The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

[ioannis76]

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...84478875951104

Turkey will pluck out Greece's eye, if Greece doesn't respect Turkey's rights IN THE ISLANDS. Which islands is he talking about?

[ioannis76]

http://en.protothema.gr/yeni-safak-t...greek-islands/

Yeni Safak is the mouthpiece of Erdogan. What this practically means, is that Turkey should give an ultimatum to Greece to become a turkish puppet, basically ceding control to Turkey of the whole Aegean sea area and south of Crete.

[Tureuki]

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...84478875951104

Turkey will pluck out Greece's eye, if Greece doesn't respect Turkey's rights IN THE ISLANDS. Which islands is he talking about?

I know you don't speak Turkish, but you should at least catch the part in which he is supposed to say "islands" according to subtitles he says ADALAR DENİZİ aka Sea of Islands, that is an alternative name for Aegean sea. He is talking about Turkey's rights in the Aegean sea, not the islands themselves or their sovereignty.

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ege_Denizi

You guys were skeptical before because of your lack of Turkish knowlodge, i hope this gives a more clear idea about the tricks of Gulenists.

[ioannis76]

I know you don't speak Turkish, but you should at least catch the part in which he is supposed to say "islands" according to subtitles he says ADALAR DENİZİ aka Sea of Islands, that is an alternative name for Aegean sea. He is talking about Turkey's rights in the Aegean sea, not the islands themselves or their sovereignty.

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ege_Denizi

You guys were skeptical before because of your lack of Turkish knowlodge, i hope this gives a more clear idea about the tricks of Gulenists.

Thank you for clarifying it, but unless he's talking about the two islands Imvros and Tenedos, or islands/islets within the 3 mile distance from the minor asian coast, he's talking about Greek islands.
What "rights" Turkey thinks she has in Hellenic sovereignty, is beyond me.

[Tureuki]

He is not talking about the islands, he is talking about the sea, the whole Turkish argument revolves around the EEZ rights of certain islands which can be a lot more blurry and open to negotations compared to sovereignty of land. You don't have to like the idea, we don't care.

And despite his feud with the AKP, this guy is still Turkish yet it doesn't holds him off from openly twisting words and blatantly lying in order to besmear Turkey, imagine just how much BS non-Turkish media feeds to the people.

[ioannis76]

He is not talking about the islands, he is talking about the sea, the whole Turkish argument revolves around the EEZ rights of certain islands which can be a lot more blurry and open to negotations compared to sovereignty of land. You don't have to like the idea, we don't care.

And despite his feud with the AKP, this guy is still Turkish yet it doesn't holds him off from openly twisting words and blatantly lying in order to besmear Turkey, imagine just how much BS non-Turkish media feeds to the people.

So, the whole sea around the island can be Turkish, but the island will remain Greek. I don't think this is too feasible.
Besides, after the "Smyrni march" a few days ago, where the opposition demanded a renegotiation of the Dodecanese ownership, I think that Turkey's intentions were preeeety clear for anyone to see. It's a renegotiation of the status quo in the Aegean (land masses included) at the expense of Greece.

[ioannis76]

And here is the newspiece:
http://www.diken.com.tr/mhpden-9-eyl...rlendirilmeli/

And the translation:

"The status of the Twelve Islands should be re-evaluated"

Twelve Islands=Dodecanese.

In red is the Dodecanese Prefecture of Greece:

[Tureuki]

Inner politics of every country has a realism section and a thrash section, the thrash section contains arguments that are used to move the dumber portions of voter base, usually the extreme rightists, those arguments almost never become the state policy, politicians say whatever is needed to increase the votes they receive, and when they come to power they still follow the rules of realism, it is pointless to even discuss that statement, Bahçeli says cringy things everyday.

[ioannis76]

Inner politics of every country has a realism section and a thrash section, the thrash section contains arguments that are used to move the dumber portions of voter base, usually the extreme rightists, those arguments almost never become the state policy, politicians say whatever is needed to increase the votes they receive, and when they come to power they still follow the rules of realism, it is pointless to even discuss that statement, Bahçeli says cringy things everyday.

I agree with you. So, who, in Turkey represents the realism section? Because, today Erdogan and his government again threatened France and Greece:

He told Greeks "not to wander around the islands (LOLWUT?):

Erdogan did not forget Greece either: “Look at what Greece is doing now with the islands. How can one trust them? Do not wander around the islands. You are wrong and you will be left alone”.

and he said that Macron "will have a bigger problem with him personally". Is he going to call Macron in some parking lot so they can fight?

Akar, the Turkish ministry of Defense, said that "Greece should shut up or Greece will become a snack"

http://en.protothema.gr/unbelievable...sts-of-others/

A Greek minister replied that "if your not around the table, you're in the plate", apparently hinting at the fact that Turkey was absent from the MED7 meeting. It was about time to give an answer to those ridiculous statements.

So, again, who in Turkey represents the realistic side?

[PointOfViewGun]

Turkey's Oruc Reis survey vessel back near southern shore, ship tracker shows

ISTANBUL/ATHENS (Reuters) - Turkey’s seismic research vessel Oruc Reis returned to waters near the southern province of Antalya on Sunday, Refinitiv data showed, a move Greece said was a positive first step in easing tensions over offshore natural resources.

But Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar played down the significance of the move, saying the ship had returned to shore as part of scheduled plans.

The research ship is back in Antalya after a month and a half long mission. For a few weeks, Greece have been refusing to join talks with Turkey to deescalate. They have went as far as snubbing the NATO announcement that the talks were happening. As far as I know, the French aircraft carrier never get to the region as well. Now, Greece has no excuse.

Meanwhile, there are talks of Greece buying 18 Rafale jets as well as 4 frigates and 4 navy helicopters from France. Perhaps, the French contribution to the whole ordeal was a ploy to get Greece to move forward with a purchase that they've been mulling for years.

[Nebaki]

The research ship is back in Antalya after a month and a half long mission. For a few weeks, Greece have been refusing to join talks with Turkey to deescalate. They have went as far as snubbing the NATO announcement that the talks were happening. As far as I know, the French aircraft carrier never get to the region as well. Now, Greece has no excuse.

They just try to leave out Turkey by bringing the Issue in talk on EU basis.

Meanwhile, there are talks of Greece buying 18 Rafale jets as well as 4 frigates and 4 navy helicopters from France. Perhaps, the French contribution to the whole ordeal was a ploy to get Greece to move forward with a purchase that they've been mulling for years.

Well those second-hand Rafales will probably replace their aging Mirage Fleet on Tanagra "332 Mira “Geraki” (https://www.milavia.net/specials/haf-114-combat-wing/) but those purchase of these frigates are totally political then really adding value to the Hellenic Navy.

[Nebaki]

Greece published a new Navtex message:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

NOTICE TO ALL MARINERS.HELLENIC TERRITORIAL SEA
AND AEGEAN'S HIGH SEAS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN
SAFE AND SECURE FOR SEAFARERS. TURKEY HAS
REPEATEDLY EXPLOITED THE NAVTEX WARNING
SYSTEM TO PROMOTE HER REVISIONIST NATIONAL
AGENDA REGARDING THE STATUS OF THE AEGEAN,
TO THE DETRIMENT OF SAFETY OF MARINERS.
THE HELLENIC AUTHORITIES DENOUNCE SUCH
PRACTICES AND UNDERLINE THAT THE HELLENIC
COASTGUARD STANDS READY TO PROTECT LIFE
AT SEA,SAFEGUARD THE FREEDOM OF NAVIGATION
AND PREVENT ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY AT SEA,
ALONG WITH THE INTERESTS OF THE INTERNATIONAL
SHIPPING COMMUNITY AND ENFORCE THE RULE OF
THE LAW OF THE SEA.

That part of "enforce the rule of the law of the sea" is more then ridiculous.

Source: https://www.hnhs.gr/en/online-2/navtex

[ioannis76]

Greece published a new Navtex message:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

NOTICE TO ALL MARINERS.HELLENIC TERRITORIAL SEA
AND AEGEAN'S HIGH SEAS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN
SAFE AND SECURE FOR SEAFARERS. TURKEY HAS
REPEATEDLY EXPLOITED THE NAVTEX WARNING
SYSTEM TO PROMOTE HER REVISIONIST NATIONAL
AGENDA REGARDING THE STATUS OF THE AEGEAN,
TO THE DETRIMENT OF SAFETY OF MARINERS.
THE HELLENIC AUTHORITIES DENOUNCE SUCH
PRACTICES AND UNDERLINE THAT THE HELLENIC
COASTGUARD STANDS READY TO PROTECT LIFE
AT SEA,SAFEGUARD THE FREEDOM OF NAVIGATION
AND PREVENT ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY AT SEA,
ALONG WITH THE INTERESTS OF THE INTERNATIONAL
SHIPPING COMMUNITY AND ENFORCE THE RULE OF
THE LAW OF THE SEA.

That part of "enforce the rule of the law of the sea" is more then ridiculous.

Source: https://www.hnhs.gr/en/online-2/navtex

What is ridiculous is for Turkey to set sovereignty rights in 152 islands, some of which are inhabited, at the same time when Turkey has signed that she is not entitled to any islands outside of the 3 mile radius off her coast, except Imvros and Tenedos. As Turkey clearly violates the Treaties, it is Greece's right to defend herself.
It's really funny to speak of ridiculous actions when Erdogan, wants to have a say in which islands Greeks will go and where they won't go.

https://www.protothema.gr/english-ne...d-the-islands/



But no more ridiculous than claiming that Turkey is going to sink the Charles De Gaulle. The only thing that is sinking in Turkey is the lira.

[ioannis76]

The research ship is back in Antalya after a month and a half long mission. For a few weeks, Greece have been refusing to join talks with Turkey to deescalate. They have went as far as snubbing the NATO announcement that the talks were happening. As far as I know, the French aircraft carrier never get to the region as well. Now, Greece has no excuse.

One of the demands of Tukrey is the demilitarization of our islands. Of course, we are not going to demilitarize the very islands that Turkey threatens and whose sovereignty it questions. Furthermore, the treaty that spoke of the demilitarization is the Threaty of Paris, of 1947, of which Turkey is not a contributary, and therefore doesn't get to say anything on.
After the provocative statements and actions that Turkey has committed, I personally see no point in any talks with this country. What's there to discuss? Which of the 152 of our islands we're going to give our enemy?

As for the DeGaulle:

https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/09/1...craft-carrier/

6 days ago. It's set to come to the region. But the Oruc Reis has left the area for "maintenance".

[PointOfViewGun]

One of the demands of Tukrey is the demilitarization of our islands. Of course, we are not going to demilitarize the very islands that Turkey threatens and whose sovereignty it questions. Furthermore, the treaty that spoke of the demilitarization is the Threaty of Paris, of 1947, of which Turkey is not a contributary, and therefore doesn't get to say anything on.
After the provocative statements and actions that Turkey has committed, I personally see no point in any talks with this country. What's there to discuss? Which of the 152 of our islands we're going to give our enemy?

Turkey doesn't question the sovereignty of Kastellorizo. It questions the extent of its EEZ. At no point in history did the Turkish government claimed sovereignty over the island. By your logic Greece is not a country to be negotiated with since the leader of an organization designated as a terrorist group by EU and USA was caught leaving a Greek embassy with a Greek Cypriot passport.

[PointOfViewGun]

The Turkish foreign minister wrote an article for the Greek Ekathimerini today. If anyone needs an official position this is it:

Cavusoglu: Our preference is diplomacy without preconditions

The Mediterranean has always been the cradle of civilization as well as a basin of constant cultural and economic interaction. In this geography our past, present and future are inextricably intertwined. Turkey and Greece have always had only two choices: lock horns in a way that hurts both of us or find a win-win formula to define a mutually beneficial way forward.

The logic of “permanent neighbor” naturally entails mutual respect for each other’s rights. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case for what we experience in Turkey these days. Such mutual respect in turn should manifest itself in a sense of obligation to solve all pending issues or outstanding conflicts through peaceful means and dialogue. In such a spirit, neighbors do not seek escalation, but seek direct diplomacy and dialogue in good faith and with an aim for genuine dispute resolution.

Recently, governments like that of France have been displaying an ill-advised yearning for their colonialist past. Did we really forget so quickly that the colonial period brought nothing but enormous pain and suffering for so many peoples? The pattern of accepted behavior of the metropolitan masters imposing their will on the periphery is over. Our president is advocating that “the world is bigger than five” to call for a more equitable international order. We designate our foreign policy as enterprising and humanitarian to underscore the values we want to prevail and our tirelessness and creativity in pursuing them, all in service of the dictum of “peace at home, peace in the world” formulated by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Eleftherios Venizelos. That is why we underscore mutual respect and equitable solutions to problems.

That is why Turkey supports NATO’s initiative toward deconfliction and Germany’s initiative for de-escalation with the ultimate aim of reviving the already established bilateral mechanisms between Turkey and Greece. We hope that Athens understand that those are two different things. Turkey respects Greece enough not to want to negotiate and agree with other parties over issues that must be settled directly between the two neighbors.

Our basic objectives in the Eastern Mediterranean are clear: fair and equitable delimitation of maritime boundaries; protection of our continental shelf rights against maximalist and excessive maritime boundary claims; protection of Turkish Cypriots’ equal rights over the offshore resources of the island through the establishment of equitable revenue sharing mechanism; creation of genuine, inclusive, fair and equitable offshore energy cooperation mechanisms with the participation of all parties, including the Turkish Cypriots (proposals to this end are still on the table) in the Eastern Mediterranean.

A string of maximalist claims cannot be imposed upon Turkey through the EU, which has no competence over maritime boundary delimitation. You don’t get to cut off Turkey’s access to high seas and to its own maritime zones by claiming 40,000 square kilometers of continental shelf for a tiny island like Meis or Kastellorizo that is only 2 kilometers away from Turkey and 580 km from the Greek mainland. No law nor logic nor a basic sense of fairness would allow an opposite argument. Furthermore, attempts toward excluding a country like Turkey – with the longest relevant coastline in the region, a growing population, production capacity, and increasing energy demand – from the riches of its own neighborhood are not realistic either. As we said several times – that shall not happen.

Therefore Turkey will naturally be firm in not allowing attempts to harm its fundamental interests. We maintain a naval presence in the region not for offensive ends, but for self-defense against interference with our seismic research activities within our own continental shelf (that was declared in accordance with international law as far back as 16 years ago, by the way!). Dialogue and negotiations are indeed the first and foremost means in international law to address maritime boundary issues. We thus expect Greece to revive all dialogue channels with Turkey without any preconditions. Preconditions beget counter-preconditions (believe me, we could come up with quite a few of our own) and thus are not a good way to seek talks between two neighbors.

Every crisis may create an opportunity and we must seize it to move ahead peacefully. It is evident that any negotiation process should include an exercise of give and take. The alternative is sweeping the problems under the carpet and hoping they go away or somebody else solves them for you. However, problems tend to get ever more complicated as time goes by, let alone disappear on their own. We need strong, effective and rational leadership in order to hand down peace and security to future generations. That exists on the Turkish side. What we do today will define not only today but also tomorrow and you know all too well that Turkey can go whichever way Greece chooses. The choice is in fact not that of Turkey nor France nor anyone else for that matter but of the esteemed leaders and people of Greece.

[Nebaki]

Turkey doesn't question the sovereignty of Kastellorizo. It questions the extent of its EEZ. At no point in history did the Turkish government claimed sovereignty over the island. By your logic Greece is not a country to be negotiated with since the leader of an organization designated as a terrorist group by EU and USA was caught leaving a Greek embassy with a Greek Cypriot passport.

If you want to discuss with him on his own level your replies would be like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Regardless of that it´s known that his views are very greek-centric and can be easily traced back to their own education system which even includes Anti-Turkism. You just need watch his reply history and his conclusions, we even got this Thread because of him and even some facts are even being discussed there he brings again and again same old things up: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

[ioannis76]

Turkey doesn't question the sovereignty of Kastellorizo. It questions the extent of its EEZ. At no point in history did the Turkish government claimed sovereignty over the island. By your logic Greece is not a country to be negotiated with since the leader of an organization designated as a terrorist group by EU and USA was caught leaving a Greek embassy with a Greek Cypriot passport.

You are lying, or you haven't heard the interview of the Vice President of Turkey, Oktai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0uyURjwxNQ

Oktai, the vice president of Turkey directly questioned the Hellenic sovereignty of Kastelorizo. At 51:20, he says "there are lots of questions over here (pointing to Kastelorizo on the map) After the Fisrst World War many (....) islands were given to Greece. There were some islands, we call them "Twelve Islands" I guess (the Dodecanese), they were questionable areas including the Meis (he refers to Kastelorizo)> Then, somehow, that belonged (to) Italy, claimed that belonged to Italy. We did not have an agreement on that. Later on, 1930s, some agreement was made, and all of a sudden, in 1947, those islands, including Meis (Kastelorizo) were given, after the second world war, to Greece. By whom? By Italy. Italy doesn't own the islands. Italy doesn't have the right to give those islands, and Meis (Kastelorizo) to Greece."

I don't know about you, but to me it sounds A LOT like questioning the sovereignty of the island Kastelorizo.

[PointOfViewGun]

You are lying, or you haven't heard the interview of the Vice President of Turkey, Oktai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0uyURjwxNQ

Oktai, the vice president of Turkey directly questioned the Hellenic sovereignty of Kastelorizo. At 51:20, he says "there are lots of questions over here (pointing to Kastelorizo on the map) After the Fisrst World War many (....) islands were given to Greece. There were some islands, we call them "Twelve Islands" I guess (the Dodecanese), they were questionable areas including the Meis (he refers to Kastelorizo)> Then, somehow, that belonged (to) Italy, claimed that belonged to Italy. We did not have an agreement on that. Later on, 1930s, some agreement was made, and all of a sudden, in 1947, those islands, including Meis (Kastelorizo) were given, after the second world war, to Greece. By whom? By Italy. Italy doesn't own the islands. Italy doesn't have the right to give those islands, and Meis (Kastelorizo) to Greece."

I don't know about you, but to me it sounds A LOT like questioning the sovereignty of the island Kastelorizo.

I really am not. There is no official Turkish position that questions the ownership of Kastellorizo. Fuat Oktay's comments are his own opinion. His comments doesn't dictate official Turkish position. It's no different than Greek politicians lamenting about having a right to İzmir or İstanbul. So, no, again, Turkey doesn't question the sovereignty of Kastellorizo. Never did. You're merely grasping at straws.

[Vanoi]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN2640ZL

Looks like the US is cozying up to Cyprus and ending the decades long arms embargo placed on them. Turkey has not reacted well to the news but thats expected.