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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #61

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Finally, Turkey is being honest of what she wants. "But, but, my neighbor's islands are too close to my shore. Why should I not take it, if I can see it?"
    https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...55978938888192
    That's not what he says, not a single part indicates taking over the islands, he complains about the EEZ claims over these islands which should have never belonged to Greece in the first place (which i agree) but makes no remarks on taking them.

    Classical Gulenist behaviour, scum of earth. They would say 5 things and 6 of it would be lies and deception, that was always their way.

  2. #62
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Within the context of this specific conflict its really not Turkey that is warmongering. It's Greece.

    There are few misrepresentations in the article.

    1) It portrays Greek live fire exercise as a response to Turkish live fire exercises. This is not true. It was Greece that declared theirs in response to Turkish research mission. Turkey declared its own exercises in response to Greek exercises. Greece, along with France, chose to escalate it into that level.

    2) The article mentions Greek exodus from the Turkish occupied area but doesn't refer to Turkish exodus from the Greek occupied area.

    3) The article forgets to mention Greece for backing Haftar.

    4) The article fails to mention the deal between Egypt and Greece only covering half the maritime border Greece normally claims in the area with Egypt.

    Overall, its not exactly a neutral article either. Out of all the conflicts between Turkey and Greece this is one of those that Greece is least right about.
    1) That's not what we heard over here. When I was in Athens for vacations, when the whole thing started in late July, I recall Turkey declaring a maritime military exercise and then us declaring one in response.

    2) Even if it does forget that (which is peculiar) the Turkish exodus from the unoccupied areas isn't that important omission to call the article pro-Greek.

    3) We're not really backing Haftar. He held meetings in Greece in January I think, but we're not sending military or $$$$ to his forces.

    4) You mentioned that deal covering half the maritime border in the past. As far as I know, the rest is just not mentioned in the deal, we haven't forfeited it to Egypt. We just don't talk about it. It has also been mentioned here as a bit peculiar but nobody was giving too much thought about it so frankly, I can't answer you about that. My personal theories are that this may be because:
    - We disagree with Egypt about where Cyprus EEZ starts or where the Egypt EEZ is so it's not mentioned in the agreement.
    - We don't disagree with Egypt but the deal covers only part of our EEZ with the rest to be decided later, so the part that is out of the deal is not mentioned
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    That's not what he says, not a single part indicates taking over the islands, he complains about the EEZ claims over these islands which should have never belonged to Greece in the first place (which i agree) but makes no remarks on taking them.

    Classical Gulenist behaviour, scum of earth. They would say 5 things and 6 of it would be lies and deception, that was always their way.
    No matter how much you try to sugarcoat it, the hitherto secret (at least they didn't say it openly) lust of Turkey for the Greek islands is evident. The islands were not given to Greece, they were liberated by Greece and they are part of Greece. They are not "X miles (and it's miles not kilometers when we speak about sea distances), FROM Greece, they ARE GREECE.

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  4. #64
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    They are not "X miles, FROM Greece, they ARE GREECE.
    That.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    1) That's not what we heard over here. When I was in Athens for vacations, when the whole thing started in late July, I recall Turkey declaring a maritime military exercise and then us declaring one in response.

    2) Even if it does forget that (which is peculiar) the Turkish exodus from the unoccupied areas isn't that important omission to call the article pro-Greek.

    3) We're not really backing Haftar. He held meetings in Greece in January I think, but we're not sending military or $$$$ to his forces.

    4) You mentioned that deal covering half the maritime border in the past. As far as I know, the rest is just not mentioned in the deal, we haven't forfeited it to Egypt. We just don't talk about it. It has also been mentioned here as a bit peculiar but nobody was giving too much thought about it so frankly, I can't answer you about that. My personal theories are that this may be because:
    - We disagree with Egypt about where Cyprus EEZ starts or where the Egypt EEZ is so it's not mentioned in the agreement.
    - We don't disagree with Egypt but the deal covers only part of our EEZ with the rest to be decided later, so the part that is out of the deal is not mentioned
    1) Nope. No live fire exercise NAVTEX was issued in July. Turkey initially only issued NAVTEX for seismic survey.

    2) The article chooses to only portray one side of history. It's a factor in it's pro-Greek approach.

    3) Supporting someone isn't exactly tied to sending them money or weapons. I don't see Sarraj having meetings in Greece.

    4) You know very well how ridiculous that sounds. Neither of those has any merit.

    This particular conflict is one that Greece has the least rights in. The silence from the Greek side is a testament to that.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; August 30, 2020 at 04:31 AM.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Egypt is on Greece's side and Saudi Arabia is no friend of Turkey's.
    Russia might actually somewhat back Turkey to further drive a wedge between them and the rest of NATO.

    Btw, Greece deployed Patriot missiles in Saudi Arabia, along with personnel. Our good relations with S.A. and the UAE is evident from the fact that Greece received spare parts for our Apache helicopters from the UAE. It is said that Israel will modernise Helleinc AH-64A+s after that. This is not the first time the UAE are supporting Greece. In 2014 the UAE offered Greece spare parts for the "S" frigates. An interesting note is that the frigate that rammed the Kemal Reis (the MEKO class frig that is the flagship of Turkey) is an S class frig.

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  7. #67

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Our good relations with S.A. and the UAE is evident from the fact that Greece received spare parts for our Apache helicopters from the UAE. It is said that Israel will modernise Helleinc AH-64A+s after that. This is not the first time the UAE are supporting Greece. In 2014 the UAE offered Greece spare parts for the "S" frigates. An interesting note is that the frigate that rammed the Kemal Reis (the MEKO class frig that is the flagship of Turkey) is an S class frig.
    There is no proof that Kemal Reis is being rammed or harassed by some Greek claims. Besides that since when getting some spare parts or giving Israel an Job Offer to modernise some Helicopters is good relationship? Turkey is even today building some Defence Products for UAE or even S.A and some companies there even have their branch there.

  8. #68

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    So can I get a list of those Turkish allies backing the claims? Is Russia the only possibility?

    If thats the case, why on earth does Turkey think they can push these claims if the EU can break the back of the currency with a few moves like Trump did?

  9. #69

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    So can I get a list of those Turkish allies backing the claims? Is Russia the only possibility?
    Why should Russia the only possibility? Can even Russia something in that case?

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    If thats the case, why on earth does Turkey think they can push these claims if the EU can break the back of the currency with a few moves like Trump did?
    EU is not Greece and Greece is not just the EU.

  10. #70

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Why should Russia the only possibility? Can even Russia something in that case?



    EU is not Greece and Greece is not just the EU.
    The EU will back Greece, and so will the Americans.

    I didn't realize this, but apparently the Turkish Lira was in free fall before this started. The turks will have to back down as sanctions will break their currency.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  11. #71

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    The EU will back Greece, and so will the Americans.
    The EU and USA will back their interests and not just everything that Greece wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    I didn't realize this, but apparently the Turkish Lira was in free fall before this started. The turks will have to back down as sanctions will break their currency.
    Maybe but the Turkey surely got more buffer then Greece - for comparison:

    https://commodity.com/data/greece/debt-clock/

    https://commodity.com/data/turkey/debt-clock/



  12. #72
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    (lots of thoughts, not really arguments below)

    Turkey is rapidly transforming into an ultra-nationalist state with some Islamic sauce. The Islamic sauce also functions as an extension of foreign ties of Turkey since diplomatically Turkey has put itself in a very isolated position, so the best apparent partner for the Erdoğan regime became non-state Muslim Brotherhood organizations throughout the Middle East and in Europe.

    This is having a massive impact on the logic of the Turkish bureaucracy as well. Meanwhile the Eurasianist military (since the purge of the pro-West officers, the army is largely left in the hands of Eurasianists, some lighter on West some full on pro-Russia & China) has found the perfect opportunity to utilize everything Turkey has as Erdoğan's power now relies to a great extend on militarist-nationalism. And lets be honest, Turkey has a lot of resources, tangible and intangible when it comes to military matters.

    In anycase, where we are now is beyond debating of whether Turkey or Greece is right or wrong. Alliances are being forged with ideological compatabilities in mind, now with the law.

    For a long time, EU treated Erdoğan as a pragmatic leader with the hopes that Turkey will eventually one day get close to West and integrate into the global system. However, as the new regime in Turkey is completely entrenching itself by dismantling democracy to symbolic levels, completely transforming bureaucracy into an ideological extension of the anti-western ideology, the EU seems to be losing its hopes about Turkey.
    For many years, for internal politics, nationalists and islamists would throw around jingoistic and hostile rhetoric with little being said by the West. Finally we see the West upping its counter-rhetoric, especially through Macron. And the opposition is pushed into an irrelevant position as the Turkish nationalism is likely to take over even most of the opposition if a conflict brews. The liberal-democrat rhetoric is declared as treacherous and obviously there is no platform to openly debate the alternatives. So anyone that is against the aggressive side of Turkish moves simply remain silent to not by lynched. This ties the hands of the opposition which the West hopes to restore. (likely, if the opposition was to win, things would rapidly normalize)

    Most still do not believe there will be a conflict, but as things get heated, the sides are becoming more and more clear. And the Western alliance is coming together against Turkey. I also think that when the push comes to shove, the West will easily back Greece. Greece seems eager to throw the manpower needed for such things, if they get the necessary technological-equipment support (such as the potential Rafale deal with France for Greece or the Turkey's kicking out of the F-35 program), they can out-pace Turkey in arms-race.

    Meanwhile, credit where it is due, this process has indeed at great costs turned Turkey into a largely self-sufficient military force. The indigenous military capabilities are expanding at a seriously rapid pace and consequently the creation of an independent military-industrial complex is translating into an independent policy core. The government shills calls this the formation of a "Turkey-axis" against imperialism that will save all the "weak and suffering" in the world, bringing the justice of Turk-Islam's sword to everywhere. This rhetoric sells really well.
    In the future the rapid development of the industry would likely embolden Turkey even more, and there is a strong opinion in the Turkish mind that the West is being eroded from within as nationalisms rise. So the current regime intends to wait for a bit more as it gathers power, negotiating with West to get economic benefits while the West divides even more. Pretty much the Russian strategy.

    Note however that this is not purely Erdoğan's ideas. Erdoğan is a pragmatic politician. However, his power has weakened so much that to keep power he had to ally with the secular, Eurasianist and nationalist factions. That is why he talks so boldly now, his power leans on these groups who represent the extremes of Turkish nationalism and jingoism. There is extremely aggressive talk within Turkey to domestic audiances from the top ranking politicians. Both for the situation in the Middle East and in Meditterenan. The media is full on pumping nationalism (as always but even more). Pretty much the whole opposition is declared as a 5th column.

    I think the utter destruction Trump has brought to American political stability has given a lot of room for authoritarian and aggressive tones all over the world. From the past years we have seen how Turkey always lurks to use times of elections in USA to complicate things (such as the invasion of Kurds in Syria) when the presidential power is at its most confused. Turkey still bets on Trump winning again. Erdoğan will more easily carry on in his dismantling of democracy and guarantee his place for the 2023 presidential election in Turkey.
    Thankfully, the "institutional" structures in USA somewhat holds and contains the Turkish aggression. But for how long? As Turkish economy and politics become more desperate, the chance of a conflict increases. Meanwhile, it seems that Greece plays the game where they want to make Turkey finally snap and do the first move to legitimize a Western reaction. This becomes likelier each day as the West's stakes and hopes in Turkey erode(mainly from the opposition). There is already a local alliance of Kurds, KSA, UAE, Egypt, Haftar besides Cyprus and Greece who are directly involved. France is acting as the strong-arm of EU while the USA seems to be siding more and more with the pro-West faction. This faction would easily overwhelm Turkey IF they are REALLY willing to put in the costs necessary.

    I wish I knew what is exactly on the minds of the Turkish leaders, but from what I can see the head of the Defence Ministry is (Hulusi Akar) is a pro-NATO figure that yearns for the old days when Turkey had a lot of autonomy within the alliance. I do not think he intends a conflict with the NATO, but he wants the West to remain silent on Turkey's action like before (such as with Armenia, Kurds or in the Aegean). On the other hand, behind the scenes, there are many more aggressive figures who openly declare an anti-Atlantic tone (a lot of them are the commanders that were purged during the Ergenekon trials by the apparent Western-puppet FETÖ organization back in 2010). How they do the cost-benefit analysis in their heads, I do not know. They talk boldly though, saying that Greece is no issue for us but we have to be carefull with the "Atlanticist" plans behind it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgBi5PR627I)

    I personally do not think however that Russia would back Turkey in anyway. The Russian regime relies on Russian nationalism which feeds immensely from the Orthodox brotherhood. Putin's regime would not collapse if he backed Turkey, but he'd have serious long-term problem at home front. Furthermore, I doubt it is in the interests of Russia for there to be a powerful Turkey as the spheres of both sides collide immensely. So I do not think it is a plausible strategy for Turkey to rely on Russia at all.

    In anycase, I wish for Turkish nationalism to get a damage it cannot recover from. I also believe the globalist system needs to be empowered further. I honestly don't think the West would have been backing Greece like now had Turkey not taken a completely ideologically-incompatible path. They remained silent before, even when Kurds were being destroyed terribly. I think in the end the reason things are changing rapidly is because of Turkey's qualitative change domestically.
    Last edited by dogukan; August 30, 2020 at 08:55 AM.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  13. #73

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    So can I get a list of those Turkish allies backing the claims? Is Russia the only possibility?
    If thats the case, why on earth does Turkey think they can push these claims if the EU can break the back of the currency with a few moves like Trump did?
    Right is not determined by who backs who. The current situation is largely due to Turkish foreign policy making enemies out of Israel (read Mavi Marmara) and Egypt (read 2013 coup). Those two factors alone puts Turkey at a disadvantage which allows Greece to exploit the situation and make preposterous claims in the region.

    The currency crisis is largely a product of economic policy failures of AKP government in Turkey. It's not EU or USA that have been breaking the back of the Turkish lira but AKP's obsession with keeping interest rates down that have been doing it. Moreover, sanctions are exactly what AKP wants as it plays into their hand to show the foreigners as enemies of Turkey so that they can solidify their base as their grasp of the public is slipping.

    On the other hand, what we're seeing is shortsightedness from countries that deal with Turkey. They act as if AKP is eternal. The EU and USA have much more to gain with Turkey on their side, yet, they have been creating rifts in favor of short term gains. The exception is Germany, of course. They'be been milder in their dealings with the divisions.
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  14. #74

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    What's making matters even worse is the central bank wasn't using only its own reserves, but dollars borrowed from domestic banks, to buy the lira. As a result, it now owes more foreign currency to the banks than it currently has in its coffers
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw....ion/a-54524078

    Yes the AKP has destroyed the currency; regardless of who is at fault, they can’t make threats when their economy is hemorrhaging. Bankrupt nations can’t wage war. Any sanctions are going to send the Lira into a tailspin. Germany is probably playing nice because their bankers are so heavily exposed to Turkish debt.

  15. #75

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw....ion/a-54524078

    Yes the AKP has destroyed the currency; regardless of who is at fault, they can’t make threats when their economy is hemorrhaging. Bankrupt nations can’t wage war. Any sanctions are going to send the Lira into a tailspin. Germany is probably playing nice because their bankers are so heavily exposed to Turkish debt.
    They certainly can if they have nothing to lose. What you fail to see is that AKP backed themselves into a corner. They can no longer leave peacefully. They know very well that once they start losing elections they won't be able to live in Turkey. Hence, they're banking on using foreign countries as the enemy to consolidate their base to keep on remaining in power. Of course, since you're seemingly coming from a Greek perspective you think Turkey is turning mountains to violate other nation's rights. It's not. Especially with regards to this particular conflict in the Mediterranean. Are you aware of the disputed area? It's Greece that wants to start a war here.

    Germany knows that Turkey is much more valuable to EU than Greece is, both as an economic and military ally. Foreign money have been out of Turkey lately to a great extent. I doubt there is any considerable threat in relation to that. Though back in 2018, it was French, Spanish and Italian banks that were most exposed. The real loss is the Turkish market where European brands feed off a lot from. Another loss is Turkish cooperation in international energy cooperation. It's much cheaper for EU to work with Turkey to transfer natural resources from Asia. Israel wanted that too but had to decide on the Greek plan due to enmities with AKP. Once AKP goes in a decade you'll see conflicts play out differently.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  16. #76

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    I wish for Turkish nationalism to get a damage it cannot recover from.
    Will not it´s firmly anchored in the system - Turkish nationalism = Atatürks Views.
    Last edited by Nebaki; August 30, 2020 at 02:44 PM.

  17. #77
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    On the other hand, what we're seeing is shortsightedness from countries that deal with Turkey. They act as if AKP is eternal. The EU and USA have much more to gain with Turkey on their side, yet, they have been creating rifts in favor of short term gains. The exception is Germany, of course. They'be been milder in their dealings with the divisions.
    They did not, for a long time. But more and more, they are coming to terms with the idea. I don't know how familiar you are with Turkish bureaucracy, but AKP has been building its own Erdoğanist cadres for at least a decade since the Hakan Fidan appointment to counter FETÖ in 2010.
    They have come a veeeeery long way, especially since the FETÖ purges, they've filled many key positions with Erdoğan loyalists.

    Not to mention that the secondary force that is preparing itself to take over is ultra-nationalist folk like Soylu, Bahçeli cadres and Eurasianists. There is simply no alternative left. Vast majority of a pro-West liberal youth does not train themselves to become bureaucrats at this point anyway due to the hopelessness of the situation. I know several people within the bureaucracy, and it is full of anti-Western ultra-nationalists, Islamists or Eurasianists.
    Liberal minded folk were mobbed out of most position if not purged during the FETÖ thing.

    The entrenchment of the AKP makes Turkey appear more and more as a "regime" that relies on networks of certain ideological groups rather than an elective democracy.
    That is why the West is starting to act more and more like AKP is eternal. Lets be honest, they waited for far too long.

    The end of Erdoğan through any means, be it natural death or a retiring I do not know will shake the current system for sure. I hope that the regime do not survive and Turkey turns into a liberal democracy, but let's be honest, the most powerful candidates right now are people who could become worse than Erdoğan.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  18. #78

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Greece is arming Kızılhisar (Kastellorizo) Island and truly violating terms, agreements and conventions which they have signed by their own.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    They are also using civilian Ships for transportation which is in some case like war crime:
    https://streamable.com/56simg

  19. #79

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    That's not a war crime, calm down. There is no armed conflict. And there won't be any, because real life is not a video game forum.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  20. #80
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Greece is arming Kızılhisar (Kastellorizo) Island and truly violating terms, agreements and conventions which they have signed by their own.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    They are also using civilian Ships for transportation which is in some case like war crime:
    https://streamable.com/56simg
    Any proof that these pics are from Castellorizo? Because I see Blue Star Chios there and I doubt it can even anchor in Kastelorizo.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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