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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #1

    Default The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    A conflict have been brewing in the eastern Mediterranean sea for a while now. Currently, we have Greek, Turkish and French warships in the region. First the timeline:

    Back in July Turkey started talks about sending Oruç Reis to eastern Mediterranean to conduct research for natural resources. The area in question is to the south of Turkish coast of Antalya:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    After what was speculated to be a phone conversation between Erdoğan and Merkel, Turkey opted from sending the ship to the location above.

    Then something strange happened and Greece signed an EEZ boundary agreement with Egypt. What especially made it strange was the fact that the agreement did not cover the entire line Greece normally claims. In the below map, while the bold green line marks the agreement between Greece and Egypt the bold white line is missing as Greece claims it as well. Did Greece seriously forfeited from its claim?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Anyhow, Turkey saw this as a provocation and opted to send Oruç Reis research ship to the previous area anyways. As Greece turned to EU for help, France ran to its aid and decided to send two fighter jets and a frigate to the area. At the time 5 Turkey ships were accompanying the research vessel:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    As the area gets crowded a Turkish and Greek warship suffered a mini-collision as a the Greek Limnos tried to cut off Turkish Kemal Reis from escorting the research vessel.

    The two countries, perhaps as well as the French, never came this close to having a major incident since 1996s of Kardak crisis. What Greece likely fails to grasp is that EU support is not because of EU brotherhood but mostly because EU sees the natural resources as its own, rather than sovereign property of Greece. Macron, on the other hand, seems to be making a bad situation worse due to his vendetta from his conflict with Turkey over Libya. There is real chance that this conflict can turn bad really quickly.

    There is a lot of sides to this conflict. First and foremost, there is the issue of legality between Greece and Turkey. Who owns which area? Who has the drilling rights? What's the right path to resolving the conflict? Then there is the issue of French involvement. Let's ignore the specifics of the Libyan conflict and who supports who and how with respect to Libya. Is Macron simply trying to create a presence for him? Does his position have merit? Discuss.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I don't know what France is even trying to do lately, meddling in Libya, the seas, sending military vessels to Lebanon. Someone should remind Macron that his state has stopped being a deterrent force for the most and this isn't the 18th century.

  3. #3
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Well look at the bright side maybe Putin can send some ships and make things even more fun. Although I forget are Russia and France on opposite sides in Libya?
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  4. #4
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I am not sure I can say my full opinion with what the Greek side should have done to the invading navy ships because it is probably promoting illegal activities.
    Let's just say that I think the Greek navy and armed forces should have tried to stop the Turkish ships by all means necessary. At some point we should stop running to Europe and defend what is ours.

    Some measures we could use would be to go up in TV and all media and proclaim to the world that "if the Turkish ship is still within Greek EEZ in X hours, our navy would move to arrest them and do what needs to be done to protect the interests of the Greek state."
    The Israelis have landed on a Turkish ships carrying civilians and aid for Palestine in international waters, did way worse than "Try to arrest" and nothing happened.

    Now, I don't expect that our leaders would have the @@ to do what needs to be done. And so far I have been proven correct.


    I apologize if I come of strongly, but this is an important issue for me. Whether you agree or disagree with me and consider me a blinded nationalist or not, I feel humiliated by the enemy NATO allied ships criss-crossing in what is our EEZ.

    I want to assure you all, I am not trying to provoke strong reactions here, nor start a shouting match or a pissing contest.
    I am just sad we don't have @@.
    Please, take that as me venting my concerns in an international audience and not screams for war.


    Ι also will take this rare opportunity to thank PoVG for the OP because even though I disagree with Turkish aggression and I think the OP leaves a few things out... it is a balanced, neutral post. Far more neutral than I would make it.
    Last edited by alhoon; August 15, 2020 at 03:17 PM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    The only true solution is reaching a middle ground, because Turkey will stand againts those immoderate claims and multinational encirclement attempts by all means, those ships wouldn't be there if every possible consequence wasn't taken into consideration. I can understand the way Greek side sees things, when someone takes a step forward, it is immensely hard to take a step back, it feels insulting, anyone would react the same way, if you grab something, you don't wanna drop it when someone tells you to do so, doesn't matter what the logic or empathy tells you, pride filled reactions are part of foreign relations.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I feel humiliated by the enemy NATO allied ships criss-crossing in what is our EEZ.
    An EEZ which is made and accepted by one-side while ignoring other Side totally and you feel humiliated? We are talking here about the Eastern Mediterranean and not Aegean and in my opinion we should even discuss the Situation in the Aegean. I love how the Greek Side is blaming Turkey about their proclaimed EEZ while not really showing to International Audience their vision of an EEZ, which is nothing else then a Big Borderline around Turkey and surrounding it fully on Sea.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well look at the bright side maybe Putin can send some ships and make things even more fun. Although I forget are Russia and France on opposite sides in Libya?
    Both Russia and France support Haftar in Libya.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I am not sure I can say my full opinion with what the Greek side should have done to the invading navy ships because it is probably promoting illegal activities.
    Let's just say that I think the Greek navy and armed forces should have tried to stop the Turkish ships by all means necessary. At some point we should stop running to Europe and defend what is ours.
    Some measures we could use would be to go up in TV and all media and proclaim to the world that "if the Turkish ship is still within Greek EEZ in X hours, our navy would move to arrest them and do what needs to be done to protect the interests of the Greek state."
    The Israelis have landed on a Turkish ships carrying civilians and aid for Palestine in international waters, did way worse than "Try to arrest" and nothing happened.
    Now, I don't expect that our leaders would have the @@ to do what needs to be done. And so far I have been proven correct.
    I apologize if I come of strongly, but this is an important issue for me. Whether you agree or disagree with me and consider me a blinded nationalist or not, I feel humiliated by the enemy NATO allied ships criss-crossing in what is our EEZ.
    I want to assure you all, I am not trying to provoke strong reactions here, nor start a shouting match or a pissing contest.
    I am just sad we don't have @@.
    Please, take that as me venting my concerns in an international audience and not screams for war.
    Ι also will take this rare opportunity to thank PoVG for the OP because even though I disagree with Turkish aggression and I think the OP leaves a few things out... it is a balanced, neutral post. Far more neutral than I would make it.
    What makes you say the area in question falls withing the Greek EEZ when Greece didn't even include it in its agreement with Egypt?
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  8. #8
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I don't know what France is even trying to do lately, meddling in Libya, the seas, sending military vessels to Lebanon. Someone should remind Macron that his state has stopped being a deterrent force for the most and this isn't the 18th century.
    Ever heard of Françafrique? Its a concept describing France's sphere of influence over its former colonies in Africa and the Sahel in general.

    You say they are meddling in Libya. From France's point of virw its protecting its oil interests there.

  9. #9
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I'm too much of a cynic for this circle of alphas parading their 'weapons' in each other's faces.

    Why doesn't someone just build an island, park some missiles on it, and be done with it...
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  10. #10
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    An EEZ which is made and accepted by one-side while ignoring other Side totally and you feel humiliated? W
    The same can be said of Turkey's EEZ claim.

  11. #11
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    An EEZ which is made and accepted by one-side while ignoring other Side totally and you feel humiliated? We are talking here about the Eastern Mediterranean and not Aegean and in my opinion we should even discuss the Situation in the Aegean. I love how the Greek Side is blaming Turkey about their proclaimed EEZ while not really showing to International Audience their vision of an EEZ, which is nothing else then a Big Borderline around Turkey and surrounding it fully on Sea.
    An EEZ which is recognized internationally by almost everyone
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  12. #12

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    An EEZ which is recognized internationally by almost everyone
    But not by Greece itself? The agreement between Egypt and Greece left out almost half of what Greece initially claimed. How do you explain that?

    International recognition, if we are to take that at face value, also shows us the countries in question are being hypocritical because elsewhere they're behaving differently. There are many international cases where island generate much less EEZ than Greece wants.
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  13. #13
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    France has been historically the protector of the christian minorities in the Levant, and they have maintained stellar relations with Lebanon through the years. If you think that their aid towards Beirut is an act of aggression towards Turkey, please take off the tinted glasses.

    Egypt didn't want to irreversibly sink its relations with Erdogan and Turkey, so they agreed only to determine the EEZ boundaries concerning Egypt and the greek islands of Rhodos, Karpathos, Kasos and Crete, postponing the agreement regarding the EEZ affected by the island of Kastellorizo indefinitely. Greece wanted to reach an agreement with Egypt regarding this area desperately, so they accepted the partial determination of the bi-national EEZ, and also conceded some small% of it in comparison to the median line between the islands and Egypt.

    Btw, the map with the EEZs shown in the OP is incorrect/unjust, as it totally ignores any EEZ the turkish islands of Imbros, Tenedos and some other places should have (I would like to see the source)

    Regarding the collision, according to greek media and Navy, it was a navigation mistake by the Turk navigator, as he didn't keep a straight course. (take it with a grain of salt, as with every info coming from both states)

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    France has been historically the protector of the christian minorities in the Levant, and they have maintained stellar relations with Lebanon through the years. If you think that their aid towards Beirut is an act of aggression towards Turkey, please take off the tinted glasses.

    Egypt didn't want to irreversibly sink its relations with Erdogan and Turkey, so they agreed only to determine the EEZ boundaries concerning Egypt and the greek islands of Rhodos, Karpathos, Kasos and Crete, postponing the agreement regarding the EEZ affected by the island of Kastellorizo indefinitely. Greece wanted to reach an agreement with Egypt regarding this area desperately, so they accepted the partial determination of the bi-national EEZ, and also conceded some small% of it in comparison to the median line between the islands and Egypt.

    Btw, the map with the EEZs shown in the OP is incorrect/unjust, as it totally ignores any EEZ the turkish islands of Imbros, Tenedos and some other places should have (I would like to see the source)

    Regarding the collision, according to greek media and Navy, it was a navigation mistake by the Turk navigator, as he didn't keep a straight course. (take it with a grain of salt, as with every info coming from both states)
    With respect to Turkey, the entire line drawn between Greece and Egypt is unacceptable. The idea that Egypt didn't want to piss off Turkey completely, the same Egypt that have been taunting of going to war in Libya against Turkey, by postponing agreeing on the line that would be generated if islands like Rhodes or Kastellorizo taken into account doesn't make any sense. As far as I've seen there is no comment on it from the Greek government. What you're saying looks like a baseless attempt to make sense of a senseless act by Greece. The line that Greece conceeded isn't some small percentage but makes up about 40-50% of the original claim of Greece.

    What actually makes sense is that Greece knows that it can not impose an EEZ based on the tiny island of Kastellorizo if the issue was taken to court. There are many examples of international arbitration that doesn't provide 100% of the EEZ an island would generate based on the maximalist approach of Greece. Hence, Greece most likely drew the line at taking into account very large islands like Rhodes and Crete.

    The map is taken from Greek City Times website for it shows the Greek-Egyptian agreement clearly with respect to what Greece wants. The situation in the Aegean sea is not specifically a concern to me at the moment. However, most maps showing Greek claims shows that particular region where Bozcaada and Gökçeada are located in in a similar fashion.

    Here is an other map showing Turkish-Libyan agreement in red, from point A to B, and Greek-Egyptian agreement, from point A to E:



    I wouldn't take the Greek account at face value since at first they denied the incident ever existed. In fact, people in Greece took to Twitter to mock the news. It was later confirmed that a collision did indeed took place when the Greek ship wanted to cut off the escort and the Turkish ship didn't nudge off which forced the Greek ship to change course and lightly touch bodies. It's natural that they're blaming the Turkish side for it for an incident they denied ever happened. Its also rather funny that they would call it a navigation mistake in an area Turkey issued a NAVTEX over. It was a navigation mistake for Greek ships to be in that area in such a close proximity in the first place. Turkey, declaring a specific area officially for conducting operations in, without utilizing secrecy in navigation, somehow is the one with the navigation mistake...
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  15. #15
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Not my reports, mate. The collision incident was first mocked in greek twitter etc, as kontranews.gr which reported it originally is a yellow leaflet pandering to conspiracy theorists and ultra-nationalist misanthropists. I am not about to get into dick-measuring contests with anyone, but your news media that report the opposite are neither more independent or accurate (and our main media suck big time, trust me).

    Greekcitytimes's map is still very bad.

    Honest question: Does anyone with 2 brain cells in your side of the sea believes that the Turkish-Libyan line would stand to any international court or that it could be accepted in the UN?

    I have been talking explicitly about small percentages of the area that don't include Kastellorizo's EEZ claims, aka the area that takes into account the the rest of the greek islands.
    Last edited by Beorn; August 16, 2020 at 12:54 PM. Reason: grammar mistake

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Not my reports, mate. The collision incident was first mocked in greek twitter etc, as kontranews.gr which reported it originally is a yellow leaflet pandering to conspiracy theorists and ultra-nationalist misanthropists. I am not about to get into dick-measuring contests with anyone, but your news media that report the opposite are neither more independent or accurate (and our main media suck big time, trust me).

    Greekcitytimes's map is still very bad.

    Honest question: Does anyone with 2 brain cells in your side of the sea believes that the Turkish-Libyan line would stand to any international court or that it could be accepted in the UN?

    I have been talking explicitly about small percentages of the area that don't include Kastellorizo's EEZ claims, aka the area that takes into account the the rest of the greek islands.
    The collision was first mentioned by Erdoğan in Turkey. So, it wasn't some product of conspiracy website. I don't think dick-measuring has anything to do with it.

    The deal between Turkey and Libya is as valid as the one between Greece and Egypt, if not more. Keep in mind Greece wants to make a deal with Southern Cyprus as well. If Greece thinks that the tiny island of Kastellorizo can cut off the entire reach of the southern Turkey to Mediterranean than it shouldn't come across as too wild of an idea for Turkey to establish a continental shelf.

    The EEZ area that Katellorizo generates under the Greek maximalist approach is not small. That island alone is what makes half that line Greece formerly claimed.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The same can be said of Turkey's EEZ claim.
    Not when Greece itself always is referring to UNCLOS and if you just read the Definition of that UNCLOS and what it really means then it´s not possible to understand Greek stands in this Subjective - in way they are against their own contract which themselve agreed on it.

    For Turkey the Mediterranean Sea is an enclosed or semi-enclosed sea while Greece see this case very different. While we got from South-Cyprus this reply:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    "The Republic of Cyprus agrees with the following position by Turkey: “Furthermore, according to one of the general principles of international law of the sea, States bordering an enclosed or semi-enclosed sea, such as the Mediterranean Sea, are under an obligation to cooperate with each other in the execise of their rights and in the performance of their duties”."

    Source: https://www.un.org/Depts/los/doalos_...ulletin62e.pdf

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    https://www.un.org/depts/los/convent...s/unclos_e.pdf
    Last edited by Nebaki; August 16, 2020 at 04:36 PM.

  18. #18
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I am not sure I can say my full opinion with what the Greek side should have done to the invading navy ships because it is probably promoting illegal activities.
    Let's just say that I think the Greek navy and armed forces should have tried to stop the Turkish ships by all means necessary. At some point we should stop running to Europe and defend what is ours.

    Some measures we could use would be to go up in TV and all media and proclaim to the world that "if the Turkish ship is still within Greek EEZ in X hours, our navy would move to arrest them and do what needs to be done to protect the interests of the Greek state."
    The Israelis have landed on a Turkish ships carrying civilians and aid for Palestine in international waters, did way worse than "Try to arrest" and nothing happened.

    Now, I don't expect that our leaders would have the @@ to do what needs to be done. And so far I have been proven correct.


    I apologize if I come of strongly, but this is an important issue for me. Whether you agree or disagree with me and consider me a blinded nationalist or not, I feel humiliated by the enemy NATO allied ships criss-crossing in what is our EEZ.

    I want to assure you all, I am not trying to provoke strong reactions here, nor start a shouting match or a pissing contest.
    I am just sad we don't have @@.
    Please, take that as me venting my concerns in an international audience and not screams for war.

    It's an interesting perspective, but from a diplomatic perspective it is flawed. Because of the nature of how power functions for governments, making a deadline for another country under threat of war is effectively declaring war on the spot - and believe me, this would amount to a declaration of war. This isn't privately chartered ships running a known blockade. It removes all room for further diplomacy, and removes any chance of a mediate solution where both countries might benefit.

    How so?

    Once a country sets a deadline for another country to do something 'under threat of war', it means they have to be prepared to do the 'war' part. If they let the deadline pass without declaring war, they would look weak and lose all ability to play hardball over any international issue, as well as lose the support of their own hard line supporters.

    The flip side of this, the country being issued the deadline must not give in to the deadline. Otherwise they will appear weak both to their own hard line supporters and to the international community. In this case, If Greece were to give a deadline of say 48 hours, it would essentially be giving Turkey that time to prepare for inevitable conflict, a conflict that the Turkish government wouldn't be able to back down from - their own populace would be stirred up by "Greek" aggression and to cave in would be suicide to their leadership, and it would undermine any perception of strength they have in Syria, Kurdistan, or elsewhere. You see hopelessly over matched countries stand their ground time and time again - hello Iraq, Serbia, etc etc. Because if they don't, they are toppled. In this case, Turkey is not even over matched by Greece.

    Faced with a threat of war, Turkey could stand their ground, make Greece declare war and watch the political fallout ensue as the EU, United States, etc and all other vested interests put all manner of pressure on Greece to stand down.

    I understand that it's a big issue for you, and that you want Greece to be seen as strong. But your suggestion would only lead to either war (and not a war that your way of life would survive because Greece would be crippled financially and politically for making that kind of threat) or a backdown, once again which would leave Greece exposed. All parochial nationalism aside, it would be a national case of cutting off noses to spite faces.

    In this case, both Greece and Turkey could stand to benefit from taking "guns" off the table and talking. There is no wrong or right side here, there is two subjective national interests and a whole lot of political baggage continually working to undermine effective solutions. Win-win solutions are possible, but only when national egos are left at the door.
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  19. #19
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I disagree completely with the idea of war. Romania used to have similar issues with state owned turkish ships fishing and exploring for oil in the romanian eez of the black sea. Romania arrested the crews and confiscated the ships until Turkey payed reparations. It did not lead to war, it did not cause a diplomatic scandal beyond the very immediate short term. It's very rare that a country which is the wrong will force the issue if measures are taken against it.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I disagree completely with the idea of war. Romania used to have similar issues with state owned turkish ships fishing and exploring for oil in the romanian eez of the black sea. Romania arrested the crews and confiscated the ships until Turkey payed reparations. It did not lead to war, it did not cause a diplomatic scandal beyond the very immediate short term. It's very rare that a country which is the wrong will force the issue if measures are taken against it.
    State owned Turkish fishing ships? There is no such thing. It was a small private fishing boat belonging to a person from Ordu that carried the Turkish flag. There was no reparations to pay. It's not an example you can use within the context of this thread.
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