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Thread: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

  1. #221

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN2640ZL

    Looks like the US is cozying up to Cyprus and ending the decades long arms embargo placed on them. Turkey has not reacted well to the news but thats expected.
    Read: We desperately need to sell weapons. France exploited the Greeks to sell some planes and frigates, now its USA's turn. I'm not surprised USA's help for a non-NATO country in its quest against a NATO country.
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  2. #222
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Read: We desperately need to sell weapons.
    Desperately? The US is the biggest weapon exporter in the world. It has no problems selling wrapons.

    France exploited the Greeks to sell some planes and frigates, now its USA's turn. I'm not surprised USA's help for a non-NATO country in its quest against a NATO country.
    More like exploited the poor state of relations Turkey has with most of its neighbors.

  3. #223

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Desperately? The US is the biggest weapon exporter in the world. It has no problems selling wrapons.
    More like exploited the poor state of relations Turkey has with most of its neighbors.
    I didn't say they have a problem in selling weapons. With a growing budget deficit they need every bit of money.
    It's Greek taxpayers and partially European taxpayers that pay for it. Can't remember who but a Greek minister once said how Greece was fooled with the image of Turkey as the enemy to pay for military equipment it did not need. Seems to be a short lived lesson...
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  4. #224
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I didn't say they have a problem in selling weapons. With a growing budget deficit they need every bit of money.
    Weapons sales wouldn't offset a growing deficit and besides Cyprus is a tiny island. A divided one at that. They don't have major weapon buying money.

    There are however major problems between Turkey and the US. You have the Kurdish issue, the S-400 issue, Turkey and its bad relations with various US allies and interests (Greece, UAE, Israel, Egypt, France), you have Turkey inviting a known terror group into the country (Hamas). All reasons indicate that Turkish and American interests are starting to oppose each other. Hence the support of Cyprus.

    There are far more things at play here than just a deficit.+


    It's Greek taxpayers and partially European taxpayers that pay for it. Can't remember who but a Greek minister once said how Greece was fooled with the image of Turkey as the enemy to pay for military equipment it did not need. Seems to be a short lived lesson...
    Considering Turkish actions in the last two years i'd say he spoke too soon.

  5. #225

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Weapons sales wouldn't offset a growing deficit and besides Cyprus is a tiny island. A divided one at that. They don't have major weapon buying money.
    There are however major problems between Turkey and the US. You have the Kurdish issue, the S-400 issue, Turkey and its bad relations with various US allies and interests (Greece, UAE, Israel, Egypt, France), you have Turkey inviting a known terror group into the country (Hamas). All reasons indicate that Turkish and American interests are starting to oppose each other. Hence the support of Cyprus.
    There are far more things at play here than just a deficit.+
    I didn't say the arms sales to Southern Cyprus would offset the entire USA budget deficit. It would be a contribution nonetheless. The kind of contribution that lacks the principle I expect Trump administration to lack.

    Yes, many major problems that you fail to mention USA providing safe haven to a man known to be in tape saying how his followers should take over the Turkish government through clandestine manners as well as being responsible for a number of illegal activities in Turkey. I think the label "Kurdish issue" is not sufficient to describe USA arming Syrian branch of an organization (per USA intelligence labeling) itself designates as a terrorist group either. One of those superseded anything we have mentioned as its roots are in 1990s. Many of these issues, however, have been present for a long time. There have been more in the past. Today, is not particularly the peak. Yet, we're seeing the move today. Go figure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Considering Turkish actions in the last two years i'd say he spoke too soon.
    That's merely a delusional sentiment.
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  6. #226
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I didn't say the arms sales to Southern Cyprus would offset the entire USA budget deficit. It would be a contribution nonetheless. The kind of contribution that lacks the principle I expect Trump administration to lack.
    A very meager contribution at best. Its still not the reason for the change.

    Yes, many major problems that you fail to mention USA providing safe haven to a man known to be in tape saying how his followers should take over the Turkish government through clandestine manners as well as being responsible for a number of illegal activities in Turkey.
    I didn't mention it because its utterly irrelevant and whataboutism. The US providing safe haven to this man has absolutely no bearing on why the US decided to change from its neutral stance on Cyprus.


    I think the label "Kurdish issue" is not sufficient to describe USA arming Syrian branch of an organization (per USA intelligence labeling) itself designates as a terrorist group either.
    You mean the YPG who aren't recognized by the US and much of the world as a terror organization?

    Turkey supports the known terror group Hamas and of course the large variety of Islamists and jihadists part of the so called "Syrian National Army."

    One of those superseded anything we have mentioned as its roots are in 1990s. Many of these issues, however, have been present for a long time. There have been more in the past. Today, is not particularly the peak. Yet, we're seeing the move today. Go figure.
    We have different definitions of what a long time is. S-400 started recently in the last few years along with the Kurdish issue, Turkish intervention in Libya that happened only very recently, and Turkey harassing its neighbors of resource rights.

    What we are seeing today is that Turkish and American interests no longer align. That and Turkish ambition against fellow US allies. Thus the US no longer cares about pissing off Turkey. I'm glad too as supporting Turkish ambitions is not worth the time or trouble its causing.



    That's merely a delusional sentiment.
    I don't think being concerned over Turkey's ambitions from Syria to Libya is delusional.
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Try to keep it impersonal

  7. #227

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    A very meager contribution at best. Its still not the reason for the change.
    I didn't mention it because its utterly irrelevant and whataboutism. The US providing safe haven to this man has absolutely no bearing on why the US decided to change from its neutral stance on Cyprus.
    You mean the YPG who aren't recognized by the US and much of the world as a terror organization?
    Turkey supports the known terror group Hamas and of course the large variety of Islamists and jihadists part of the so called "Syrian National Army."
    We have different definitions of what a long time is. S-400 started recently in the last few years along with the Kurdish issue, Turkish intervention in Libya that happened only very recently, and Turkey harassing its neighbors of resource rights.
    What we are seeing today is that Turkish and American interests no longer align. That and Turkish ambition against fellow US allies. Thus the US no longer cares about pissing off Turkey. I'm glad too as supporting Turkish ambitions is not worth the time or trouble its causing.
    I don't think being concerned over Turkey's ambitions from Syria to Libya is delusional.
    USA's interests have been damaging Turkish sovereignty since at least 1990s as I've indicated, whether through providing safe haven to Gülen or supporting Syrian branch of an organization USA itself labels as a terrorist group. What we're facing today is largely a result of that. Many of what you and I mention is tied to that simple fact.

    Let's get closer to the topic though. You imply that Turkey is harassing its neighbors resource rights. You're likely referring to the area Oruç Reis have been conducting research in. Does this mean you think Kastellorizo is entitled to 100% of the EEZ the Greeks claim it has?
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Continuity
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  8. #228

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN2640ZL

    Looks like the US is cozying up to Cyprus and ending the decades long arms embargo placed on them. Turkey has not reacted well to the news but thats expected.
    This nothing big and alreay been discussed here 2 Weeks ago. South-Cyprus which only controls as the name says the South of Cyprus is a tiny Island which is controlled by greek cypriots or greeks.

    They already are using other Weapons which are made by EU or NATO Countries.


    Btw South-Cyprus is a Heaven for money laundering especially for Russians which explains how even some russian arms found there way there.
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:48 PM. Reason: Try to keep it impersonal

  9. #229
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    USA's interests have been damaging Turkish sovereignty since at least 1990s as I've indicated, whether through providing safe haven to Gülen or supporting Syrian branch of an organization USA itself labels as a terrorist group.
    YPG still isn't a terror group and its still whataboutism.

    What we're facing today is largely a result of that. Many of what you and I mention is tied to that simple fact.
    We have discussed this at length before. Turkey isn't a victim and doesn't get to play victim. Turkey's own actions are causing this. No one forced Turkey to buy S-400s. No one forced Turkey to support Hamas.

    Let's get closer to the topic though. You imply that Turkey is harassing its neighbors resource rights. You're likely referring to the area Oruç Reis have been conducting research in. Does this mean you think Kastellorizo is entitled to 100% of the EEZ the Greeks claim it has?
    Oh go argue that EEZ with the Greeks. I'm not dumb enough to be dragged into a useless debate that has been going on for pages already.

    Turkish actions are causing its neighbors to hate them. Yes or no?
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Try to keep it impersonal

  10. #230

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I really am not. There is no official Turkish position that questions the ownership of Kastellorizo. Fuat Oktay's comments are his own opinion. His comments doesn't dictate official Turkish position. It's no different than Greek politicians lamenting about having a right to İzmir or İstanbul. So, no, again, Turkey doesn't question the sovereignty of Kastellorizo. Never did. You're merely grasping at straws.
    This must be the most ridiculous comment in the whole forum.
    Fuat Oktay's statement, as presented in his interview, is the official line of the Turkish state, because Fuat Oktay is the Vice President of the Turkish Republic. He is number 2 in the Turkish repiblic, second only to Erdogan himself. Your comment is like saying that Erdogan's statements are "his own opinion and are not related to the official position of the republic of Turkey".
    You could have said that you were unaware of the statement made by Oktai and left it at that. The fact that you attempt to abide by your previous statement goes a long way in demonstrating your idea of a discussion.

  11. #231

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    YPG still isn't a terror group and its still whataboutism.
    You mean like Antifa&Co.?
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Continuity / personal

  12. #232
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    You mean like Antifa&Co.?
    Who also aren't a terror group group in the US.
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Continuity

  13. #233

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    YPG still isn't a terror group and its still whataboutism.
    We have discussed this at length before. Turkey isn't a victim and doesn't get to play victim. Turkey's own actions are causing this. No one forced Turkey to buy S-400s. No one forced Turkey to support Hamas.
    Oh go argue that EEZ with the Greeks. I'm not dumb enough to be dragged into a useless debate that has been going on for pages already.
    Turkish actions are causing its neighbors to hate them. Yes or no?
    Why are you unable to discuss the very topic of this thread? Your approach there kinda explain your approach on your tangents.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    This must be the most ridiculous comment in the whole forum.
    Fuat Oktay's statement, as presented in his interview, is the official line of the Turkish state, because Fuat Oktay is the Vice President of the Turkish Republic. He is number 2 in the Turkish repiblic, second only to Erdogan himself. Your comment is like saying that Erdogan's statements are "his own opinion and are not related to the official position of the republic of Turkey".
    You could have said that you were unaware of the statement made by Oktai and left it at that. The fact that you attempt to abide by your previous statement goes a long way in demonstrating your idea of a discussion.
    Nope. His comments are not the official line of the Turkish state. You can not produce those comments elsewhere. He is not the number 2 in the Turkish republic either. That rank goes to the speaker of the assembly. Officials of a state, or even the heads of state often make off-handed remarks that do not follow the official state lines. You can try to grasp on it as much as you want. Turkey never made any claims on the sovereignty of Kastellorizo. You're simply confusing official stance of a state with personal opinion of a state official.

    How about you find an official statement from Turkey making a claim on Kastellorizo's sovereignty? Should be fairly easy given your tone about it.
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:54 PM. Reason: Continuity
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  14. #234
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why are you unable to discuss the very topic of this thread? Your approach there kinda explain your approach on your tangents.
    You actually brought up irrelevant topics like Gullenists and the 1990s first.

    Cyprus is part of the resource disputes in the Mediterranean along with Greece, Turkey, Egypt, and Libya. The US changing its stance on Cyprus and condemning Turkish actions in the Mediterranean are definitely on topic.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN2630ZN

  15. #235

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You actually brought up irrelevant topics like Gullenists and the 1990s first.
    Cyprus is part of the resource disputes in the Mediterranean along with Greece, Turkey, Egypt, and Libya. The US changing its stance on Cyprus and condemning Turkish actions in the Mediterranean are definitely on topic.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN2630ZN
    They weren't really irrelevant. You were merely ignoring them to create a one-sided representation of the circumstances. I didn't say it wasn't on topic either, but the very topic of this thread, the primary one, is the EEZ extent of the Kastellorizo island. I entertained your tangents enough and wanted to ground you on something more direct. Yet, you seem to be trying to avoid explaining your position on that.
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  16. #236
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    They weren't really irrelevant. You were merely ignoring them to create a one-sided representation of the circumstances. I didn't say it wasn't on topic either, but the very topic of this thread, the primary one, is the EEZ extent of the Kastellorizo island.
    Did you read your own OP? Last time i checked it touches on many topics besides the EEZs.

    I entertained your tangents enough and wanted to ground you on something more direct. Yet, you seem to be trying to avoid explaining your position on that.
    Now since the US is siding with Cyprus, will this affect current disputes Turkey has with other US allies in the aera.
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Please do not comment on moderation

  17. #237
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Please keep in mind that commentary on moderation activity is off topic in this thread. Also, as the Discussion and Debate rules state, your posts should advance the topic while remaining as impersonal as possible. Commentary that veers into personal disputes will be curtailed.
    Last edited by chriscase; September 16, 2020 at 02:08 PM. Reason: Reopening

  18. #238

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Apparently, an interesting voice came out of Greece today. Former minister and parliament member, Dimitris Kammenos, pointed out that they should be honest with the Greek public, that if Greece goes to the Hague they would lose the EEZ and continental shelf of Kastellorizo. I hope someone with Greek can confirm that is what he says from the link. Per past ICJ verdicts, that is the most likely outcome with Greece getting only a fraction of the EEZ the island would generate under the official Greek approach. Perhaps, that is also why Greece rejected ITLOS jurisdiction of a treaty its even a signatory of.
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  19. #239
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    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Apparently, an interesting voice came out of Greece today. Former minister and parliament member, Dimitris Kammenos, pointed out that they should be honest with the Greek public, that if Greece goes to the Hague they would lose the EEZ and continental shelf of Kastellorizo. I hope someone with Greek can confirm that is what he says from the link. Per past ICJ verdicts, that is the most likely outcome with Greece getting only a fraction of the EEZ the island would generate under the official Greek approach. Perhaps, that is also why Greece rejected ITLOS jurisdiction of a treaty its even a signatory of.
    Not perhaps. That's exactly why. They don't want to find themselves on the receiving end of an invitation to such a body, with their signature saying they consider their decisions binding. That's also exactly why Greece rejected the jurisdiction of the ICJ to try such matters. I don't understand what you think this link, if it says what you say it says, proves. I told you numerous times in this discussion that Greece will not get what it is legally entitled to if they go to international arbitration. Because those processes are about compromise. So yes, Greece will have to compromise and get less than it claims. Now, since what it claims is what the international standard affords them, Greece will end up with less than it is legally entitled to. That doesn't mean Greece is wrong to claim what it does. Greece has every right to. But international law is about what you can force as much as what you are entitled to and Turkey is going to steal a nice big chunk of what UNCLOS affords Greece, because they can. The only thing that could stop that is if Greece successfully wages a war against Turkey in the near future, or finds some other way to apply comparable pressure on Turkey. Both of which are rather unlikely.
    Last edited by Alastor; September 16, 2020 at 05:05 PM.

  20. #240

    Default Re: The Fight for Mediterranean: Turkey, Greece, France, Libya, Egypt ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Not perhaps. That's exactly why. They don't want to find themselves on the receiving end of an invitation to such a body, with their signature saying they consider their decisions binding. That's also exactly why Greece rejected the jurisdiction of the ICJ to try such matters. I don't understand what you think this link, if it says what you say it says, proves. I told you numerous times in this discussion that Greece will not get what it is legally entitled to if they go to international arbitration. Because those processes are about compromise. So yes, Greece will have to compromise and get less than it claims. Now, since what it claims is what the international standard affords them, Greece will end up with less than it is legally entitled to. That doesn't mean Greece is wrong to claim what it does. Greece has every right to. But international law is about what you can force as much as what you are entitled to and Turkey is going to steal a nice big chunk of what UNCLOS affords Greece, because they can. The only thing that could stop that is if Greece successfully wages a war against Turkey in the near future, or finds some other way to apply comparable pressure on Turkey. Both of which are rather unlikely.
    This is such a ridiculous claim in other words you agree on yourself that Greece is not in right, i thought you guys were for sure with your quotes from United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea and now you don´t like the Agreements which you went on your own and signed? blaming Turkey in the one hand to not respecting International Law and on the other hand not even loyal to treaties which you part of like ones which are not even Turkey is involved - now this is real hypocrisy.

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