Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; August 31, 2020 at 09:20 AM.
Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
The subject of the thread is the ongoing dispute about the maritime boundaries of the Eastern Mediterranean between Greece, Turkey, Egypt and Libya. Neither Lesbos nor Lausanne nor Cyprus nor any other quarrel Ankara and Athens might have had in the span of 100 years. Please stay on topic and remember to respect the rules.
If you're referring to the picture showing the ships voyage you can easily go to MarineTraffic website to track the ship yourself.
The response to Greek violation of international treaties shouldn't be to cite a pissing contest. We're not discussing who respects international rule less. We're discussing a specific situation involving Kastellorizo. Turkey doesn't need to occupy the island to press the issue. They've done that by conducting seismic survey in the intended region. The island has no real effect to that. Turkey didn't threaten or made any moves to occupy Kastellorizo. The island poses no military value to Turkey.
The Armenian Issuehttp://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930
GTA 6 Thread
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?819300-GTA-6-Reveal-Trailer
"We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."
Just because it happens near Turkey it doesn't mean Turkey gets a say. Turkey was not a party to that treaty (Paris 1947), so as far as that treaty is concerned Turkey is a third party and can't object if one party or other deviate from that treaty. It is as simple as that.
Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
I agree. But I am not sure everyone in Turkey agrees. Better safe than sorry.
Yes, it is a small chance that Kastellorizo will be attacked or threatened. A small but not negligible chance.
Or so we assume.
Better safe than sorry.
alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
"Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
_______________________________________________________
Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).
Between Turkey and Greece last time one of them invaded the other it was Greece invading Anatolia. Should Turkey preemptively occupy all of the Aegean islands just in case by the same line of thinking? You know you're in the wrong here. You know how wrong Greek claims in the area Oruç Reis conducts research in is. No need to use such excuses to defend Greece.
The Armenian Issuehttp://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930
GTA 6 Thread
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?819300-GTA-6-Reveal-Trailer
"We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."
Turkey does not need to part of Paris Peace Treaties since it was neutral during World War II and didn´t participated on it. This does not mean that such a small Island allows or even grants Greece an EEZ or even nautical miles of Sea territory/Airspace which closes Turkey access to the Sea or even considers an expanding of Airspace which is clearly over Turkish Mainland. I call this hypocrisy at its finest, your referring to an Treaty which is more related to World War II then even to this Topic even more.
Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
Because Greece is preemptively occupying Turkish territory? What kind of a ridiculous strawman is this? Last time? 100 years ago? How many countries has Greece invaded in the last 50 years let's say? How many has Turkey?
This is the treaty that informs the demilitarized status of Kastellorizo you yourself spoke about. So what treaty should I speak of when discussing exactly that matter then? Turkey not being a party to that treaty means it has no say over whether Greece can militarize that island or not. Do you accept that finally? Let's clear that up before shifting the discussion to whether the island should have an EEZ.
Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
This treaty was just between Italy and Greece which fought against each in other World War II which does not change the further before arrangements between Turkey and Greece nor Italy. Even Treaty of Lausanne for example is back to referring to other arrangements between those Nations. You can´t just skip that and start argumenting on a Treaty which starts on 1947 while it ignores another Party (Turkey) with the most noticeable coast in the Region. While when Turkey was not part of these Treaty of Paris in 1947 why it should then accept Greek sovereignty over these Islands? If we just follow your Argumentation in this case then Turkey or any other Nation who is not part of Treaty can contest these Islands which aren´t being part of these Treaties?
Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
If international treaties and laws are exempt from the most basic level of logic and rationalism, what's their worth? Logically speaking, why would Turkey not be able to refer to the treaty that indicates the demilitarization of the islands if the islands are few kms away from its mainland and are spesically militarized againts Turkey?
I thought the benefit of modern lawmaking was the flexibility and freedom of amendment in time of need. Instead, we act like there is a single unbendable true that we should all follow regardless of the differences of gazillions of different scenarios, we could as well live in a global theocracy, but oh sorry, it is only unbendable if the side that demands a change is the "enemy of the west."
Greece and Turkey need a new treaty regarding their sea borders, the so called international law is unfit in our case.
Honestly, I am not familiar with the technicalities of the maritime laws and the past treaties between related actors. So I prefer not to comment on it.
I simply look into 2 things:
Foremost, the political drivers and consequences of increased heat. (after all, we did not reach these borders with Greece yesterday, they've been there for a 100 years)
Secondly, the common sense position, which to me seems like over-reaching claims on both sides.
In my ideal world, Turkey would not be delving into an authoritarian, anti-democratic, warmongering, aggressive, militarized society ruled by an ideological oligarchy that is entrenching its position everyday through control of any information means possible while declaring alternative views of any opposition as an act of treason and terror.
I personally believe that had Turkey not delved into this new national Greater Turkey discourse where it distances itself from the West with a populist argument of "WE ARE FINALLY INDEPENDENT FROM THE GAVUR" we would have been gaining far more than what we expect to extract from the seas. And this has a lot to do with the ideological views of Eurasianists and pro-Muslim Brotherhood positions (where ultranationalists thrive by feeding of off each side's nationalist ideals) rather than a pragmatic approach to politics.
Had Turkey been a stable pro-western system that does not threaten the global system, the actors in the region and West would also not be backing Greece's claims to this extend.
The naval officers who are quite Eurasianist wouldn't be wielding this much power over politics to make themselves relevant "heroes" of the nation, and this issue would best be handled in international courts with both sides reaching a friendly compromise by doing gests to each other so that both sides enjoy their common sea culture rather than looking at billions of dollar costing warships.
I do appreciate the idea that Turkey should be able to act on its own, independently without getting "permissions" from the West, but Turkey uses this to serve an hostile ideological position rather than a friendly-globalist one.
Ali Babacan himself puts this really nice: A decade ago, all the actors would come to Turkey for us the solve the problems and intermediate the things. Today we are driven by ideological hostility. We are one of the sources of the problem.
Turkey could have gained a lot and could have given a lot to the world peace and humanity. Lets be honest, Turkey is a very capable country with its geography, its resources and demographics. For almost the past decade however, we are going for a terrible way to make use of the opportubities because of ideological passions and the desire of a certain group to cling to power to death.
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
It was not just between Italy and Greece. There were many other signatories to that treaty. You may refer to wikipedia for a list. Turkey was not one of them. I have no idea what Turkey having a "noticeable" coast has to do with discussing that treaty. So if Turkey has the prettiest of all coasts it gets to be a party to every bilateral agreement and international treaty it likes? No.
Ah why should Turkey accept Greek sovereignty over these islands. Here we go. How about because it is not a warmongering state that respects the territorial integrity of their neighbours? Pfft hahaha, I almost managed to say that with a straight face. Yeah, as if. Well Turkey is not obligated to respect those borders, indeed in some ways it doesn't really. International law can be broken if you are strong enough to deal with the consequences and there is a thing called war. But then don't wonder why Greece is militarizing their islands. It is precisely because of such threats.
Because Greece did not undertake such a responsibility towards Turkey. As far as Turkey goes, Greece is free of obligations to keep those islands demilitarized. Because Turkey was not a party to that treaty and therefore has no right to claim it was wronged. How far away from the Turkish mainland those islands are is completely irrelevant.
It's unfit to this case because it doesn't benefit Turkey. You would understand of course if Greece who is a beneficiary of the standard understanding of this law would hesitate to give away its claims to Turkey.
Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 01, 2020 at 06:36 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
They toy with the idea, but we stop them.
I sincerely and honestly disagree with the research in our EEZ. That Turkey didn't sign our EEZ doesn't mean it's not our EEZ. That there is an island of ours in an "inconvenient" place for Turkey is a problem for Turkey, not me and I don't think that Turkey is right.
What I think, and I actually consider it possible (if unlikely), is for Turkey to try to take that island from us to "solve" the issue once and for all. So, we defend it.
alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
"Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
_______________________________________________________
Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).
Last edited by PointOfViewGun; August 31, 2020 at 01:55 PM.
The Armenian Issuehttp://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930
GTA 6 Thread
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?819300-GTA-6-Reveal-Trailer
"We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."
http://famagusta-gazette.com/2020/08...mediterranean/
That's 30-40 Rafales. They can argue in favour of French positions regarding the EEZ of the area, quite eloquently, from what I hear...
Last edited by Aexodus; August 31, 2020 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Off topic
The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.
I do hope for the good of the world AND Turkey that EU steps up its game and puts Erdoğan and his spoiled-ultra nationalist masses to its place while rallying Europeans for a democratic, civilized world once again burying the rising nationalist sentiments over there.
I am all for Turkey defending its rights, but not with this spoiled aggressive tone, and not by using such issues as a way to keep power and oppress the opposition. That does more harm than good for the country.
It is natural for Greece to act overly-protective when we have a regime of this sort at the helm. It is an unpredictable regime that is steered by a variety of Islamist and nationalist faction with expansionist dreams.
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
I'm neither siding with Turkey nor like the theocratic nuttery of Erdogan, but this fanatically anti-nationalist line of thinking is the opposite of what creates civilizations. Let's not forget that in the West, ideas of egalitarianism and liberalism emerged when West already became a superior civilization due to... nationalism and hierarchical "reactionary" (as neomarxist cultists like to call it) ideas. So asking other nations to invade yours is rather questionable, especially given how "democratic civilized world" doesn't really care about democracy in its puppet states.
Last edited by Heathen Hammer; August 31, 2020 at 04:43 PM.
I do not ask for an invasion.
I am simply fed up with Erdoğan and the other nationalists saying things without any consequence to leverage it against the opposition within the country. The nationalist sentiments have reached crazy levels in Turkey. It is not possible to do any form of politics without considering the "national will" of our great nation and that we must all unite behind our great nation. Democracy, human rights etc are BS Soros lies that we do not need, what matters is our strong leader.
You might not realize the importance of living in a country with basic democracy and talk highly of nationalism when you live in Canada my friend. But when nationalism reaches a certain level, the main idea becomes that nothing else matters but the imaginary national causes. And whatever the leadership does around that idea is tolerable not matter how corrupt, undemocratic, inhumane it is.
When the police beats you, makes you dissaper, puts you in jail without proper legal process and media declares you a "potential suicide bomber" out of nowhere and lynch mobs threaten your life because you are a "traitor" ...you understand the value of basic democratic values. May your greatest problem be pink haired LGBT SJWs forever.
I am about to throw up from our great nation and our great army and our great leader discourse over here everywhere.
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge