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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #481

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    None of the conditions that made tribunals to limit the EEZ effects of islands in past cases are present in the Greece-Turkey case.
    You still have not elaborate on what you think equity is and why the median line is not equitable in the Greece-Turkey delimitation.
    This has already been discussed and shown to be false and quite ridiculous.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    If you think that, then you're in for a surprise. PCA in India-Bangladesh case calculated the relevant coasts of India based on both the mainland and the Andaman islands, which are 500+ miles apart, because both coastlines generate projections that overlap with those of the coast of Bangladesh. The situation is pretty much the same with Spain-Morocco and Portugal-Morocco.
    For starters, PCA is an arbitration court. It's not ICJ. ICJ doesn't arbitrate. It passes judgment. More importantly, in the case of Andaman islands, both mainland India and the Andaman islands face the same Bangladeshi coastline. They were able to make projections between the respective bodies. Finally, Bangladesh did get more in that deal.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    Where do you base that false claim on?
    I base that "false" claim on the official website of ITCLOS:

    Greece

    “Pursuant to article 298, paragraph 1, of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, the Hellenic Republic declares that it does not accept any of the procedures provided for in Part XV, section 2, with respect to the following disputes:

    a) Disputes concerning the interpretation or application of articles 15, 74 and 83 relating to sea boundary delimitations, or those involving historic bays or titles;

    b) Disputes concerning military activities, including military activities by government vessels and aircraft engaged in non-commercial service, and disputes concerning law enforcement activities in regard to the exercise of sovereign rights or jurisdiction excluded from the jurisdiction of a court or tribunal under article 297, paragraph 2 or 3;

    c) Disputes in respect of which the Security Council of the United Nations is exercising the functions assigned to it by the Charter of the United Nations, unless the Security Council decides to remove the matter from its agenda or calls upon the parties to settle it by the means provided for in this Convention.”
    The articles 15, 74 and 83 are titled "Delimitation of the territorial sea between States with opposite or adjacent coasts," "Delimitation of the exclusive economic zone between States with opposite or adjacent coasts" and Delimitation of the continental shelf between States with opposite or adjacent coasts."
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  2. #482

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This has already been discussed and shown to be false and quite ridiculous.
    Yes it has been discussed and your claims were proven false when the actual court decisions were presented, after which point you kept repeating the same false claims, which is really ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    For starters, PCA is an arbitration court. It's not ICJ. ICJ doesn't arbitrate. It passes judgment. More importantly, in the case of Andaman islands, both mainland India and the Andaman islands face the same Bangladeshi coastline. They were able to make projections between the respective bodies. Finally, Bangladesh did get more in that deal.
    PCA court in this case is composed of two judges nominated by the case parties from a list drawn up and maintained by the Secretary-General of the United Nations, according to ANNEX VII of UNCLOS III, and three additional judges were appointed by the president of ITLOS. It's award is final and binding to the case parties just as ICJ awards are (Art 11 of the aforementioned ANNEX VII). So, I'm not sure what your point is about PCA.
    I've already mentioned in an earlier post that the definition the tribunals give to the relevant coasts is that they are "those coasts the projections of which overlap with projections from the coast of the other Party". Whether they face the same coastline of the other party is irrelevant. Actually in the India-Bangladesh case the Andaman islands relevant coast is almost parallel and facing towards the Indian mainland relevant coast so it is impossible to "face" the same coastline of Bangladesh.
    I'm not sure what you mean that Bangladesh got "more" when in the end the area ratio was 1:2.81 in favor of India. The median line was adjusted because of the concavity of Bangladesh coastline, it's true, and gave Bangladesh 19,467km2 more than the equidistance line, but Bangladesh didn't get what it was asking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I base that "false" claim on the official website of ITCLOS:
    The articles 15, 74 and 83 are titled "Delimitation of the territorial sea between States with opposite or adjacent coasts," "Delimitation of the exclusive economic zone between States with opposite or adjacent coasts" and Delimitation of the continental shelf between States with opposite or adjacent coasts."
    *double facepalm*
    Did you even read Article 298, paragraph 1 of UNCLOS III ? I guess not.
    UNCLOS III Article 298
    Article 298
    Optional exceptions to applicability of section 2
    1. When signing, ratifying or acceding to this Convention or at any
    time thereafter, a State may, without prejudice to the obligations arising under
    section 1, declare in writing that it does not accept any one or more of the
    procedures provided for in section 2 with respect to one or more of the
    following categories of disputes
    :
    (a) (i) disputes concerning the interpretation or application of
    articles 15, 74 and 83 relating to sea boundary
    delimitations, or those involving historic bays or titles,
    provided that a State having made such a declaration
    shall, when such a dispute arises subsequent to the entry
    into force of this Convention and where no agreement
    within a reasonable period of time is reached in
    negotiations between the parties, at the request of any
    party to the dispute, accept submission of the matter to
    conciliation under Annex V, section 2; and provided
    further that any dispute that necessarily involves the
    concurrent consideration of any unsettled dispute
    concerning sovereignty or other rights over continental or
    insular land territory shall be excluded from such
    submission;
    (ii) after the conciliation commission has presented its report,
    which shall state the reasons on which it is based, the
    parties shall negotiate an agreement on the basis of that
    report; if these negotiations do not result in an agreement,
    the parties shall, by mutual consent, submit the question
    to one of the procedures provided for in section 2, unless
    the parties otherwise agree;
    (iii) this subparagraph does not apply to any sea boundary
    dispute finally settled by an arrangement between the
    parties, or to any such dispute which is to be settled in
    accordance with a bilateral or multilateral agreement
    binding upon those parties;
    (b) disputes concerning military activities, including military
    activities by government vessels and aircraft engaged in
    non-commercial service, and disputes concerning law
    enforcement activities in regard to the exercise of sovereign
    rights or jurisdiction excluded from the jurisdiction of a court
    or tribunal under article 297, paragraph 2 or 3;
    (c) disputes in respect of which the Security Council of the United
    Nations is exercising the functions assigned to it by the Charter
    of the United Nations, unless the Security Council decides to
    remove the matter from its agenda or calls upon the parties to
    settle it by the means provided for in this Convention.
    2. A State Party which has made a declaration under paragraph 1 may
    at any time withdraw it, or agree to submit a dispute excluded by such
    declaration to any procedure specified in this Convention.
    3. A State Party which has made a declaration under paragraph 1 shall
    not be entitled to submit any dispute falling within the excepted category of
    disputes to any procedure in this Convention as against another State Party,
    without the consent of that party.
    4. If one of the States Parties has made a declaration under
    paragraph 1(a), any other State Party may submit any dispute falling within
    an excepted category against the declarant party to the procedure specified in
    such declaration.
    5. A new declaration, or the withdrawal of a declaration, does not in
    any way affect proceedings pending before a court or tribunal in accordance
    with this article, unless the parties otherwise agree.
    6. Declarations and notices of withdrawal of declarations under this
    article shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations,
    who shall transmit copies thereof to the States Parties.

    It allows the parties to the Convention to declare exceptions to COMPULSORY PROCEDURES (which is what Section 2 is about). Which means that the type of disputes listed in Greece's declaration can be submitted to the court ONLY with Greece's agreement, as Art 299 par 1 says
    Article 299
    Right of the parties to agree upon a procedure
    1. A dispute excluded under article 297 or excepted by a declaration
    made under article 298 from the dispute settlement procedures provided for
    in section 2 may be submitted to such procedures only by agreement of the
    parties to the dispute
    .
    As you can see it has nothing to do with what you said that
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Greece doesn't recognize UNCLOS procedures laid out in its article for territorial waters and exclusive economic zone delimitation.
    and is perfectly normal and according the UNCLOS III procedures on dispute settlement.

  3. #483

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    Yes it has been discussed and your claims were proven false when the actual court decisions were presented, after which point you kept repeating the same false claims, which is really ridiculous.
    PCA court in this case is composed of two judges nominated by the case parties from a list drawn up and maintained by the Secretary-General of the United Nations, according to ANNEX VII of UNCLOS III, and three additional judges were appointed by the president of ITLOS. It's award is final and binding to the case parties just as ICJ awards are (Art 11 of the aforementioned ANNEX VII). So, I'm not sure what your point is about PCA.
    I've already mentioned in an earlier post that the definition the tribunals give to the relevant coasts is that they are "those coasts the projections of which overlap with projections from the coast of the other Party". Whether they face the same coastline of the other party is irrelevant. Actually in the India-Bangladesh case the Andaman islands relevant coast is almost parallel and facing towards the Indian mainland relevant coast so it is impossible to "face" the same coastline of Bangladesh.
    I'm not sure what you mean that Bangladesh got "more" when in the end the area ratio was 1:2.81 in favor of India. The median line was adjusted because of the concavity of Bangladesh coastline, it's true, and gave Bangladesh 19,467km2 more than the equidistance line, but Bangladesh didn't get what it was asking for.
    This is pretty much the art of using a lot of words to say nothing. I'll pass on your attempt to dilute information at hand to create a defensible position for yourself as it lacks any merit. Good luck with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    *double facepalm*
    Did you even read Article 298, paragraph 1 of UNCLOS III ? I guess not.
    It allows the parties to the Convention to declare exceptions to COMPULSORY PROCEDURES (which is what Section 2 is about). Which means that the type of disputes listed in Greece's declaration can be submitted to the court ONLY with Greece's agreement, as Art 299 par 1 says
    As you can see it has nothing to do with what you said that
    and is perfectly normal and according the UNCLOS III procedures on dispute settlement.
    This last bit is quite similar to what I pointed above but it requires some highlighting. You're basically saying that Greece doesn't recognize UNCLOS's application in those disputes (which are exactly the kind of disputes it has with Turkey) till they do so in writing. UNCLOS being the convention Greece claims authority from when it comes to those disputes... I owe you money but I don't owe you money. I only owe you money when I tell you I owe you money...
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  4. #484

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You still have not elaborate on what you think equity is and why the median line is not equitable in the Greece-Turkey delimitation
    This has already been discussed and shown to be false and quite ridiculous.
    Has it? Could you link to where you elaborate on what you think equity is, and why median line is not equitable?
    Last edited by Infidel144; January 16, 2021 at 03:22 AM.

  5. #485
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Seriously now, where do you guys get all this arcane and obscure info about islands in India and articles buried in international regulations that virtually nobody reads as a pass-time?

    I cannot believe you found those by yourselves, or that you two read the whole UNCLOS and ITCLOS and WHATSTHATCLOS to find the relevant passages. So, please, may you tell me where you find that info?
    Not that I understand the legalese there but I would at least have a point of reference. And maybe somewhere in the places where you get your info, there are people that speak in plain English that a non-native English speaker without a degree and 5 years of experience in international law could understand.

    The discussion is way above my head. When I read things like "Hah! Article X, paragraph Y says ZZZZZZZ" and the reply is "WTF?! Have you read a different document, article A, paragraph Y that says some weird things that contradict your take of Article X, Paragraph Y!?!?!?" I can only blink with utter confusion.

    ______________________________________________________________________

    That said, could we take a step back from Article 298 and 299 of UNCLOS III and articles 15, 74 and 83 from ITCLOS (does it have a number?) and...
    return to discussing about the morality of the whole thing and who we think is right based on real-world arguments instead of who would be found right in the eyes of international courts based on laws?
    Last edited by alhoon; January 15, 2021 at 09:29 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    _______________________________________________________
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  6. #486

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This is pretty much the art of using a lot of words to say nothing. I'll pass on your attempt to dilute information at hand to create a defensible position for yourself as it lacks any merit. Good luck with that.
    This is pretty much a way for you to say that you have no argument.
    The "dilution", you speak about, is the backing of my arguments with actual facts that invalidate your attempt to discredit the court and it's decision, in contrast with you that all you do is make empty claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This last bit is quite similar to what I pointed above but it requires some highlighting. You're basically saying that Greece doesn't recognize UNCLOS's application in those disputes (which are exactly the kind of disputes it has with Turkey) till they do so in writing. UNCLOS being the convention Greece claims authority from when it comes to those disputes... I owe you money but I don't owe you money. I only owe you money when I tell you I owe you money...
    Nope, you still do not get it.
    UNCLOS application has nothing to do with allowing unilateral submission of cases to ITLOS. UNCLOS does not allow reservations to any part of it, unless expressly permitted, (Art 309) and saying that an allowed exception to ITLOS case submission equals to that, is nonsense. Also the (a) exception in Greece's declaration, which is our subject, has a "provided that" part, obligatory to the state making the declaration, which gives an alternate path of settling the dispute and does not allow the state to escape the dispute.
    But this is a moot point in the case of Turkey, because non state parties of the Convention (as Turkey is) can submit a case to ITLOS only with the agreement of the other party to the dispute (Art 20 par 2 of ITLOS statute), which defeats your argument that this exception by Greece is aimed at Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Seriously now, where do you guys get all this arcane and obscure info about islands in India and articles buried in international regulations that virtually nobody reads as a pass-time?

    I cannot believe you found those by yourselves, or that you two read the whole UNCLOS and ITCLOS and WHATSTHATCLOS to find the relevant passages. So, please, may you tell me where you find that info?
    Not that I understand the legalese there but I would at least have a point of reference. And maybe somewhere in the places where you get your info, there are people that speak in plain English that a non-native English speaker without a degree and 5 years of experience in international law could understand.
    I started reading delimitation cases to get a first hand information for what I saw circulating on the internet in the form of maps or quotes usually partial and out of context. The context and the "why" was what I was looking for. I started with google to locate articles about the cases, then I went to the judgments themselves, then to the referenced judgments in them and so on. On the way I read UNCLOS III convention, UNCLOS I texts, papers available online, watched videos etc. I have ~20 delimitation case judgments in my collection (the most often referenced) and I have read most of them back to back and excerpts from the rest. Of course I can't remember every detail, but I got the rationale behind them and I can always go back to find specifics. When I quote an excerpt or an article I don't do it by memory but I go back to the original text and locate it, if I even remember where it was. Before the judgments I read treaties, treaty minutes, diplomatic correspondence etc. I guess there is at least one that reads such things as a pass time :p
    As for the sources of the information, besides Google of course. This is where you can find the texts, but not people that will help you with them I'm afraid.
    International Court of Justice (ICJ) cases : https://www.icj-cij.org/en/list-of-all-cases
    Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA) cases : https://pca-cpa.org/en/cases/
    International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS) cases : https://www.itlos.org/en/cases/list-of-cases/
    UN Codification Division publications-Reports of International Arbitral Awards (RIAA) : https://legal.un.org/riaa/
    UNCLOS III : https://www.un.org/depts/los/convent...s/unclos_e.pdf
    UNCLOS I (obsolete) : https://legal.un.org/avl/ha/gclos/gclos.html
    Also there are online lectures in Youtube (Example of a lecture series on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkYR...O7WAx56-2HOxxL )

    BTW you do not need a degree and 5 years of experience in international law, although the legalese do need some getting used to.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    That said, could we take a step back from Article 298 and 299 of UNCLOS III and articles 15, 74 and 83 from ITCLOS (does it have a number?) and...
    return to discussing about the morality of the whole thing and who we think is right based on real-world arguments instead of who would be found right in the eyes of international courts based on laws?
    What is right and what is wrong? The law is a point of reference, justice has embedder in it the notion of fairness and is objective. Instead, depending on who you ask you will get a different answer on what is right and fair. Also, just by bringing up the "legitimate right" term you make a reference to the law from which such a right gets it's legitimacy from. Otherwise why is it legitimate? Why is it even a right, especially when it contradicts with rights actually given by laws?

  7. #487

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    In an unprecedented "diplomatic row" on camera, Nikos Dendias responds to Mevlut Tsavusoglu's preposterous claims:
    https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/24...h-counterpart/

    Dendias pointed out the numerous (400) violations of hellenic air space EVEN ABOVE GREEK LAND MASS to his Turkish counterpart.

    An interesting article, showing what the EU attitude has been, and what it should be, as demonstrated by Nikos Dendias:
    https://greekcitytimes.com/2021/04/1...ish-diplomacy/
    Last edited by ioannis76; April 18, 2021 at 07:28 AM.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  8. #488

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    In an unprecedented "diplomatic row" on camera, Nikos Dendias responds to Mevlut Tsavusoglu's preposterous claims:
    https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/24...h-counterpart/

    Dendias pointed out the numerous (400) violations of hellenic air space EVEN ABOVE GREEK LAND MASS to his Turkish counterpart.

    An interesting article, showing what the EU attitude has been, and what it should be, as demonstrated by Nikos Dendias:
    https://greekcitytimes.com/2021/04/1...ish-diplomacy/
    What was Çavuşoğlu's preposterous claims?
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  9. #489

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I love how these "so called hellenic air space" includes even the air space over Asia Minor, but we already especially had discussed this in this Thread. It seems that some User then disappeared and now skipped these quality Posts to express what exactly? Just want to mention that greece had made an one-sided claim that their air space includes 10 nautical miles but perhaps we have some People around here which are not skipped their geography lessons and will obviously see how ridiculous these claims are.

    Since when please Turkish Land Mass became greek one?

    Furthermore I want to mention that this Thread is about the Mediterranean (East) and not Aegean Sea.

  10. #490

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I love how these "so called hellenic air space" includes even the air space over Asia Minor, but we already especially had discussed this in this Thread. It seems that some User then disappeared and now skipped these quality Posts to express what exactly? Just want to mention that greece had made an one-sided claim that their air space includes 10 nautical miles but perhaps we have some People around here which are not skipped their geography lessons and will obviously see how ridiculous these claims are.

    Since when please Turkish Land Mass became greek one?

    Furthermore I want to mention that this Thread is about the Mediterranean (East) and not Aegean Sea.
    Who said that hellenic air space includes the air space over Asia Minor?

    Meanwhile, in actual news:
    https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/statu...75976276013060

    Advisor to Erdogan, Mr. Hakki Casin, said that the Greek city of Alexandroupolis actually belongs to Turkey, and that he vows to seize Hellenic weapons. This is how Turkey views "good neighboring relationships".
    What do you say to that?

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  11. #491

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    I see Abdullah Bozkurt is still taken seriously, no wonder why, his propaganda is just so convenient for the political agenda of everyone that has a beef with Turkey, right?. How many more times should we warn about his deliberate wrong translations and misdirections? The dude in the video is merely joking over the name.

  12. #492

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I see Abdullah Bozkurt is still taken seriously, no wonder why, his propaganda is just so convenient for the political agenda of everyone that has a beef with Turkey, right?. How many more times should we warn about his deliberate wrong translations and misdirections? The dude in the video is merely joking over the name.
    Just a joke huh?

    https://greekcitytimes.com/2021/01/2...exandroupolis/

    Is that why the theorist of the "Blue Homeland" (Mavi Vatan, is it?) asked for "demilitarization for Alexandroupolis" a few months back?

    The very map of that "Mavi Vatan" is ridiculous, practically ceding sovereignty of Greek islands to Turkey, just because Turkey arbitrarily removes EEZ and continental shelf from them.

    And btw doesn't Casim claim that the M1113 is "American junk" and that it will be a trophy in the hands of the Turkish army? It's so easy to be a tough guy in words.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  13. #493

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Not really surprising to see ioannis76 jump from point to point after trying to use an adviser saying that in "Dedeağaç" which means grandfather-tree in Turkish his ancestors were saying that it was their place to mean that Turkey, as a country, makes a claim on Thrace... Such weak partisanship actually hurts Greek positions.
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