “This malignant tumor will be cured if possible, otherwise it will be eradicated at all costs,” he said in a message.
    https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/08/3...ey-since-1821/

    I think that it's pretty clear where this is going.
    Furthermore, Bahceli said he would start a march for the "liberation of the Dodecanese from the evil Greeks".
    I would like to thank both Bahceli and Erdogan for their statements. They have shown, even to the most naive person, exactly what it is that Greece is dealing here.
    We are talking about mentality similar to that of Adolph Hitler.
    And we are "guilty", because in the midst of all this we are "arming Kastelorizzo". Really? I guess throwing such threats at Greece is well within Turkey's rights, but Greece defending itself from aggression is unacceptable.


    Btw, if a tumour persists for 200 years, I really don't think that the patient has much of a chance to survive.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; August 31, 2020 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Hard to read.

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  10. #90
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    More love from Turkey
    Thank god that nationalist scum only represents 12% of the country.

  11. #91

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    That is a weak retort. Turkey is threatening Greece. By default that means it is also threatening the Greek islands. Turkey has an active casus belli threat on Greece, one that Cavusoglu and others recently mentioned. Besides the claim that this guy is a Gulenist doesn't immediately invalidate his interpretation. Just because a journalist is anti-Erdogan it doesn't mean everything he says is false.
    https://www.euractiv.com/section/glo...tens-with-war/
    It's not weak. It's what anyone who understands Turkish and checks the interview would understand. No, it doesn't mean by default its threatening Greek islands. It's an idiotic suggestion. The casus belli is on Greece expanding its territory in the Aegean, not on the existing territory Greece holds. I'm not gonna forfeit my ability to speak Turkish just to please you. There is nothing in that tweet or in the article you link that accurately suggests Turkey is threatening to invade Greek islands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Turkey not being a signatory means it has no claims over the contents of that treaty. As I said has any of the signatories complained? No.
    Greece has the right to defend its territory.
    Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Sorry. Greece certainly has the right to defend its territory but it doesn't have the right to militarize that particular island.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    False according to Turkey yes. No I don't really care to see more irrelevant examples falsely touted as counterpoints, I have seen enough.
    I'll show anyways. First example is St. Pierre Miquelon. The arbitration rewarded only a fraction of what France claimed:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Moving on to Eritrea-Yemen where islands were largely not counted into EEZ calculations beyond their territorial borders:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Similar case in Colombia-Nicaragua:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Libya-Malta:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Perhaps, Italy-Tunisia is the clearest example:




    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    More love from Turkey:
    https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/08/3...ey-since-1821/
    I think that it's pretty clear where this is going.
    Furthermore, Bahceli said he would start a march for the "liberation of the Dodecanese from the evil Greeks".
    I would like to thank both Bahceli and Erdogan for their statements. They have shown, even to the most naive person, exactly what it is that Greece is dealing here.
    We are talking about mentality similar to that of Adolph Hitler.
    And we are "guilty", because in the midst of all this we are "arming Kastelorizzo". Really? I guess throwing such threats at Greece is well within Turkey's rights, but Greece defending itself from aggression is unacceptable.
    Btw, if a tumour persists for 200 years, I really don't think that the patient has much of a chance to survive.
    Bahçeli's party is more akin to Golden Dawn of Greece but less extreme. This kind of rhetoric is nothing new nor it is specific to Turkey. Many on the Greek side use a similar rhetoric. Turks talk about reminding Greeks how they were kicked into the sea last time they tried to invade Anatolia and Greeks talk about partitioning Turkey. Both sides sees their comments as justified given that both sides see the other one as the aggressor. Then it all boils down to ioannis76 using existence of such rhetoric t whitewash preposterous Greek claims in the Mediterranean and violation of international treaties.

    NOTE: Bahçeli didn't say in that speech he would start a march for the "liberation of the Dodecanese from the evil Greeks". Not sure why ioannis76 would mix that up there.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; August 31, 2020 at 06:06 AM.
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  12. #92
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's not weak. It's what anyone who understands Turkish and checks the interview would understand. No, it doesn't mean by default its threatening Greek islands. It's an idiotic suggestion. The casus belli is on Greece expanding its territory in the Aegean, not on the existing territory Greece holds. I'm not gonna forfeit my ability to speak Turkish just to please you. There is nothing in that tweet or in the article you link that accurately suggests Turkey is threatening to invade Greek islands.
    So I guess that journalist doesn't understand Turkish? And it is an idiotic suggestion that when Turkey threatens Greece with war, it means it also threatens the Greek islands? You may not forfeit your ability to speak Turkish, but you certainly have forfeited your ability to reason in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Sorry. Greece certainly has the right to defend its territory but it doesn't have the right to militarize that particular island.
    It works exactly like that sorry. It is in fact Turkey that has no right to object to the militarization of that island. The countries that have that right, do not object.

    To use legalese, said treaty as far as Turkey is concerned is res inter alios acta, which is latin for "none of your business Turkey". Again, Turkey is not a signatory to this treaty. Has any of the signatories complained? No. In fact, at least one of them, France, is decisively on the side of Greece on this dispute. I don't think you can make a claim that Turkey is defending the rights of France here, not with a straight face at least.
    Last edited by Alastor; August 31, 2020 at 06:06 AM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    So I guess that journalist doesn't understand Turkish? And it is an idiotic suggestion that when Turkey threatens Greece with war, it means it also threatens the Greek islands? You may not forfeit your ability to speak Turkish, but you certainly have forfeited your ability to reason in this case.
    He understands Turkish perfectly fine. He understood Turkish perfectly when he was on AKP's camp working for a Gülen-tied newspaper writing lies about the opposition. Now, he's using the same skills to fool people like you who doesn't speak Turkish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    It works exactly like that sorry. It is in fact Turkey that has no right to object to the militarization of that island. The countries that have that right, do not object.

    To use legalese, said treaty as far as Turkey is concerned is res inter alios acta, which is latin for "none of your business Turkey". Again, Turkey is not a signatory to this treaty. Has any of the signatories complained? No. In fact, at least one of them, France, is decisively on the side of Greece on this dispute. I don't think you can make a claim that Turkey is defending the rights of France here, not with a straight face at least.


    Greece doesn't even respect demilitarization status of other islands under the Treaty of Lausanne. So, I don't expect much understanding in this case.
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  14. #94
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Thank god that nationalist scum only represents 12% of the country.
    That is his vote count but his views are shared bu up to 50% unfortunately.
    Bahçeli and Erdoğan are in a coalition and Erdoğan often speaks through Bahçeli who's leverage on the AKP policy-making increased significantly as Erdoğan weakened.

    The ultranationalist MHP's views are a lot more prominent in Turkish statecraft and bureaucracy today. The discourse has shifted from a more Islamist tone to a more Turkish nationalist tone as MHP's weight increased within the ruling coalition.

    Bahçeli was recently also saying that the status quo in the Aegean has to be changed, and that Turkey does not fit into this current context. Meanwhile, Erdoğan was praising the concept of conquest saying we are "not imperialist conquerors, we share when we take a place - the spirit of fetih" he calls it"
    While Erdoğan's speech is disgusting, it might be considered in the Turkish domestic political context. However Bahçeli's speech is something else. He wield a lot of power over the bureaucracy and especially in the underground factions as well as the security forces. Things he declares often become the official state policy in a while.

    Saying Turkey does not threaten is naive. Turkey has been threatening from the top officials for a long time now. The discourse in the country is also quite dark, with praisal of warfare, conquests, the idea that Turkey cannot be "contained" in the Anatolia that it has been put into since Lausanne...etc. The AKP government constantly uses the term "GREATER TURKEY". These are very very very dangerous things. Turkey has definetly shifted to an expansionist discourse. While the Greek acts in the Aegean might be maximalist, we cannot deny that Turkey's expansionist discourse and actions are becoming the official ideology of the state, and is being fed to public constantly.
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  15. #95
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    He understands Turkish perfectly fine. He understood Turkish perfectly when he was on AKP's camp working for a Gülen-tied newspaper writing lies about the opposition. Now, he's using the same skills to fool people like you who doesn't speak Turkish.
    Good, then if he understands Turkish and he interpreted the vice President's words as a claim on the Greek islands, your argument that nobody who understands Turkish and checks the interview would make that conclusion is false. Next.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post


    Greece doesn't even respect demilitarization status of other islands under the Treaty of Lausanne. So, I don't expect much understanding in this case.
    You can keep saying that as much as you want. But it is how it works. Turkey is not a signatory. Turkey derives no rights from that treaty. The signatories that do have rights, do not object to Greece's activities. That treaty as far as Turkey is concerned is none of their business.
    Yet again, Greece has the right to defend its territory, that much more when neighbored by a bellicose state with an active casus belli against her. Which illustrates further that the only reason Turkey objects to this militarization in the first place is that it will make taking it harder.

  16. #96

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Thank god that nationalist scum only represents 12% of the country.
    He is Erdogan's partner in the turkish government. Erdogan himself says similar things.

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  17. #97

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Greece doesn't even respect demilitarization status of other islands under the Treaty of Lausanne. So, I don't expect much understanding in this case.
    Turkey has torn the Treaty to shreds by claiming islands that are farther away than 3 miles off her coast and are not stated as turkish sovereignty. Greece has every right to defend herself against turkish aggression, and to defend her citizens from suffering uspeakable atrocities, much like the Cypriots and the Kurds in Turkey and in Syria, recently.

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  18. #98
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    They were serviced by Agence France-Presse and first used by France24. Funny enough the article doesn't mention the demilitarization status of the island. Blue Star Chios is known to have made that travel. She is there right now as well.

    [.IMG.]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgrsQGBWAAAkfwj?format=jpg&name=medium[./IMG/]
    I can't see that image that can only be seen if I quote.
    You may be right that we sent soldiers to that island. But if we're talking about international treaties, then how about talking about other treaties Turkey doesn't respect?
    No, I am not saying Turkey signed the treaty about the nautical miles. I am saying Turkey shows more disregard about international treaties than Greece that sends soldiers to defend Kastelorizo in case Turkey decides to "press the issue" by illegally occupying the island.
    It wouldn't be the first time they use illegal occupation to bring their neighbors to the negotiation table.

    I cannot give my personal opinion on that action from Greece or other actions I would like to see when it comes to defending Kastelorizo from a potential Attila2020 because of the Terms of Service.
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  19. #99

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Any proof that these pics are from Castellorizo? Because I see Blue Star Chios there and I doubt it can even anchor in Kastelorizo.
    I can even provide you even some Pics with Submarines or patrol boat which are going there for anchor. Since 1974 Greece is not true to the agreements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    That's not a war crime, calm down. There is no armed conflict. And there won't be any, because real life is not a video game forum.
    These Islands are considered as demilitarized Zone and using some civilian transport to bring your Military from A to B in these terms is what exaclty? Greece ones did such things like in 1974 they took their own flag and replaced it with an turkish one since both sides have some same type of Landing Craft during that time.

    Since 2003 there are heavily Greek Military presence on these Islands which are considered as demilitarized Zone - not just temporary they go further and establishing stationary military facilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time they use illegal occupation to bring their neighbors to the negotiation table.

    I cannot give my personal opinion on that action from Greece or other actions I would like to see when it comes to defending Kastelorizo from a potential Attila2020 because of the Terms of Service.
    Are you referring to Cyprus? I don´t think that i need to reminder that this was more an cause by Greece and not Turkey. You guys went extreme right and then even try to Annex Cyprus while inserting there an collaboration government which on the meanwhile started to ethnic cleansing of the turkish cypriots. Did you really think Turkey would just watch without any bother? If you reffering to something else do not hesitate to give us more information in that case.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Thank god that nationalist scum only represents 12% of the country.
    I even don´t understand again how these internal Politics of Turkey again come to table on this Topic. As usual we got the same guys here who are again seeing here a ground for themselve to post anything against Turkey even if it´s not really related to this Topic. Hypocrisy at its finest they even don´t let a chance go away to post their hatred against anything that would be turkish and bring some even old things ones again back to the table to the 10th-100th time.

    Can some of these guy please going back to this Topic: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!


    Last edited by Nebaki; August 31, 2020 at 09:02 AM.

  20. #100
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I can even provide you even some Pics with Submarines or patrol boat which are going there for anchor. Since 1974 Greece is not true to the agreements.
    You mean the year Turkey invaded Cyprus? That year? An island they still occupy 1/3 of? Yeah Greece is completely nuts to worry about its islands right after witnessing Turkey execute an island invasion. On an island it was guaranteeing no less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Since 2003 there are heavily Greek Military presence on these Islands which are considered as demilitarized Zone - not just temporary they go further and establishing stationary military facilities.
    Good. Greece should militarize Kastellorizo as much as possible. It is threatened by Turkey and needs to be protected. And you know what? Turkey has no legal right to object to that militarization anyway. Turkey was not party to the treaty demilitarizing it. If the parties to that treaty have an issue with Greece remilitarizing the island, they may voice them. But none has.

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