The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

[PointOfViewGun]

@POVG
Dimitris Kammenos is a well known anti-semitic, homophobic and right-wing nazi sympathizing nut, his election in the parliament was a disgrace to any decent human living left in the country.

So? That somehow invalidates what he says?

Cespian Report's latest take on the matter, although it touches mostly the 12nm territorial sea part of the argument:

The video doesn't cover the topic of this thread.

[Nebaki]

Some of you probably remember the crash of an Greek AH-64:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They were training this tactic:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the weeks and months before the war, the Apache's Bravo Company had developed new tactics that they hoped to use against Iraqi tanks and armored vehicles. The Apache helicopter was a ground-attack aircraft; tanks and fighting vehicles were its principal targets. The tactics developed by Bravo Company pilots were considerably different from the ones they had practiced in Europe. There the Apache pilots had been trained to fly low, using hills for cover, and popping up to fire. In the desert there were few hills high enough for the Apaches to hide behind. To compensate, Bravo Company had devised what they called high-energy and low-energy tactics. In both approaches the pilots lined up their six helicopters shoulder to shoulder, in three teams of two. In low-energy tactics, the two helicopters in a team would fly 300 to 500 meters apart; there would be an 800-to 1,000 meter spread between teams. The helicopers flew just 30 feet off the ground, creeping forward just fast enough to leave the dust from their rotor wash behind them. It was not foolproof, but in the relative flatness of the desert terrain, the tactic gave the Apache pilots as much of a chance to pull off a surprise attack as they could reasonably hope for.

Low-energy tactics were for nighttime, when they were nearly invisible. The high-energy tactics were for daytime use, when they would want to move faster. They called for the two-Apache teams to spread out with about 1 1/2 kilometers between them. Then they would circle and fly in at the target at speeds of 40 miles an hour. The idea was to get close, shoot, and get away fast.
Laser guided the Hellfire anti-tank missiles. The Apaches' 30-mm gun was also laser-directed. The laser accounted for the speed of the aircraft, the wind, and the aircraft's movement for seven seconds prior to firing. Attached to the pilot's helmet was a two-inch-square semi-transparent monocle that extended about an inch or two in front of the pilot's right eye. Projected onto the monocle was the targeting information that came from the Apache's infrared targeting systems. There was also a cross hair-type targeting device. All of the Apache's weapons systems were linked electronically to the monocle. All a weapons officer had to do was look at a target, lay the cross hairs on it, and fire his weapon of choice.

Source: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ns/apache.html

Instead of getting for example Bell AH-1 SuperCobra or even Eurocopter Tiger which would be more suitable for the aegean sea they got these devasteous Machines for only one purpose - Invading Minor Asia on a Mass Assault.

But of course if somehow for example Turkey is making a simple military drill we would already see how this Topic would be flooded with Articles from some Websites in Greek Language. The problem here is obvious that the Greek Side cannot Agree with a Turkey which would be equal in their Rights with them. They still have the delusional thinking (not all of them) but more then a few that somehow Europe or the Western World must worship them since they are the heir and descendants of ancient Greeks.

It looks more obviously that the current Greek State (if we even can consider it as a State) had changes in his forms in the nearly past but still remained the one idea "Megali Idea" probably the only Earth on planets where democratic views are tied with such extremism.

For example we got another proof of that in the young past when former Prime Minister of Greece "Andreas Papandreou" meet with former President of Syria (Assad Clan Leader) "Hafez al-Assad" on 1984 where they discussed the future of Hatay Province of Turkey. (https://www.jta.org/1984/11/06/archi...-visited-libya)

While Turkey thought in the first that the terrorists were armed from Soviet Union since their Equipment was in a outstanding condition for that time for a Militia kind of a Guerilla Group they later came after that they were armed by Syria but trained of course in Greece.(https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/cia-...-groups/734178)

Did even Greece take any kind of responsibility in that case? Of course not as usual.

[Beorn]

Instead of getting for example Bell AH-1 SuperCobra or even Eurocopter Tiger which would be more suitable for the aegean sea they got these devasteous Machines for only one purpose - Invading Minor Asia on a Mass Assault.

Jesus, among the delusional thing I've seen on the internet today, this may be the most delusional one . Thanks for the free laugh, mate.

So? That somehow invalidates what he says?

Who on hell gives a what he says? He is a detestable human being that held no office at the time of expressing this opinion (this means that none has to apologize for him or condemn him), his party was so small that it didn't even participate in the last elections (in words that even you will understand: the absolute last party received 51 votes. He represents even less that this).

You have to try more in order to find something even remotely similar to the declarations of the Vice President of the Turkish Republic in order to deflect the discussion to the other side. That's pretty much the definition of whataboutism.

The video doesn't cover the topic of this thread.

Isn't this about the rights of the two nations regarding the eastern Mediterranean basin, including Kastellorizo's territorial waters? Unless you have a mod's badge, what you are attempting is vigilante moderating.

[Nebaki]

Jesus, among the delusional thing I've seen on the internet today, this may be the most delusional one . Thanks for the free laugh, mate.

Well you should also watch greek state policy before they even became Member of European Union you should aswell laugh there.

[PointOfViewGun]

Who on hell gives a what he says? He is a detestable human being that held no office at the time of expressing this opinion (this means that none has to apologize for him or condemn him), his party was so small that it didn't even participate in the last elections (in words that even you will understand: the absolute last party received 51 votes. He represents even less that this).
You have to try more in order to find something even remotely similar to the declarations of the Vice President of the Turkish Republic in order to deflect the discussion to the other side. That's pretty much the definition of whataboutism.

I didn't put forward Kammenos' words as something that needed to be condemned or apologized for. His words were not shared in connection to Oktay's words either. You seem to be confusing Dimitris with Panos...

Isn't this about the rights of the two nations regarding the eastern Mediterranean basin, including Kastellorizo's territorial waters? Unless you have a mod's badge, what you are attempting is vigilante moderating.

The video you posted is about the Aegean. This thread is about the area south of Kastellorizo which falls outside of the Aegean sea.

[ioannis76]

Some of you probably remember the crash of an Greek AH-64:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They were training this tactic:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the weeks and months before the war, the Apache's Bravo Company had developed new tactics that they hoped to use against Iraqi tanks and armored vehicles. The Apache helicopter was a ground-attack aircraft; tanks and fighting vehicles were its principal targets. The tactics developed by Bravo Company pilots were considerably different from the ones they had practiced in Europe. There the Apache pilots had been trained to fly low, using hills for cover, and popping up to fire. In the desert there were few hills high enough for the Apaches to hide behind. To compensate, Bravo Company had devised what they called high-energy and low-energy tactics. In both approaches the pilots lined up their six helicopters shoulder to shoulder, in three teams of two. In low-energy tactics, the two helicopters in a team would fly 300 to 500 meters apart; there would be an 800-to 1,000 meter spread between teams. The helicopers flew just 30 feet off the ground, creeping forward just fast enough to leave the dust from their rotor wash behind them. It was not foolproof, but in the relative flatness of the desert terrain, the tactic gave the Apache pilots as much of a chance to pull off a surprise attack as they could reasonably hope for.

Low-energy tactics were for nighttime, when they were nearly invisible. The high-energy tactics were for daytime use, when they would want to move faster. They called for the two-Apache teams to spread out with about 1 1/2 kilometers between them. Then they would circle and fly in at the target at speeds of 40 miles an hour. The idea was to get close, shoot, and get away fast.
Laser guided the Hellfire anti-tank missiles. The Apaches' 30-mm gun was also laser-directed. The laser accounted for the speed of the aircraft, the wind, and the aircraft's movement for seven seconds prior to firing. Attached to the pilot's helmet was a two-inch-square semi-transparent monocle that extended about an inch or two in front of the pilot's right eye. Projected onto the monocle was the targeting information that came from the Apache's infrared targeting systems. There was also a cross hair-type targeting device. All of the Apache's weapons systems were linked electronically to the monocle. All a weapons officer had to do was look at a target, lay the cross hairs on it, and fire his weapon of choice.

Source: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ns/apache.html

Instead of getting for example Bell AH-1 SuperCobra or even Eurocopter Tiger which would be more suitable for the aegean sea they got these devasteous Machines for only one purpose - Invading Minor Asia on a Mass Assault.

But of course if somehow for example Turkey is making a simple military drill we would already see how this Topic would be flooded with Articles from some Websites in Greek Language. The problem here is obvious that the Greek Side cannot Agree with a Turkey which would be equal in their Rights with them. They still have the delusional thinking (not all of them) but more then a few that somehow Europe or the Western World must worship them since they are the heir and descendants of ancient Greeks.

It looks more obviously that the current Greek State (if we even can consider it as a State) had changes in his forms in the nearly past but still remained the one idea "Megali Idea" probably the only Earth on planets where democratic views are tied with such extremism.

For example we got another proof of that in the young past when former Prime Minister of Greece "Andreas Papandreou" meet with former President of Syria (Assad Clan Leader) "Hafez al-Assad" on 1984 where they discussed the future of Hatay Province of Turkey. (https://www.jta.org/1984/11/06/archi...-visited-libya)

While Turkey thought in the first that the terrorists were armed from Soviet Union since their Equipment was in a outstanding condition for that time for a Militia kind of a Guerilla Group they later came after that they were armed by Syria but trained of course in Greece.(https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/cia-...-groups/734178)

Did even Greece take any kind of responsibility in that case? Of course not as usual.

LOL, the Apache is specifically designed to invade Minor Asia. And this, coming from a country that calls for the demilitarization of Greek islands, while at the same time maintaining a fleet of landing ships just opposite said islands. Really, this is the typical attitude of a bully country. Only a bully country will go after someone it considers to be weak or weakened. Turkey is the only country that demands the demilitarization of areas she plans to invade.
As for the right of Greece to militarize the islands, it is in fact with the blessings of the National Assembly of Turkey that some of the islands are militarized. Were they expressing their opinions, too? Here is the answer of the Hellenic ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding the militarization:
https://www.mfa.gr/en/issues-of-gree...egean-sea.html

Kastelorizo is not mentioned anywhere as part of Greece's obligations to demilitarize it. We can keep one thousand main battle tanks on it, if we want to.

[PointOfViewGun]

LOL, the Apache is specifically designed to invade Minor Asia. And this, coming from a country that calls for the demilitarization of Greek islands, while at the same time maintaining a fleet of landing ships just opposite said islands. Really, this is the typical attitude of a bully country. Only a bully country will go after someone it considers to be weak or weakened. Turkey is the only country that demands the demilitarization of areas she plans to invade.
As for the right of Greece to militarize the islands, it is in fact with the blessings of the National Assembly of Turkey that some of the islands are militarized. Were they expressing their opinions, too? Here is the answer of the Hellenic ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding the militarization:
https://www.mfa.gr/en/issues-of-gree...egean-sea.html

Kastelorizo is not mentioned anywhere as part of Greece's obligations to demilitarize it. We can keep one thousand main battle tanks on it, if we want to.

Interesting link from the Greek foreign ministry. They're pointing out that Turkey, which is the only neighbor to Greece in the region, is the only country to refer to the demilitarization of the islands covered by international treaties. What an intelligent argument... Of course, when they try to paint Turkey as an aggressor they fail to mention the capture of PKK's leader, an organization deemed as a terrorist group by EU and USA, leaving Greek embassy with a Greek Cypriot passport, among other issues.

How you manage to tie militarization of islands like Kastellorizo to Turkish parliament is beyond me. The fact that you're making it vague is likely a testament to you not being sure about that point. However, Kastellorizo is mentioned in that link you provide as it is regarded as part of the Dodecanese islands. Treaty of Peace with Italy, 1947, does name Kastellorizo by name, and deems it to be demilitarized. No, Greece can not, under the law, put one thousand main battle tanks on the island.

I love that bold part though. Its the norm to argue in favor of Greece that they should exploit the weakness of Turkey under the AKP regime. Yet, here you are, claiming that very same approach to be the tactic of a bully. Thank you for that.

[Nebaki]

LOL, the Apache is specifically designed to invade Minor Asia.

Where did you read that? I just mentioned that there are more suitable products then the Apache for a Country who relies so much on the Sea. Again you just write and understand things as you believe them in your fantasy.

coming from a country that calls for the demilitarization of Greek islands, while at the same time maintaining a fleet of landing ships just opposite said islands. Really, this is the typical attitude of a bully country. Only a bully country will go after someone it considers to be weak or weakened. Turkey is the only country that demands the demilitarization of areas she plans to invade.

Turkey is not purchasing or even ordering neither maintaining these landing ships just because of Greece. Who is the bully here is really obvious.

As for the right of Greece to militarize the islands, it is in fact with the blessings of the National Assembly of Turkey that some of the islands are militarized. Were they expressing their opinions, too? Here is the answer of the Hellenic ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding the militarization:
https://www.mfa.gr/en/issues-of-gree...egean-sea.html

Kastelorizo is not mentioned anywhere as part of Greece's obligations to demilitarize it. We can keep one thousand main battle tanks on it, if we want to.

Wow Hellenic ministry of Foreign Affairs just ignores the Treaties that his country on his own - even the Paris Peace Treaty is referring to Treaty of Lausanne but of course as a guy who is obviously bullied by the recent actions of Turkey ones again your showed your behaviour in this case.

Without even screeching like "Help Greece European Union or we will not prevent the Refugees going further into Europe" i don´t think that someone even really takes Greece seriously. Greece has zero rights in militarizing these islands which are so close to Turkey and also been classified as a demilitarized Zone. With demilitarized you ones again opened up the suggestion about the sovereignty of these Islands.

Another funny thing is that some Greeks in their fantasy think that Kastelorizo having an EEZ of 4000% then it´s own Size - a Island which is not even 2km away from Turkey .

[ioannis76]

Turkey is not purchasing or even ordering neither maintaining these landing ships just because of Greece. Who is the bully here is really obvious.

You don't say...
And yet, here I read "Bayraktar-class tank landing ship" "Built: 2014–2018 In commission: 2017-present"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayrak...k_landing_ship

Turkey built two only 2 years ago.
Do you think I don't read anything about military affairs? This is getting insulting.

[PointOfViewGun]

Southern Cyprus is currently holding EU hostage over sanctions to Turkey. They are not refusing to sign on sanctions against Belarus if they don't sign on sanctions against Turkey because of the Mediterranean dispute.

EU fails to agree on Belarus sanctions after Cyprus blocks plan

European foreign ministers have failed to break the deadlock over sanctions on Belarus, after Cyprus blocked the plan citing the lack of EU action against Turkey.
Nearly one month after the EU took a political decision to sanction Belarusian officials accused of falsifying the 9 August presidential poll and orchestrating a brutal crackdown on peaceful protesters, the bloc failed to agree the legal text.
The Cypriot government refused to sign, unless the EU moves to impose sanctions on Turkey over its drilling in the contested waters of the eastern Mediterranean.
“It’s not a secret for anyone that we don’t have unanimity because one country has not participated in the consensus,” the EU’s foreign policy chief, Josep Borrell, told journalists, adding that he hoped to see agreement at the next EU foreign ministers’ meeting on 12 October. “I understand perfectly that our credibility is at stake.”

[PointOfViewGun]

U.S. Embassy in Turkey just shared the following message on Twitter:



The Seville map in question is akin to the following:



It was produced by a professor from Seville university with request from Greece. Ever since, Greece used this map to visualize its claim.

[Nebaki]

Southern Cyprus is currently holding EU hostage over sanctions to Turkey. They are not refusing to sign on sanctions against Belarus if they don't sign on sanctions against Turkey because of the Mediterranean dispute.

EU fails to agree on Belarus sanctions after Cyprus blocks plan

Same Southern Cyprus which even grabs territory from rightful Israeli EEZ. How can Southern Cyprus having more EEZ in the east Mediterranean Syria, Lebanon or Israel? even the part with Egypt is really funny.

The Seville map in question is akin to the following:



It was produced by a professor from Seville university with request from Greece. Ever since, Greece used this map to visualize its claim.

Sweet wet dreams of Greeks and will be nothing beyond that.

[ioannis76]

US Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt: Greek islands are entitled to a continental shelf and an EEZ

https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/06/2...lf-and-an-eez/



I guess he was expressing his personal opinion, according to Turkey...
btw, along with the Spike NLOS (Israel), which may already be on the islands, the HAF is also receiving the Rampage missile (again Israel).

[Alastor]

Southern Cyprus is currently holding EU hostage over sanctions to Turkey. They are not refusing to sign on sanctions against Belarus if they don't sign on sanctions against Turkey because of the Mediterranean dispute.

EU fails to agree on Belarus sanctions after Cyprus blocks plan

Cyprus, not "southern Cyprus". And good on them. The EU should deal with its issues at home first, after those are taken care of then it will have the credibility (and momentum) to preach abroad.

[ioannis76]

Cyprus, not "southern Cyprus". And good on them. The EU should deal with its issues at home first, after those are taken care of then it will have the credibility (and momentum) to preach abroad.

Hopefully, Greece will support Cyprus's move, and at least some form of sanctions (I don't have high hopes such as the reevaluation of the Turkey-EU border deal), will be imposed.
Meanwhile, Erdogan is going to complain to Merkel, because Greece erected a gigantic cross in the area of Vissa in the Greek Turkish border. And the funny thing is that Turkey is accusing Greece of "childish behaviour". Interesting to see that Turkey is basically trying to make a satellite state out of Greece, as Turkey wants to have a say where Greece places its troops, what Greece builds and where, etc. But this is the kind of behaviour they have due to the "leniency" and the Greek defensive attitude over the years. This is what we get.
https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/09/2...er-videos/?amp

[PointOfViewGun]

I thought this was a joke but it wasn't. Greece did erect a giant cross on the Turkish border.



The consecration ceremony was attended by Greek generals:



Imagine the storm something like this would cause if it was Turks doing something similar on the Greek border...

[ioannis76]

I thought this was a joke but it wasn't. Greece did erect a giant cross on the Turkish border.



The consecration ceremony was attended by Greek generals:



Imagine the storm something like this would cause if it was Turks doing something similar on the Greek border...

You are comparing something that DID happen (the storm it caused in Turkey) with something YOU IMAGINE would happen, as two equal things.
So, do the Greeks need to ask permission from Turkey to build?

[PointOfViewGun]

Here is the actual Seville map that I referred to earlier:

You are comparing something that DID happen (the storm it caused in Turkey) with something YOU IMAGINE would happen, as two equal things.
So, do the Greeks need to ask permission from Turkey to build?

As someone who has his eyes on the news 24/7 I can easily say that it did not cause a storm in Turkey. If the same happened in Turkey somebody would likely be here yelling how Turkey was declaring a jihad on Greece.

[Nebaki]

The EU should deal with its issues at home first, after those are taken care of then it will have the credibility (and momentum) to preach abroad.

The EU is not a Fanclub of worshipping idiots of greek interests, without even the EU there would be already a famine in Greece and South Cyprus. This Belarus thing was a great opportunity for EU to cut ties with Russia economically ones again to stop projects like the ongoing Nord Stream 2. Of course this is more favour for USA then anything else but also EU don´t wants to be dependent from Russa. Who ruined this now? some greek cypriots which would starve without the help from EU.

Cyprus, not "southern Cyprus".

Of course it is Southern Cyprus and here is the proof from Northern Cyprus:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Alastor]

The EU is not a Fanclub of worshipping idiots of greek interests, without even the EU there would be already a famine in Greece and South Cyprus. This Belarus thing was a great opportunity for EU to cut ties with Russia economically ones again to stop projects like the ongoing Nord Stream 2. Of course this is more favour for USA then anything else but also EU don´t wants to be dependent from Russa. Who ruined this now? some greek cypriots which would starve without the help from EU.

Maybe not, but it is an international organization/union that does have members. And guess what, Cyprus is one such member. As such it is indeed the Greek interests it should look after, not the US ones, certainly not the Turkish ones, as neither states are members.

Of course it is Southern Cyprus and here is the proof from Northern Cyprus:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You know even the article that was quoted said Cyprus. Do you want me to show you the wikipedia page? It also says Cyprus. Just because Turkey invaded and illegally occupies the northern third of the island it doesn't mean it can also dictate what the state is called.

Oh and BTW I love the hissy fit about a cross, erected in Greek lands and inaugurated on a day celebrating the cross. When Turkey puts that monstrosity on the Kyrenia mountains, aka illegally occupied territory, for all to see... and inaugurates it on a Greek national holiday (28th Oct). So yeah, do tell me how it is Greece that is provoking Turkey again, delusional talk has never been more banal.