Biblical Support Jesus is not Messiah

**~~wanderwegger~~** · August 14, 2020, 08:33 PM

Why do the majority of people on Earth fail to recognize Jesus as the Messiah (and I don't mean because religions are easily disprovable things)?

It has to do with him not fulfilling the criteria for Messiah in the Old Testament.

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Christians get out of jail free is a Second Coming will be when these criteria are fulfilled even though it is universally agreed the Messiah would fulfill these things in his lifetime from all the ancient Hebrew sources.

I assume I don't need to argue none of the above has been made so.

If you are wondering, is there more, there is.

Jesus Failed to Fulfill the Requirement of Messiah as prophet:

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2)
Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

Jesus did not Observe Torah:

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the Christian "New Testament," Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

Jesus was not a Descendent of King David on his fathers side:

Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (1)
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

And some mistranslation which aided in the confusion of Christians:

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text – which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.
When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).
Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

Jesus can not be the Messiah of the Old Testament for these reasons. I am always curious as to how these glaring discrepancies can be overlooked by Christians. Let us discuss the this information in a hope of understanding how Christians can find resolution between their own Holy Texts and those texts clearly stating Jesus does not fulfill the criteria for Messiah.

I think it would be wise to only make arguments with a Biblical Verse as the thrust. Otherwise this might devolve into people saying things unsupported by Abrahamic Scriptures.

**basics** · August 15, 2020, 03:36 AM

wanderwegger,

Why have the prophecies not been completed? Answer, because they have not yet all been fulfilled but when they do it will be when Jesus Christ the Messiah returns to judge all things and replace this creation with a new one. Of course it hasn't happened yet but it will. Your problem lies in believing that all the prophecies had to be in the lifetime of these men and no doubt some were but most weren't and won't be until the New Heaven and Earth become fact. What you are trying to establish is from the dead letter of Scripture, quite unable and unwilling to see the overall picture. Believing that Jesus Christ is the promised One does not require a sinner anything other than to believe that He died on a cross for their sin, that He rose again, was seen by many people and now only awaits to return to gather in His people to enjoy a heavenly life forevermore. In the process of being born again of the Spirit of God each one has the gift of that Spirit indwelt in them to begin to see from the Old Covenant what they couldn't before. You can't and don't want to because you are dead in your sin and dead men see nothing. So, will your effort chang anything? No, because God's people will remain God's people and those that are not no doubt will take great pleasure in what you assert.

**~~wanderwegger~~** · August 15, 2020, 09:35 AM

Ok. Let’s says I accept the prophecies will be fulfilled tba. Are you saying the Virgin birth isn’t true, since the messiah’s father comes from the house of David?

Are you saying the Bible is lying as Jesus observed Torah? If there is one lie there might be many.

The Messiah also doesn’t have supernatural powers, so all of Jesus’ miracles are lies or used sciences maybe?

please use scripture in your arguments like I did

**basics** · August 16, 2020, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by wanderwegger

Ok. Let’s says I accept the prophecies will be fulfilled tba. Are you saying the Virgin birth isn’t true, since the messiah’s father comes from the house of David?

Are you saying the Bible is lying as Jesus observed Torah? If there is one lie there might be many.

The Messiah also doesn’t have supernatural powers, so all of Jesus’ miracles are lies or used sciences maybe?

please use scripture in your arguments like I did

wanderwegger,

Jesus being God the Son from eternity to eternity took up union with an egg within Mary to become a man. Joseph became His step father and so it was accepted that Jesus' father on earth to His neighbours was Joseph the Carpenter. Both Joseph and Mary had a direct line to David, mary's claim being stronger as in joseph's side their was a curse on two of his ancestors. Therefore their is no dispute that Jesus was in the Davidic lineage.

For Jesus the Old Covenant was His Bible just as it is for us Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross and rose again the New Covenant came into being just as God had had prophesied centuries before. How so? By His death He fulfilled the requirements of the Law by being the substitute for certain sinners for whom He died. So our Bible consists of both Old and New Testaments the Old still carrying God's justice towards sinners.

Where does it say that Messias doesn't have Supernatural powers? Being God in the flesh He was still God and so to say that He somehow didn't have the Power of God is just stupid thinking. Look around you man and see the wonderful works of Jesus Christ even in a fallen creation. He made it all. What you have had to learn about science He created it by the Power of His words.

I am using Scripture yet if I quoted chapter and verse to you it wouldn't matter one bit because you can't accept what is written unless you can use it to defunct God's word.

**~~wanderwegger~~** · August 16, 2020, 04:01 PM

I assure you if you use chapter and verse I am eager to discuss. Without it for all, I know, the above is just made up.

**basics** · August 17, 2020, 03:33 AM

wanderwegger,

As one who has seminary expertise I would expect you to know immediately, even by Google, what is written without me having to help you out. The golden rule of interpretation of Scripture is context and flow but it is obvious you don't apply that or want to in your quest to try to prove that Jesus Christ is not God. I therefore am not going to help you.

**~~wanderwegger~~** · August 17, 2020, 03:41 AM

I tried google. No scripture exists for your arguments. Are you maybe thinking of the Quran not the Bible?

**Akar** · August 17, 2020, 11:31 PM

Basics will NEVER link you to any of his resources or bases for his arguments. I have been trying to get him to link me sources and bible verses for years and he has refused to do so. Even once going so far as to complain that he doesn't know how to make links. After I personally created him a guide (with screenshots) on how to provide links (with 3 different methods) he ignored it and has STILL refused to ever provide any evidence for his claims. You know, like when I kept asking him to provide me an actual source on the Hilprecht tablet and he just ignored me until it was revealed that his source for that claim was a literal fraud. If this is where he gets his information from, you need to take anything he claims without also providing the source with an entire ocean of salt.

This is his argument method and you will never see it change. He is reliant on his opponents never knowing what he is actually saying or arguing, that way he can never be wrong.

It's sad.

**~~wanderwegger~~** · August 18, 2020, 12:10 AM

He quotes the KJB on occasion. His method is brilliant to someone like me who admires a well done bit of trolling. And people keep engaging him. That is a form of respect.

Speaking of respect. basics, in response to post #6

Numbers 23:19 KJB

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good

The better translations say God is not human. Not mortal. So Jesus can't be God, if the Trinity idea is spot on, because God is never human or mortal.

**basics** · August 18, 2020, 03:48 AM

wanderwegger,

And Jesus having taken on human flesh was still God, why? Because He was God from eternity to eternity making Himself a little lower than the angels to be One with us. Jesus had nothing to repent of nor had He any need to lie thus making Numbers 23:19 quite true. The context is that God is not fragile or sinful like humans and why Jesus stood out from amongst men. That's the reason I don't quote chapter and verse because context and flow are the most important rules to follow and not little snippets taken out of context as you guys do all the time.

Akar,

Regarding the Hilprecht Tablets, are they fake? Was Hilprecht a fake? As for Bill Cooper I intend phoning CSM to find out whether he is a fake or not so on that I'll be in touch. Whenever I want a quick answer to something that evades me for the moment I Google it and surprisingly if it is to do with the bible it usually gives chapter and verse and you being so clever cannot do the same? Someone's telling porkies here.

**Common Soldier** · August 18, 2020, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Akar

Basics will NEVER link you to any of his resources or bases for his arguments. I have been trying to get him to link me sources and bible verses for years and he has refused to do so. Even once going so far as to complain that he doesn't know how to make links. After I personally created him a guide (with screenshots) on how to provide links (with 3 different methods) he ignored it and has STILL refused to ever provide any evidence for his claims. You know, like when I kept asking him to provide me an actual source on the Hilprecht tablet and he just ignored me until it was revealed that his source for that claim was a literal fraud. If this is where he gets his information from, you need to take anything he claims without also providing the source with an entire ocean of salt.

This is his argument method and you will never see it change. He is reliant on his opponents never knowing what he is actually saying or arguing, that way he can never be wrong.

It's sad.

What basic says is standard Christian 101 stuff compiling what was said many verses. Not sure why he did not provide the verses, they are easy to find on the internet just tedius to compile

OT prediction of a new covenant. Jerimiah 31:31. Jesus blood being the new convenant 1 Cor 11:24. his blood shed for forgiveness of sin Matt26:28

Here is an link where you can find verses about Jesus death being for our sins https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Substitution

Ask me about a point he made that you want a verse for.

**Common Soldier** · August 18, 2020, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by basics

wanderwegger,

And Jesus having taken on human flesh was still God, why? Because He was God from eternity to eternity making Himself a little lower than the angels to be One with us. Jesus had nothing to repent of nor had He any need to lie thus making Numbers 23:19 quite true. The context is that God is not fragile or sinful like humans and why Jesus stood out from amongst men. That's the reason I don't quote chapter and verse because context and flow are the most important rules to follow and not little snippets taken out of context as you guys do all the time.

Akar,

Regarding the Hilprecht Tablets, are they fake? Was Hilprecht a fake? As for Bill Cooper I intend phoning CSM to find out whether he is a fake or not so on that I'll be in touch. Whenever I want a quick answer to something that evades me for the moment I Google it and surprisingly if it is to do with the bible it usually gives chapter and verse and you being so clever cannot do the same? Someone's telling porkies here.

Tablets are real but most doubt his interpretation of them. Here is a transciption of the texr and the validity http://archive.org/stream/jstor-5278...827_djvu.txtes

**basics** · August 24, 2020, 03:44 AM

Common Soldier,

I used to put chapter and verse but quickly found that the context and flow if missed can be a rod for your back when discussing Scripture, so I started to use the phrase that Jesus used, " It is written." to get my opponent to pick up a Bible and read it properly.

Regarding Hilprecht's translation of the tablets of course was going to attract every opposition because of the importance it brought to Biblical authenticity. Creation Ministries' paper by Bill Cooper gives a pretty convincing argument that the tablets are older than the Gilgamesh version of events using Usher's timeline for the period.

It is wonderful to see that guys like you are coming forward as for a long time it appeared I was on my own so thank you.

**Akar** · August 26, 2020, 06:43 AM

Are you seriously going to continue citing Bill Cooper after he was shown to be a fraud?

**basics** · August 27, 2020, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Akar

Are you seriously going to continue citing Bill Cooper after he was shown to be a fraud?

Akar,

Even if Bill Cooper was a fraud, which he is not, what has that got to do with the Hilprecht Tablets that are not fraudulent. He wrote a paper about them showing Hilprecht's interpretation of them which you have not read thus making a giant leap from nowhere to assumption on your part. Your assessment of anything on these threads is based on what someone else has said rather than any knowledge you personally have. You hide behind other people's words jumping on their bandwagon without a credential of your own.