The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

[ioannis76]

Turkey does not have a properly functioning bureaucracy to claim an "official statement".

Politics is made by those who are in power. That includes Erdoğan, his advisor circle, the factions he has to lend his ears to control the country (gray wolves, eurasianists, various Islamic cults...etc).

Announcements coming from Bahçeli, these Eurasianist circles as well Erdoğan's advisors are not just some random statements made by a parliament member. So Greece has every right to consider these as Turkey's potential position. Not to mention that within the public discourse or media, even worse things are being said for a very long time.

Erdoğan himself has many times made expansionist talks, though he did not directly say we will go and take these islands.

In anycase, from a rational perspective, given the coalition at the helm of Turkey and the structure of Turkish politics, the deduction of a potential military threat is quite sensible.

Thank you.

Is there a reason why you failed to respond to any questions I asked?

Yes, the point that many of the posts you make demonstrate a complete inability to hold a reasonable conversation, since your posts have never accepted any other opinions except your own. One points out to you something and your posts keep attempting to move the discussion in circles or attempt to hold on to insignificant details. That's no way to have a discussion. Unless you change that attitude, I refuse to discuss with you.

[ioannis76]

A member of the Government of a country expresses the official position of the Government of said country when he makes statements. If he expresses "his own opinion", and this "opinion" is different and than and not endorsed by the government in which he/she participates, then the Government denounces this opinion, and usually also sacks said member.
That's how it works.
In our case, if Oktai's statement was NOT in accordance to the official positions of the Turkish Government, then the statement should have been denounced and/or Oktai should have been removed from office. Neither of those took place, therefore the statement stands as official position of the Turkish Government.

[PointOfViewGun]

A member of the Government of a country expresses the official position of the Government of said country when he makes statements. If he expresses "his own opinion", and this "opinion" is different and than and not endorsed by the government in which he/she participates, then the Government denounces this opinion, and usually also sacks said member.
That's how it works.
In our case, if Oktai's statement was NOT in accordance to the official positions of the Turkish Government, then the statement should have been denounced and/or Oktai should have been removed from office. Neither of those took place, therefore the statement stands as official position of the Turkish Government.

By that logic, Greece officially threatened EU with sending terrorists to other EU member countries, per the comments of the defense minister of the time, Panos Kammenos. You can cling to such off-handed remarks. The reality is that Turkey never made claims on the island of Kastellorizo's sovereignty.

[ioannis76]

By that logic, Greece officially threatened EU with sending terrorists to other EU member countries, per the comments of the defense minister of the time, Panos Kammenos. You can cling to such off-handed remarks. The reality is that Turkey never made claims on the island of Kastellorizo's sovereignty.

Turkey has made claims not only on the island of Kastelorizo, but also on more (some 150) islands of Hellenic sovereignty. From the turkish newspapers (which are controlled by Erdogan, and run the risk of having their journalists arrested if they publish things that Erdo doesn't like) trying to create a warlike environment, to members of the Government such as Vice President of the Turkish Republic Fuat Oktai, the sovereignty of islands (Kastelorizo included) is very much questioned.
As for Kammenos, yes, he threatened to send the jihadists that Turkey is sending Greece to the EU, and the Government rightly received flak for that, both from the EU and the Greek opposition. In Turkey, of course, the opposition will merely ask why it is that the government demands X number of islands and not more. It's quite ridiculous to see Turkey whining for the militarisation of islands she plans so overtly to conquer and eradicate the Greek populations, just like they did with all areas under turkish control.

[Nebaki]

Is that why the Turks are so scared to attack Sirte? Let me know when Turkey grows a pair and crosses that red line.

How did you came to that conclusion? by some twitter posts in Arabic which you even don´t understand?

Btw Greek Media be like:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Reflects really how some "Users" in this Thread are behave.

[Alastor]

By that logic, Greece officially threatened EU with sending terrorists to other EU member countries, per the comments of the defense minister of the time, Panos Kammenos. You can cling to such off-handed remarks. The reality is that Turkey never made claims on the island of Kastellorizo's sovereignty.

Only the Greek government explicitly stated that Kammenos did not represent their position, unless you have proof the Turkish government has done the same in Oktay's case, then both you and this weak whataboutism have no leg to stand on.
https://www.newsweek.com/greece-back...germany-313717

[ioannis76]

And even more love from Turkey:

There is a power station right next to the airport.

This place provides all the electricity of the island, it works with diesel.

Chimneys are red and white!

Probably after this article they will paint it in another color …

Because it looks like a Turkish flag planted on the island.

★

Set up howitzer in Çeşme, hit this power plant, the island falls into a coma.

We don’t even need to bother and subtract.

https://www.world-today-news.com/yil...zcu-newspaper/

A turkish journalist even says how "easy" it would be to put a Greek island (a large Greek island, Chios) into a coma. No, not warlike at all. Funny thing is, this journalist must be one of the Kemalists.

How did you came to that conclusion? by some twitter posts in Arabic which you even don´t understand?

We see how the brave turkish military is reclaiming the "turkish" islands. I already told you, there is a reason that the vast majority of the islands is Greek. They were liberated by the Hellenic navy. The Ottoman and later Turkish navy couldn't hold them. Kemal realised this early on, and he signed the Lausanne Treaty, in which he clearly stated that he doesn't lay claim to any island farther out than 3 nm from the Minor Asian coast (except Imvros and Tenedos). Regarding the Demilitarization status, this is not in the Lausanne Treaty, but in the Paris Treaty, of 1947 (if I recall correctly). In any case, Turkey was not part of THAT treaty, and therefore has no say in it. Simple as that.

https://twitter.com/HalisTuncENG/sta...39778218577931

Ex-Rear Admiral Cihat Yaycı known as architect of Libya-Turkey EEZ Agreement:

Turkey should apply blockade to one or two the easternmost Greek islands.

Turkey should close the Straits to the Greek ships based on the 1936 Montreux Convention.
Both point to the desire for war!

And I think that they are talking about Kastelorizo, because of the "Meis abluka" ie "Kastelorizo blockade" phrase.

[Nebaki]

We see how the brave turkish military is reclaiming the "turkish" islands. I already told you, there is a reason that the vast majority of the islands is Greek. They were liberated by the Hellenic navy....

We even know how Hellenic navy (if there was really even back that time something that can be considered as a navy) Crete&Co. liberated. Stop that misleading which your fantasy persuades in your thougths.

@dogukan

Love how you everytime came when something is Turkey related which you use an excuse to blame any turkish nationalistic movement but how it comes that your are silent when something like this is still relevant:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Probably you seen these guys as democrats distributing peace flower around.

[PointOfViewGun]

Turkey has made claims not only on the island of Kastelorizo, but also on more (some 150) islands of Hellenic sovereignty. From the turkish newspapers (which are controlled by Erdogan, and run the risk of having their journalists arrested if they publish things that Erdo doesn't like) trying to create a warlike environment, to members of the Government such as Vice President of the Turkish Republic Fuat Oktai, the sovereignty of islands (Kastelorizo included) is very much questioned.
As for Kammenos, yes, he threatened to send the jihadists that Turkey is sending Greece to the EU, and the Government rightly received flak for that, both from the EU and the Greek opposition. In Turkey, of course, the opposition will merely ask why it is that the government demands X number of islands and not more. It's quite ridiculous to see Turkey whining for the militarisation of islands she plans so overtly to conquer and eradicate the Greek populations, just like they did with all areas under turkish control.

Was Kammenos fired from his position? Not that I know of. I haven't seen a public condemnation of his comments by the Greek government either. These were your criteria. Meanwhile, you're still unable to show us any official Turkish statement where its expressed that Turkey claims Kastellorizo for itself.

Only the Greek government explicitly stated that Kammenos did not represent their position, unless you have proof the Turkish government has done the same in Oktay's case, then both you and this weak whataboutism have no leg to stand on.
https://www.newsweek.com/greece-back...germany-313717

The substance your link provides is not of public condemnation but a Greek deputy in a EU meeting expressing that sentiment. Kammenos made his remarks at a public conference. The response should have been more direct. Meanwhile, the statements you two are banking on were made in a YouTube video by the SETA Foundation with 430 views. 10 of those viewers are from this thread... Turkey keeps on pointing out how the island of Kastellorizo, along with the Dodecanese, should be demilitarized. By saying that Turkey also claims the island for itself you two are basically saying that Turkey wants the islands it claims to be its own to be demilitarized... Again, there is a reason why you two can't produce a source with an official statement from Turkey.

And even more love from Turkey:
https://www.world-today-news.com/yil...zcu-newspaper/
A turkish journalist even says how "easy" it would be to put a Greek island (a large Greek island, Chios) into a coma. No, not warlike at all. Funny thing is, this journalist must be one of the Kemalists.

Nice distortion. He wasn't calling for a strike on the islands but pointing out how fragile their management were. I understand why you'd cling to such petty jabs though.

Regarding the Demilitarization status, this is not in the Lausanne Treaty, but in the Paris Treaty, of 1947 (if I recall correctly). In any case, Turkey was not part of THAT treaty, and therefore has no say in it. Simple as that.

Greece violating demilitarization status set forth in the Lausanne Treaty aside, Turkey not being a part of the 1947 agreement doesn't relieve Greece of its obligation to follow that treaty.

https://twitter.com/HalisTuncENG/sta...39778218577931
And I think that they are talking about Kastelorizo, because of the "Meis abluka" ie "Kastelorizo blockade" phrase.

Sigh... He didn't call for a blockade or closing of the straits. They were talking about what could happen if things escalated and what Turkey could do in such a case without a war. I understand why you'd rely on such weak sources though.

[Alastor]

The substance your link provides is not of public condemnation but a Greek deputy in a EU meeting expressing that sentiment. Kammenos made his remarks at a public conference. The response should have been more direct. Meanwhile, the statements you two are banking on were made in a YouTube video by the SETA Foundation with 430 views. 10 of those viewers are from this thread... Turkey keeps on pointing out how the island of Kastellorizo, along with the Dodecanese, should be demilitarized. By saying that Turkey also claims the island for itself you two are basically saying that Turkey wants the islands it claims to be its own to be demilitarized... Again, there is a reason why you two can't produce a source with an official statement from Turkey.

So no leg to stand on it is.

[Vanoi]

How did you came to that conclusion? by some twitter posts in Arabic which you even don´t understand?

Btw Greek Media be like:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Reflects really how some "Users" in this Thread are behave.

Well last time i checked Turkish forces are very close Sirte but aren't attacking it. Its been this way for how long now? Months? Whats stopping them? The only thing that has changed is that Egypt has declared Sirte a red line to not cross. And what do you know, Turkey ain't crossing it are they?

[Nebaki]

According to former Hellenic Navy Admiral Pericles Ebenikis Greece is alreadly behave illegaly since their claims on the Islands and territorial waters in the Aegean Sea.

Well last time i checked Turkish forces are very close Sirte but aren't attacking it. Its been this way for how long now? Months? Whats stopping them? The only thing that has changed is that Egypt has declared Sirte a red line to not cross. And what do you know, Turkey ain't crossing it are they?

Turkish Forces are:

- Turkish Land Forces
- Turkish Naval Forces
- Turkish Air Force


Who are not operating officially in Libya like Russian, French and Forces of United States of America, beside that Egypt changed at many times their "red lines" probably more an favour from Turkey to Egypt then really a red line determined from Egypt.

[Beorn]

According to former Hellenic Navy Admiral Pericles Ebenikis Greece is alreadly behave illegaly since their claims on the Islands and territorial waters in the Aegean Sea.

Source?

There's no admiral, rear admiral, member of the hellenic navy down to the rank of sailor -or even a reference to any person with that name both in greek or latin script anywhere on planet google.
I even searched for the surname alone, and there are no results either. I even typed it in the greek surname search website, including any possible misspellings or variations. No results, as expected. Maybe he comes from Gotham City instead?

[Tureuki]

That is a word play xd

Libyan issue might conclude soon, although Haftar seemingly objects, GNA and Tobruk based HoR have likely agreed on merging, Russia and Turkey will be acquiring a kind of a guarantor status, Sirta and Jufra will stay as a line between two side's military components for now, those two towns will have their own local police force. We will see, that is the rumour and the current events make it a strong possibility.

[dogukan]

@dogukan

Love how you everytime came when something is Turkey related which you use an excuse to blame any turkish nationalistic movement but how it comes that your are silent when something like this is still relevant:

Probably you seen these guys as democrats distributing peace flower around.

Greek nationalism is not my country's primary problem. The reason my country is becoming a corrupt dictatorship with no democracy, abuse of human rights, police brutality, oligarchic corporations taking over all the rent, my taxpayer money going to Islamist cults and paying for oligarch projects, my lack of representation in the parliament, my purchasing power dipping to the ground, me losing my social living spaces further and further, taking away of my right to promote my views ...etc are not faciliated by Greek nationalism.

I am sure democrat people in Greece have their own share of concerns for fascists in their own country.

The only immediate problem I have with Greek nationalists is that they are giving something to over for the nationalists over here.
And to be fair, our nationalism is feeding their nationalism. You see, it is a vicious cycle.

All we need is to somehow neutralize the political views of these toxic people on both sides.

[Nebaki]

Greek nationalism is not my country's primary problem.

This Thread is not about any kind of nationalism.

taking away of my right to promote my views ...

Your views are that Leftist-Exremist groups in Turkey are harmless, you even belittled those terrorists. These views are not even in Europe tolerated. Good luck with going further to spread your Ideology but don´t call that it´s linked to your country (Turkey) somehow when you even know that your useless Ideology always especially failed in that country from it´s start.

Greek nationalism is not my country's primary problem. The reason my country is becoming a corrupt dictatorship with no democracy, abuse of human rights, police brutality, oligarchic corporations taking over all the rent, my taxpayer money going to Islamist cults and paying for oligarch projects, my lack of representation in the parliament, my purchasing power dipping to the ground, me losing my social living spaces further and further, taking away of my right to promote my views ...etc are not faciliated by Greek nationalism.

Aren´t you supporting Greek nationalism with your posts in this Topic that have nothing to do with the Headline but just being bad publicity for Turkey? Don´t came please with the excuse of that this is the only way where you can express your opinion about your country.

All we need is to somehow neutralize the political views of these toxic people on both sides.

Well that´s a great idea - let´s start with your political views which maybe will get his full support in Pyongyang.

[dogukan]

I was referring to you showing me Golden Dawn members for claiming I support them.
Our foreign policy is not isolated from the internal dynamics in Turkey. The decision-makers are the same, the world-views that push the people to do what they do is the same.
The core of the problem is the same.

So I identify the problem not at the level of Golden Dawn larpers or frigate showcases on the seas. I identify the problem at the paradigmic level, the goal and vision of the policy-makers and the measures they take to consolidate their power. (Greece was not placed on our border yesterday, so why the sudden surge of hunger for conflict?)
Also, I do not have "radically" left views. I am in fact quite liberal. My "leftness" comes at the unsustainability of the capitalism issues which I believe should be solved with increaed local representation which goes through getting rid of centralized-power through religion-nationalism. (lets not personalize the matter or Adbdül will be on us)

[ioannis76]

Nice distortion. He wasn't calling for a strike on the islands but pointing out how fragile their management were. I understand why you'd cling to such petty jabs though.

He is literally stating that Turkey could post a few howitzers on the Minor Asian coast and take out the power station of the Greek island, and you are saying that "he's pointing out how fragile their management is"?

Was Kammenos fired from his position? Not that I know of. I haven't seen a public condemnation of his comments by the Greek government either. These were your criteria. Meanwhile, you're still unable to show us any official Turkish statement where its expressed that Turkey claims Kastellorizo for itself.

Like I said, the Hellenic government came under fire, and rightly so. Therefore, the Turkish government has to come under fire, as well. And if you continue to deny the fact that the statements made by the Vice President of Turkey are official statements, it's not my problem. Pretty sure you're the only one who is convinced by this specific statement

[PointOfViewGun]

He is literally stating that Turkey could post a few howitzers on the Minor Asian coast and take out the power station of the Greek island, and you are saying that "he's pointing out how fragile their management is"?
This very statement shows a complete inability to hold a reasonable discussion POVG. I am really sorry to read such stuff. At least other people's posts are honest about it, why do your posts show a tendency to hide behind your own finger?

He didn't say "let's take over these islands" or "lets bomb them". After talking about how good sea food is on the island of Chios, how interconnected the island's tourism and economy is with the Turkish coast, he highlights the fragility of the island's administration as the island is pretty far from mainland Greece. Only a warlike approach would read that as warlike. It shows how your approach lacks merit as you cling to such petty instruments.

Like I said, the Hellenic government came under fire, and rightly so. Therefore, the Turkish government has to come under fire, as well. And if you continue to deny the fact that the statements made by the Vice President of Turkey are official statements, it's not my problem. Pretty sure you're the only one who is convinced by this specific statement

Except Kamennos was not fired from his position and there wasn't much public denouncement from the Greek government. Those were your criteria. If Oktay made his statement in a public announcement or in an official statement, sure, you'd have a point, but he made them in a YouTube stream that have been seen less than 500 people. His statements further contradicted the official stance of the Turkish government for decades in regarding the issue as well. It's been a few days since you started clinging to his words and since then you have been unable to produce any official statement from Turkey that claims the sovereignty of Kastellorizo as Turkish meanwhile we have statements that imply Turkey recognizing Greek sovereignty over the island. You are merely digging a hole for yourself.

[Beorn]

That is a word play xd
Libyan issue might conclude soon, although Haftar seemingly objects, GNA and Tobruk based HoR have likely agreed on merging, Russia and Turkey will be acquiring a kind of a guarantor status, Sirta and Jufra will stay as a line between two side's military components for now, those two towns will have their own local police force. We will see, that is the rumour and the current events make it a strong possibility.

I totally missed the point here, lol

That's a positive development on Libya, let's hope that a democratic solution will emerge there.


@POVG
Dimitris Kammenos is a well known anti-semitic, homophobic and right-wing nazi sympathizing nut, his election in the parliament was a disgrace to any decent human living left in the country.

Cespian Report's latest take on the matter, although it touches mostly the 12nm territorial sea part of the argument: