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Thread: Islamophobia in the West

  1. #161

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    This is a lie... Sahih al-Bukhari 6922 states, and I quote ..."according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" As this is a part of the Islamic source material - its a part of Islam. For us dirty unbelievers that essentially translates into *Mohammed said - anyone who leaves Islam, kill them*. So that settles that, I think.
    Quran doesn't prescribe any worldly punishment for apostasy. Hadith, the human creation, that differs in use from region to region, can not dictate what Islam is.

    Female Circumcision (FGM/C) between the Incorrect Use of Science and the Misunderstood Doctrine
    n 1998, scholars from over 35 Islamic Countries came together at Al-Azhar University, Cairo to discuss FGM/C alongside other issues related to reproductive health. They came to the conclusion that FGM/C is a habit that is non-obligatory in Islam, given that it has never been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, and there are no citations in Prophet Muhammad's Hadith containing any evidence of authentic isnad (chain of narration) that could justify a Sharia provision on so important an issue for human life as FGM/C. Further, Muslim jurists have not reached unanimous consent on FGM/C.
    Egypt mufti says female circumcision forbidden
    CAIRO, June 24 (Reuters) - Egypt's state-appointed Grand Mufti said on Sunday that female genital cutting was forbidden by Islam after an 11-year-old girl died while undergoing the procedure at a private medical clinic in southern Egypt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    I am hardly an expert on FGM-matters but I am pretty sure that this "99%-claim" is a fabrication. I can not find anything that actually support or confirm that in the Prevalence of female genital mutilation wiki-page or in the Religious views on female genital mutilation wiki-page. Neither can confirm or provide basis for that impressive 99% claim. However, I certainly can find plenty that contradicts it and suggest otherwise. UNICEF lists the top 5 countries with the highest levels of support for FGM - Mali, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Somalia and Egypt - and all 5 just happens to be Islam-majority countries. ...What a coincidence... And yet, supposedly 99% of all FGM is still somehow magically committed by non-Muslims almost exclusively - according to the claim. It does not add up very well, now does it? The "99%-claim" also provides us with a bunch of other unexplained paradoxes for us to consider as well. I will just forward a few here...
    That's not what I was claiming. I was pointing out that Mithradates' claim "99% of FGM committed by Muslims" was false.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    ..."It's a region specific practice, not religion specific."

    Folks, I'm pretty sure this claim is a fabrication as well... After all, that quite some "region" we are talking about there - it is spanning from the coast of west Africa all the way to Egypt and horn of Africa, and then it continues from the Arabic peninsula to parts of the middle east then parts of Iran and Pakistan - and then again in Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei. Curiously, it also happens to match up rather well with many (if not most) Islamic territories along the way somehow - what strange coincidence, isn't it? Furthermore, multiple Islamic councils all over the world have de facto offered their theological opinions and conclusions on FGM - that would be utterly redundant if FGM was not somehow relevant or important to Islam somehow - as is claimed. Obviously that is not true and thus we have yet another fabrication, on that note...
    FGM is mainly an African problem. It predates both Islam and Christianity where neither have any basis for doing it.

    Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting: A statistical overview and exploration of the dynamics of change
    NIGER55% of Christian girls and women have undergone FGM/C, compared to 2% of Muslim girls and women
    If its such a creation of Islam why do Christians practice it?

    Meanwhile:
    Study finds 'huge' fall in FGM rates among African girls
    Using data from 29 countries and going back to 1990, the report's authors found that the biggest fall in cutting was in East Africa.
    The prevalence rate there dropped from 71% of girls under 14 in 1995, to 8% in 2016, the study said.
    Some countries with lower rates - including Kenya and Tanzania, where 3-10% of girls endure FGM - helped drive down the overall figure.
    In North Africa, the rate fell from almost 60% in 1990 to 14% in 2015.
    West Africa also saw a significant drop, from 74% of girls in 1996, to 25% in 2017.




    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    ..."Vast majority of Muslims don't practice it."

    Its hard to tell for sure folks... It is clear is that at least half of all Islamic countries in the world do practice FGM to various extents - and that circumstance alone suggests that many, if not a majority of Muslims do practice it somehow. As many Muslims do live in such Islamic countries we can be rather certain that it is not a nominal minority we talking about here (Pakistan and Iran might be exceptions here). However without the hard data one can only speculate on this, but it is clear it is nowhere close to a small insignificant minority - as we are led to believe by the claim - and in that sense, the claim is obviously untrue and blatantly dishonest. As is so often the case with various pro-Islamic activism. If in doubt, Youtube have plenty of clips of such stuff...
    This is where bigotry kicks in hard. You base your claims on data that you now claim to be misleading just so that you can expand your viligication. Likely less than 20% of the Muslim world practices FGM and the numbers are falling. There are even Muslim majority countries where it virtually doesn't exist. The fact is only a fraction of Muslims practice FGM and these are concentrated in a number of states mainly in Africa. So, yes, vast majority of Muslims do not practice it.
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #162

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yup, this is certainly ignorance and bigotry. You're failing to address most of what I said while trying to shoot random negative points about Muslims. You're trying to muddy the waters to keep your vilification alive. You want people to be on the defensive for whatever bad did whatever Muslim does while doing your utmost to avoid applying the same standards elsewhere. That's what Islamophobia is. If you could acknowledge what I said and gave an honest attempt at addressing it I would take your words for criticism of the Muslim world. That's not really happening here. You make a claim. I correct it then you jump to something else without addressing it. There is a reason why you keep shooting new points with each posts while leaving others unresolved. We are, of course, trying to understand what pushes someone to distort reality like this to keep fueling one's own biases.
    Again, you.don't provide any facts, just make assertions and engage in name calling. It is you fail to address the facts I have raised, and you are the one randomly brings up negative points about others to distract about others. It is you who are muddying the waters, not me. When have you ever acknowledged the atrocities being committed by Muslims? You refuse ro acknowledge the Armenian Genocide or any other massacre by Muslims.

    We concentatw on Islam, because more atrocities are committed in its name than other religions. That is not bigotry, but fact.

    - Name an example of another religion where thousands of men from other countries, whose only thing in common is their religion, go to other countries to set a government in the name of their religion, raping and murdering in the process, as ISIS has done, in current times. If you can't provide the example, my pont is proven.

    - Give an example where orgsnized groups attacked other religions' places of worship as Muslims did on the Easter Sri Lanka church bommbings. If you can't the example, my point is proven.

    - Talking about Uganda which by your admission no longer has the death penalty, and was never a leading Christian country in any sense, and ignoring Muslim countries, some which are leading Muslim countries, is muddying the waters, and you are the one doing the muddying, not me. To assert Iran is not a leadig Muslim country would be a lie and you know it. To assert thd 2nd largest Muslim country is not in some sense a leading Muslim country, is another lie.

    - That an Islamic country, the land where Islam existed the longest, was the last country in the world to give women the basic the right to drive, is significant. That Muslims countries were the last to officially abolish slavery. That the Quran officially gives to rape slaves is significant. (Quran 4:24, 70:22-30, 23:5,6, 33:50 gives clear ok for men to have sex eith their slaves and since consent was not required, that this rape. Bukhari volume 9 #506 makes it clear rape is involved)

    - That a leading Islamic country like Iran tolerates child brides as young as 10 is significant. Iran has historically been a center of Islamic culture, and has been Muslim for a very long time. Moreover, the issue isn't just with the child brides, but that the grooms are so much older than their brides, sometimes 50. While Muslims like yourself nomdoubt will bring up some example of Christian African countries with young brides, the difference there is the groom is also very young, just a few years older thsn the bride, a totally different case. Iran with its child brides and much older grooms is merely following Muhammad being 50 when he had sex with 9 years old Aisha*.

    * Many Muslims flat out lie and deny Mhuhammad had sex with 9 years old, but here is a video where even a Muslim condemns those lies, and admits Aisha was only 9 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ywJIkXvrHpo)

    - It is your bringing the example of Pakistan having a woman prime minister that is an examplemof bringing up irrevelant points, not my example. The fact that Pakistan had a woman prime.minister once 30 years ago does not prove Muslim countries havd an enlightened attitude toward woman, any more than England having a woman leader 400 years ago proves the t was a hot bed of feminism back then. As a matter of fact, Pakistan had second highest gender disparity rating of 140 countries, only Yemen being worse (see my previous post for link). Woman as a rule are worse off in Islamic countries than other countries as the gender disparity ratings show. How will conditions for woman improve in Islamic countries if Muslims.like you refuse to admit the truth?

    - By refusing to acknowledge any problems with Islam that the rest of us who are not blinded by a partiality toward Islam can see, you are actually promoting what you call Islamophobia. I would not bring up these criticism of Islam if you woukd acknowledge the reality. Was Christianity just as bad at one time? Yes, but thatnwas in the past, and we are talking about the present. Has the West done some things just as bad as terrorist, not in the name of religion, but in the name of our secular "values". The US might not have intended it, but it created. mess in Iraq and led romas many deaths as Islamic terrorist, that I can admit.

    If you want defend Islam, you would be better off showing the double standards there. I can see Muslims being furious about innocent Muslims being killed in drone strikes, and the fact it was a mistake does fact poor sob is dead. Pretty arrogant for the US to conduct assassinations on foreign soil, and I can see the desire to strike back the only way they can. I wonder how.many terrorist were men went into Abu Graib prison as innocent and came out as terrorist due tomthe abuses there? It is rather double standard to criticize Islam but not the CIA.and the things it has done. Your arguments would have more force if instead of talking about ancient history such as the crusades, you stuck to more recent events as counter arguments.

  3. #163

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Quran doesn't prescribe any worldly punishment for apostasy. Hadith, the human creation, that differs in use from region to region, can not dictate what Islam is.
    Islam is more than just the Quran. The overwhelming majority of Muslim accept the hadith as authorative, and many of the principles are of Islam are not found in Quran. Nowhere in the Quran that Muslins are required romgo go a pilgrimage once in their life. Nowhere in the Quran does it demand circumcism of all male Muslim believers. Nowhere does the Quran demand all believers abstain from alcohol.

    And the Hadiths are not as random or local as you imply. Hadiths from Bukharia and Sahih Muslim are universally accepted by the vast majority of Muslims. Either you are ignorant or being less than homest.

    The majority of Muslims scholars accepted the death penalty for apostacy until the 19th crntury, where no doubt under western influence attitudes changed. But historically, death was the penalty for apostacy in.Islam.


    Even male circumcism is not commanded in the Quran, yet it is universal among Muslims. Historically, Muslims did not practice female circumcism, and unlike for male circumcism, no authentic hadiths support it.





    That's not what I was claiming. I was pointing out that Mithradates' claim "99% of FGM committed by Muslims" was false.

    99% figure is correct for people living in the West. Muslims are the only ones who practice FGM in develop countries, do you have an example of FGM being practiced by non Muslims in a western country? Please provide then.

    FGM is mainly an African problem. It predates both Islam and Christianity where neither have any basis for doing it.
    FGM originated in Afrca, but it continues to be practice by Muslims when they leave Africa and come to the West. And it is far more common among Muslims than others.


    Update: I have since found out that at least 2 of the 4 schools of Sunni sharia law either make female genital mutilation mandatory (Shafi'i) or recommended (Hanafi). This makes FGM a global Islamic religious issue, not just a local African issue.

    If its such a creation of Islam why do Christians practice it?
    Islam turned a region practice into global practice. Yes, it wasn't originally an Islamic practice, but is one now. It has become more intertwined with religion among Muslims than Christians. Many Muslims practice FGM as an Islamic religion principle, same as male circumcism, while Christian Afrcans practice.t as a cultural thing, not religious one. That is a difference.


    PS - stated at half the schools of Sunni sharia law either make FGM mandatory or recommended. There simply no major Christian work comparable to the sharia schools promoting FGM.




    This is where bigotry kicks in hard. You base your claims on data that you now claim to be misleading just so that you can expand your viligication. Likely less than 20% of the Muslim world practices FGM and the numbers are falling. There are even Muslim majority countries where it virtually doesn't exist. The fact is only a fraction of Muslims practice FGM and these are concentrated in a number of states mainly in Africa. So, yes, vast majority of Muslims do not practice it.
    True, but the percentage of Muslim practicing FGM is an order of magnitude higher than Christian ones. However, FGM is not an inherit Muslim practice, and as you say, it is not confined ro only Muslims and.the majority do not practice it. UPDATE: Since at leaat 2 out of the 4 schools of Sunni law promote FGM, and Sunnis make 80% of Muslims, it is fair to equate FGM with Islam, and it is dishonest to pass FGM as just a cultural.thing, the schools of sharia law have made it an Ialamic religious duty.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; October 02, 2020 at 03:28 PM. Reason: typo, new information

  4. #164
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Alright, some replies... Against my better judgement...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Quran doesn't prescribe any worldly punishment for apostasy. Hadith, the human creation, that differs in use from region to region, can not dictate what Islam is.
    What a ridiculous excuse... The Koran(s) does not solely define Islam, the hadiths does that too as both makes up the known Islamic source-material - which in turn defines and makes up Islam as a movement universally. And Sahih Bukari is the most important hadith there is in Islamic tradition so it is valid and representative for Islam alright. Either you just ignorant or you are extremely dishonest and hypocritical about Islam here - it makes little difference to me personally - but you, will have too decide what it is going to be as you cant have it both ways....

    The relevant hadith states that Mohammed - your prophet - said, kill those who leave or change their Islamic religion - that leaves zero doubts about what is prescribed in Islam in any such cases. Period. You may not like it, but that is the Islamic traditional doctrine regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    "n 1998, scholars from over 35 Islamic Countries came together at Al-Azhar University, Cairo to discuss FGM/C alongside other issues related to reproductive health. They came to the conclusion that FGM/C is a habit that is non-obligatory in Islam, given that it has never been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, and there are no citations in Prophet Muhammad's Hadith containing any evidence of authentic isnad (chain of narration) that could justify a Sharia provision on so important an issue for human life as FGM/C. Further, Muslim jurists have not reached unanimous consent on FGM/C."
    Oh please... Such hollow symbolic and ceremonious propaganda ploys matters little in reality - and I will not take seriously either. Its not even worth the paper it is written upon. The fact is that this "Cairo-accord of 1998" have been repeatedly ignored, disregarded and overruled ever since - all over in the Islamic world evidently. Making it all but empty phrases in order to present Islam a little less revolting to the ignorant and gullible masses of the west, whenever needed (or something along those lines, I imagine). It is a symbolic gesture, little else...

    The reality is that it means little to nothing due to the fact - and history shows us as much too. At the top of my head - the Malaysian Fatwa Committee National Council of Islamic Religious Affairs overruled it in 2009, and the Swiss Islamic Central Council did the same in 2018. And it is hardly limited to just those two instances either. FGM is simply too widespread in the Islamic world for that. Egypt alone has some freaking 27 million Muslim females mutilated, and that was in 2013 for crying out loud! This is 15 years AFTER your precious Al-Azhar University accord. Its embarrassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Egypt mufti says female circumcision forbidden
    The Egyptian mufti can declare whatever he wants - he could ceremoniously declare himself the grand-smurf for all I care - in reality it clearly means little anyways. As he too, is being repeatedly ignored, disregarded or overruled all over the Islamic world - just as that precious 1998 Cairo accord of yours. The reality is that FGM continues to be practiced in Islam to significant extents some 13 years after he said so...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That's not what I was claiming. I was pointing out that Mithradates' claim "99% of FGM committed by Muslims" was false.
    Alright, so be it.... In that case you are probably wrong yet again as Islam is the only known world-religion that to any significant extents practices FGM somehow - and that in the UK as well. FGM was never indigenous there so it has clearly been imported into existence via reckless mass-immigration. Neither traditional Christianity, Hinduism, Buddism, Sikhism or Judaism have any FGM-practices. So, it has too be Islam as that is the only rational explanation available left to us. That means Mithradates was probably right all along and you were wrong in that sense then. It looks like you have managed set yourself up to be wrong either way it seems... Imagine that...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If its such a creation of Islam why do Christians practice it?
    I have said no such thing, you did... So you answer that...

    Quote Originally Posted by UNICEF
    NIGER: 55% of Christian girls and women have undergone FGM/C, compared to 2% of Muslim girls and women
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    ... why do Christians practice it?
    The short answer is they don't... What you have in that Niger-example is what most of us usually refer to as an "exception". It is clearly in no way representative for Christianity as a movement in any reasonable sense. It is obviously too small and localized for that - and you probably know that already. Yet here you are presenting and parading it as if it had more significance then that - it don't, and we both know it. That said, I can't help but to notice a few details that both you and that UNICEF report fail to mention however. Niger is an Islamic country, with 99,3% Muslims, and the Christian minority is 0.3% in total (see Wiki). That means that there are still more mutilated Muslim girls/females in Niger then there are Christian mutilated girls/females there... Who would have thought?!? ...What a coincidence...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This is where bigotry kicks in hard. You base your claims on data that you now claim to be misleading just so that you can expand your viligication. Likely less than 20% of the Muslim world practices FGM and the numbers are falling. There are even Muslim majority countries where it virtually doesn't exist.
    Bah! That bigotry-card will not work with me and especially not while discussing Islam somehow. Islam is one of the most intolerant movements on the planet - that's a fact - and thus the likes of you don't get to whine about bigotry in its defense. I will not accept such glaring hypocrisy, nor should I have too...

    That said, even if we did believe (which I don't) in your unsubstantiated figure of less then 20% - it is still unacceptable and embarrassing in equal measure for any movement of that size. And, it is nowhere close to a "fraction" either. Nah, even that claimed figure makes up a significant minority and claiming anything else would be blatantly dishonest and misleading. Less then a 1%, now that's a fraction! Lastly, the possibility that there can be Islamic countries that do not practice FGM have never been contested here (thus far). Period...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The fact is only a fraction of Muslims practice FGM and these are concentrated in a number of states mainly in Africa. So, yes, vast majority of Muslims do not practice it.
    Again, I will believe that once you can actually prove it. Until then, feel free to explain away the reality of multiple Islamic countries evidently still practice FGM (and why it is even practiced somehow in places like the UK, France, Canada, India and Thailand by Muslim minorities). And why it is still practiced from west Africa all the way to India and beyond... The extent varies - totally granted - but it is present all the same - and almost all such areas are dominated by Islam. Who would have thought!? ...What a coincidence... Btw, the grey areas on the maps below means no data available, folks....







    It don't look like a fraction to me...

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; September 27, 2020 at 07:38 AM. Reason: Grammar...

  5. #165
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Previously, I have argued "anti-Islamic" as superior, more accurate and truthful then the concept and term "Islamophobia" ever was. I also argued that any casual use of "Islamophobia" makes people (unwittingly) play play the part of useful idiots for pro-Islamic propaganda and activism. I think that still stands. See post: 41 for the details...

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    I’m not terribly happy to see you use the Nazis as a go-to example when I disagreed with you, but whatever. They’ve obviously been recognized by internal opposition already – you just mentioned Schindler by name. ...
    I was using Nazism to illustrate the hypocrisy and absurdity of such (your) reasoning. Oscar Schindler is an exception, not a defining trait of Nazism. Arguing anything else is both ridiculous, untrue and dishonest - and that was my point there. Furthermore, there are no excuses good enough for Nazism - much in the same way there are none for Islam and communism. All three are utterly vile and revolting in their own right. And they all share traits of totalitarianism, collectivism and oppression (among other things). Anyone who joins such movements are obviously responsible for supporting, promoting and celebrating such ideas, ideals and doctrines by that act. Just as they are for rejecting the same.

    Let me also point out that I have continuously argued universal elements and traits of Islam - making all internal fractions and branches of Islam irrelevant as any of that does not matter in that context. I am discussing the core of Islam itself and its source materials not some damned sideshow version of Islam. Had you been somewhat less ignorant about Islam you probably would have realized that on your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    It's not a justification; it’s an explanation. You’re still missing the point. I’m telling you that the duration of the aggression doesn’t matter to anyone. ... ...
    You were trying to sell us a (leftist) narrative in which Europe is mostly to blame (again) while the Islamic world are mostly excused (again) for various things - and I just provided some historical context that killed that narrative in its tracks - and provided a more honest perspective on such matters. That's what happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    It’s not really tolerance if it’s easy, is it?
    Such extreme tolerance is both moronic and absurd - not to mention that it is also a silent/implicit approval of the intolerance in question (Islam). A proposition I find utterly unacceptable and irrational on sheer general principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    The same could be said about Christians, really. There are plenty who think that everyone should be Christian, ...
    Its hardly the same.... Christians usually do not try to oppress, enslave or kill unbelievers - not anymore they don't. These days most Christians seemingly try to tolerate them the best they can (with mixed results perhaps). All that soft "love thy enemy" and so on probably helps as well, I guess. Regardless, we are not discussing Christians here, we are discussing Islam and those who willingly follow and serve it - actual Muslims. And the problems - if any - related to them (or any people who somehow declare themselves a part of all that) specifically. And it that case it is a matter of extreme intolerance in regards to kafirs were oppression, discrimination, harassment, enslavement or possibly even execution are standard procedure as per Islamic doctrine. All it takes is undisputed Islamic supremacy - and such stuff will soon follow. So, its quite different alright...

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    I think this discussion is kind of driving back to the question of what Islam really teaches, but that I doubt that’s the actual motivation here. It's just too impersonal of an issue that we aren't terribly well-versed in. I think it's really about either terrorism or worry about changes to our society.
    Obviously it is about what Islam actually teaches - that is the very foundation of all sober and rational criticisms of Islam are based upon! I realize that this "unwanted" reality does not match them fashionable narratives insisted upon by PC-clowns, leftists and Muslim-activists in general - but it still is the reality here. Of course, everything would have been so much more satisfying for all such folk if all this was just a matter of plain discrimination and generic xenophobia - spiced up with moronic applications of racism and false phobia as they so eagerly wants it to be. But it is not, it is about Islam - its very nature and what that generates in the world. The Muslims themselves are secondary and only a problem because of Islam and their active support, promotion and celebration of the same.

    However, one most first know enough of Islam in order to recognize that in the first place. Once that level of understanding is reached (and its not that hard), one should also be able to see that Islam certainly can and probably will damage, scar and possibly even destroy western society and its freedoms - if given the chance - due to ignorant and misguided tolerance by the same. The two are simply not compatible - and any synthesis of the two are hardly possible or desirable. Of course you doubt all this, because it does not fit your preferred narrative on these things, or the desired conclusion you want here.

    I get that, but it won't make it any less true....

    - A

  6. #166

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    What a ridiculous excuse... The Koran(s) does not solely define Islam, the hadiths does that too as both makes up the known Islamic source-material - which in turn defines and makes up Islam as a movement universally. And Sahih Bukari is the most important hadith there is in Islamic tradition so it is valid and representative for Islam alright. Either you just ignorant or you are extremely dishonest and hypocritical about Islam here - it makes little difference to me personally - but you, will have too decide what it is going to be as you cant have it both ways....
    The relevant hadith states that Mohammed - your prophet - said, kill those who leave or change their Islamic religion - that leaves zero doubts about what is prescribed in Islam in any such cases. Period. You may not like it, but that is the Islamic traditional doctrine regardless.
    It kinda does. Clinging to the Hadith is a tool Muslim extremists and Islamophobia use to justify their abhorrent positions. Sahih Bukhari is not a Hadith. He was a Hadith compiler. He also had many Hadith stories where killing was not prescribed for those leaving Islam:

    Volume 9, Book 89, Number 316:Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

    A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam and the bedouin got a fever where upon he said to the Prophet "Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. He came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my Pledge.' But the Prophet refused. Then (the bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said: "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."
    The prophet said "whatever" the people that came after him centuries later wanted him to say. In fact, Quran clearly allows apostasy:

    18: 29 And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Oh please... Such hollow symbolic and ceremonious propaganda ploys matters little in reality - and I will not take seriously either. Its not even worth the paper it is written upon. The fact is that this "Cairo-accord of 1998" have been repeatedly ignored, disregarded and overruled ever since - all over in the Islamic world evidently. Making it all but empty phrases in order to present Islam a little less revolting to the ignorant and gullible masses of the west, whenever needed (or something along those lines, I imagine). It is a symbolic gesture, little else...
    The reality is that it means little to nothing due to the fact - and history shows us as much too. At the top of my head - the Malaysian Fatwa Committee National Council of Islamic Religious Affairs overruled it in 2009, and the Swiss Islamic Central Council did the same in 2018. And it is hardly limited to just those two instances either. FGM is simply too widespread in the Islamic world for that. Egypt alone has some freaking 27 million Muslim females mutilated, and that was in 2013 for crying out loud! This is 15 years AFTER your precious Al-Azhar University accord. Its embarrassing...
    The Egyptian mufti can declare whatever he wants - he could ceremoniously declare himself the grand-smurf for all I care - in reality it clearly means little anyways. As he too, is being repeatedly ignored, disregarded or overruled all over the Islamic world - just as that precious 1998 Cairo accord of yours. The reality is that FGM continues to be practiced in Islam to significant extents some 13 years after he said so...
    Sigh... If there was no such "symbolic" gesture, you'd likely argue that they are being silent on it. Your arguments are clearly dependent on the outcome you wanna reach, instead of being based on the information you have. Its interesting how you're trying to distort numbers to make them mean more vile then they are. 27 million women with FGM in Egypt wouldn't start dying after al-Azhar's statement's on FGM. Just because someone pointed out that FGM is not Islamic doesn't mean somehow women's body repair itself back to pre-FGM form. In your attempt to make it appear more vile you end up making a demagogic statement. By the way, since the prevalence of FGM in Christian and Muslim communities are quite similar, about 4 million of that 27 million number comes from Coptic Christians. It's certainly embarrassing for the communities in Egypt though. It's not embarassing for Islam, however.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Alright, so be it.... In that case you are probably wrong yet again as Islam is the only known world-religion that to any significant extents practices FGM somehow - and that in the UK as well. FGM was never indigenous there so it has clearly been imported into existence via reckless mass-immigration. Neither traditional Christianity, Hinduism, Buddism, Sikhism or Judaism have any FGM-practices. So, it has too be Islam as that is the only rational explanation available left to us. That means Mithradates was probably right all along and you were wrong in that sense then. It looks like you have managed set yourself up to be wrong either way it seems... Imagine that...
    Given that FGM is not practiced only by Muslims its pointless to claim that its practiced 99% by Muslims. Feel free to provide exhaustive numbers... Only immigrants from a number of African countries are responsible for women with FGM in UK. You don't know that all of them are Muslims. The divisions likely reflect the prevalence among their communities in their own country. Even so, with estimated 130 thousand cases in UK, meanwhile over 3 million Muslims exist in UK, it is illogical to argue that it's a Muslim thing. Otherwise you'd expect half the Muslim population in UK, aka the Muslim women, to have it. In reality, it's less than 10% of the Muslim women in UK.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    I have said no such thing, you did... So you answer that...
    The short answer is they don't... What you have in that Niger-example is what most of us usually refer to as an "exception". It is clearly in no way representative for Christianity as a movement in any reasonable sense. It is obviously too small and localized for that - and you probably know that already. Yet here you are presenting and parading it as if it had more significance then that - it don't, and we both know it. That said, I can't help but to notice a few details that both you and that UNICEF report fail to mention however. Niger is an Islamic country, with 99,3% Muslims, and the Christian minority is 0.3% in total (see Wiki). That means that there are still more mutilated Muslim girls/females in Niger then there are Christian mutilated girls/females there... Who would have thought?!? ...What a coincidence...
    You basically did say it. You imply that only Muslims practice it since you try to present it as something special to Islam. It's not. Niger is no exception. FGM is practiced with more prevalence in Christian communities of Tanzania and Nigeria. In Kenya, 21.5% of Roman Catholics practice it while 17.9% Protestants do. For Burkina Faso, this number is at 68%. For Guinea, Mali, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Central African Republic, Christian and Muslim communities have similar prevalence levels. So, yeah, its in no way a practice confined to Muslim circles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Bah! That bigotry-card will not work with me and especially not while discussing Islam somehow. Islam is one of the most intolerant movements on the planet - that's a fact - and thus the likes of you don't get to whine about bigotry in its defense. I will not accept such glaring hypocrisy, nor should I have too...
    That said, even if we did believe (which I don't) in your unsubstantiated figure of less then 20% - it is still unacceptable and embarrassing in equal measure for any movement of that size. And, it is nowhere close to a "fraction" either. Nah, even that claimed figure makes up a significant minority and claiming anything else would be blatantly dishonest and misleading. Less then a 1%, now that's a fraction! Lastly, the possibility that there can be Islamic countries that do not practice FGM have never been contested here (thus far). Period...

    Again, I will believe that once you can actually prove it. Until then, feel free to explain away the reality of multiple Islamic countries evidently still practice FGM (and why it is even practiced somehow in places like the UK, France, Canada, India and Thailand by Muslim minorities). And why it is still practiced from west Africa all the way to India and beyond... The extent varies - totally granted - but it is present all the same - and almost all such areas are dominated by Islam. Who would have thought!? ...What a coincidence... Btw, the grey areas on the maps below means no data available, folks....
    It don't look like a fraction to me...
    It works just fine since you're trying to bend data to cater to a pre-conceived vilification position. If you don't want accusations of bigotry and ignorance run rampant about your arguments then you need to keep your arguments consistent and logical. You're not. Take the case of India for example. FGM prevalence there is less than 1% per your own map. India has about 192 million Muslims living in it making up 14.2% of the general population. To be exact, FGM in India is mostly practiced by the Bohra Muslim community which numbers around 1 million in India. They represent that less than 1% mark on the map for India. Yet, you implied as if FGM was largely practiced by the 192 million Muslim community of India. Its not. You're trying to misrepresent data to keep your narrative alive. That's a bigoted and ignorant argument to use. The fact that out of a 192 million strong population only a group of 1 million practices FGM in India should tell you how it has little to do with religion.
    The Armenian Issue

  7. #167

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It kinda does. Clinging to the Hadith is a tool Muslim extremists and Islamophobia use to justify their abhorrent positions. Sahih Bukhari is not a Hadith. He was a Hadith compiler. He also had many Hadith stories where killing was not prescribed for those leaving Islam:.
    When we talk talk about hadiths of. Shahih Bukhari, eveyone understands we are talking about the collection of hadiths gathered and authenticated by Bukhari. The hadiths in Bukhari's collection that specify death for apostates are among those hadihs that Bukhari rated as genuine and true, Bukhari's collecion of hadiths, including the hadiths thst specificied death for apostates, are among the hadiths accepted true and genuine by the majority of Muslims, and to assert otherwise would be untrue.

    There are a small minority of Muslims who reject the authority of the hadiths, but they are a minoiry, and to claim only Islamic extremist use the hadiths s not true. Here are is an islamic site that equates apostacy with treason and acknowledges the sharia specificies death for apostates. https://www.al-islam.org/articles/ap...muhammad-rizvi. The reason used to justify the penalty for apostacy demomstrates the depth of bigoty and in the intolerance prevalent among Muslims.

    1. Here is another Islamic site that clearly says that Muslim apostates may be killed https://islamqa.info/en/answers/2032...cuted-in-islam

    2. 23 countries have penalties against apostacy and all are Muslim countries, and include the largest Muslim countries, Indonesia and Pakistan. Apostacy is often penalized under Blasphemy laws, apostacy being seen as a form blasphemy. Even where countries don't have any civil laws against apostacy, religious courts in Islamic countries can often enact penalties under sharia law. https://www.loc.gov/law/help/apostasy/ Note, that Sudan recently removed its death penalty for apostacy Since you said that there are 51 Muslims countries, that means that a.large percentage 40%) of Muslim countries have penalties against apostacy, including 12 that have up to penalty.

    3. The hadiths are a main source for Islam, second only to the Quran, as this Islamic site says https://www.whyislam.org/prophet-muhammad/hadith/ And Bukhari's collection is considered one of the best https://theislamicinformation.com/im...khari-history/ If any of the hadiths in Bukhari's collection fail and are not valid, then the entire science of the hadiths is invalid and fails.

    4. The example given in volume 9 Book 89 Number 316 you gave does not specify any penalty, but only shows that Muhammad refused to.allow the bedouin to leave Islam. The hadith does not say one that Muhammad voluntarily allowed the bedouin to leave, for all we know is he bedouin could have snuck out of Medina, and once the bedouin left Medina, he would have been beyond Muhammad's power to kill. The Hadith does not say that death was not the penalty of apostacy, and does not support your claims.


    The prophet said "whatever" the people that came after him centuries later wanted him to say. In fact, Quran clearly allows apostasy:
    Again you are wrong. Surah 18:29 says nothing about being able to leave Islam. It only says you can't force Islam on a person, which is something different. Once a person accepts Islam, that verse in no way says a person can change their mind and leave it; the Quran's position could be similar to marriage, where one can freely choose tonmarry or not, but once married simply cannot not unilaterally walk out of the marriage.

    The Quran verse does not support what you say, it does not mention anything about leaving Islam, and we have clear hadiths, second only to the Quran itself, specifically specifying death for apostacy and death is the penalty Muslims have traditionally specified for apostacy and what a number of Muslims countries still do. What makes you, have repeatedly denonatrated your ignorance of what the Quran actually saya, right, and the learned Islamic scholars in Iran and other places wrong?


    Sigh... If there was no such "symbolic" gesture, you'd likely argue that they are being silent on it. Your arguments are clearly dependent on the outcome you wanna reach, instead of being based on the information you have. Its interesting how you're trying to distort numbers to make them mean more vile then they are. 27 million women with FGM in Egypt wouldn't start dying after al-Azhar's statement's on FGM. Just because someone pointed out that FGM is not Islamic doesn't mean somehow women's body repair itself back to pre-FGM form. In your attempt to make it appear more vile you end up making a demagogic statement. By the way, since the prevalence of FGM in Christian and Muslim communities are quite similar, about 4 million of that 27 million number comes from Coptic Christians. It's certainly embarrassing for the communities in Egypt though. It's not embarassing for Islam, however.
    It is embarrassing for Islam that Muslim immigrants to western countries still try to practice FGM. The spread of FGM to Southeast Asia is the direct result of the Islamic religion: FGM is practiced only Muslim SE Asia countries https://borgenproject.org/female-gen...outheast-asia/, and the Shafi'i school of Sunni islamic law considers FGM mandatory.



    Given that FGM is not practiced only by Muslims its pointless to claim that its practiced 99% by Muslims.
    FGM in the west is 99% practice by Muslims. Also, while FGM in Africa was a cultural practice, rather than a religious one. Islam has made FGM a religious practice and has spread FGM to areas like SE Asia and Europe where the practice had not existed before. It was the Islamic religion that spread FGM to those areas.

    Feel free to provide exhaustive numbers... Only immigrants from a number of African countries are responsible for women with FGM in UK. You don't know that all of them are Muslims.
    Do you have any example of FGM being practiced by non Muslims in England? All examples have seen have been Muslims. We know Muslims spread FGM to SE Asia and other areas. While FGM was originally cultural in Africa, it has acquired a religious connection among Muslims, which is why it spread ro.SE Asia with the spread of Islam. In Indonesia, the Islamic Ulema was pushing FGM in Indonesia https://web.archive.org/web/20130125...ise-girls.html

    We have influential Muslim religious leaders promoting FGM, such as the previously citedncase of Indonesia, whereas Christian religious leaders and missionaries have always opposed FGM. While some Muslim religious leaders have opposed FGM others, as in Indonesia, have supported it, and FGM is obligatory under the Shafi'i school of Islamic law https://www.islamicpluralism.org/186...tion-according


    The divisions likely reflect the prevalence among their communities in their own country. Even so, with estimated 130 thousand cases in UK, meanwhile over 3 million Muslims exist in UK, it is illogical to argue that it's a Muslim thing. Otherwise you'd expect half the Muslim population in UK, aka the Muslim women, to have it. In reality, it's less than 10% of the Muslim women in UK.
    Even if not all Muslims practice it, the fact that one of the 4 schools os Sunni Islamic law, Shafi'i, makes FGM obligatory does make it a Muslim thing. There are a number of regions where the Shafi'i school is the predminate.school, and those areas are where FGM is common https://gellerreport.com/2016/01/glo...tilation.html/



    [quote]
    You basically did say it. You imply that only Muslims practice it since you try to present it as something special to Islam. [/uote]

    Axalon did not say it was only a religious practice, but he did imply that there was a Islamic religious.cnnection, which is true. While FGM is a regional cultural concern among others, Shafi'i.school making FGM oblgatory makes it a worldwide religious issue among Muslims.

    Shafi'i, while predomnate in only some regions, is still not restricted to only those regions, and Shafi'inwas the predominate Sunni school until the Ottomans promoted the Hanafi school.

    It's not. Niger is no exception. FGM is practiced with more prevalence in Christian communities of Tanzania and Nigeria. In Kenya, 21.5% of Roman Catholics practice it while 17.9% Protestants do. For Burkina Faso, this number is at 68%. For Guinea, Mali, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Central African Republic, Christian and Muslim communities have similar prevalence levels. So, yeah, its in no way a practice confined to Muslim circles.
    The African communities were only recently Christianized from native African communites, where the FGM was common. It can be hard to overcome local custom, even when miszionaries have tried, as in Kenya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp...colonial_Kenya. The percentages in Niger don't compare to Indonesia, where Muslim religious leaders actively promote it. https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...ing-level.html


    It works just fine since you're trying to bend data to cater to a pre-conceived vilification position. If you don't want accusations of bigotry and ignorance run rampant about your arguments then you need to keep your arguments consistent and logical. You're not. Take the case of India for example. FGM prevalence there is less than 1% per your own map. India has about 192 million Muslims living in it making up 14.2% of the general population. To be exact, FGM in India is mostly practiced by the Bohra Muslim community which numbers around 1 million in India. They represent that less than 1% mark on the map for India. Yet, you implied as if FGM was largely practiced by the 192 million Muslim community of India. Its not. You're trying to misrepresent data to keep your narrative alive. That's a bigoted and ignorant argument to use. The fact that out of a 192 million strong population only a group of 1 million practices FGM in India should tell you how it has little to do with religion.
    That FGM is common in Islam's most populous country and FGM is rgarded as obligatory by one of Sunni Muslims 4 schools of islamic law shows.Islam has a lot to do FGM being as common as it is worldwide. Indonesian Muslim religious leaders fought regulations against FGM. Outside of Islam, FGM is just a local cultural issue, but Islam has made FGM a global religious one actively promoted by a major elemsnt of Islam, the Shafi'i school of islamic law. FGM is widely practiced in Islam's most populous country, and there isnno evidence of FGM before the arrival of Islam in the country.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; September 28, 2020 at 01:33 PM. Reason: typos

  8. #168
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Regarding post:166... Folks, it is just too screwed up, inconsistent and dishonest for my tastes. And so, I will
    not bother with it or any further interactions with that poster - in this thread or elsewhere. Enough is enough...

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    When we talk talk about hadiths of. Shahih Bukhari, eveyone understands we are talking about the collection of hadiths gathered and authenticated by Bukhari. The hadiths in Bukhari's collection that specify death for apostates are among those hadihs that Bukhari rated as genuine and true, Bukhari's collecion of hadiths, including the hadiths thst specificied death for apostates, are among the hadiths accepted true and genuine by the majority of Muslims, and to assert otherwise would be untrue.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    3. The hadiths are a main source for Islam, second only to the Quran, as this Islamic site says https://www.whyislam.org/prophet-muhammad/hadith/ And Bukhari's collection is considered one of the best https://theislamicinformation.com/im...khari-history/ If any of the hadiths in Bukhari's collection fail and are not valid, then the entire science of the hadiths is invalid and fails.
    Agreed.

    - A

  9. #169
    pacifism's Avatar see the day
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Imagine this world:

    Globalizing Homophobia

    That was not that long ago and it actually covers the period you were pointing at European portrayal. At the time, I believe, Muslims were seen more as exotic. Perhaps because at this time there was no Muslim nation that was strong enough to challenge European powers? Ottoman Empire was the sick man at that time and any other Muslim-majority state was just very weak.
    That's interesting, I didn't know that. I was under the impression that a lot of the most conservative laws in place in the Middle East were something of a recent phenomenon, especially after the more secular and left-wing Pan-Arabic movement failed. There's a video of Nasser making a joke about the absurdity of a law proscribing hijabs ever coming into effect, which now feels very bizarre.

    I think you see a lot of that "exotic East" thing in stuff like the popular Western perception of harems, which was mostly developed by nineteenth-century European men who weren't even allowed to go tour inside in one. And yet, that belief is kind of a progenitor for a lot of contemporary stereotypes about Middle Easterners being polygamous or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The Rotherham child sex abuse scandal is the most infamous example of the organized exploitation of children in England. The abuse was excused, ignored and in some instances facilitated, by local authorities for decades. The overwhelming majority of the perpetrators were from South Asian backgrounds.
    I didn’t really look at the details about that case at the time, but wasn’t that also seen as a police misconduct scandal too? Not to take away from the gravity of what happened, but what the police did was not standard procedure. They’re not being told to accommodate and work around the existence of Muslim (immigrant?) gangs. These ones got in quite a bit of trouble for doing just that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    So.do you acknowledge the Qurwn preached violence, yes or no? Quran verses 9:5, 9:29 specifically tell Muslimz to fight non Muslims, and fighting is a form of violence. Quran 9:29. "Fight those who don't believe in Allah or the Last Day, nor forbid.that which Allah and his Messenger has forbidden, nor acknowledge.the religion of Truth, (even if they are) People of the Book, until they willingly pay the Jizya (tax), and acknoedge themselves subued". Surah 9:5 tells Muslims to "slay isolates", something Muslims have been doing since the beginning of Islam.

    For more Quran verses that expouse fighting and violence, see https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p.../violence.aspx

    Here is an Islamic site that specifically says that says apostates from Islam should be killed https://islamqa.info/en/answers/811/...t-for-apostasy . And here are a list of Muslim countries where apostacy from Islam is punisbable by death https://www.indy100.com/article/the-...th--Z110j2Uwxb. The assertion that these things are just made up by anti-Muslims is not true.
    religionofpeace again? At least you provided a link to it, unlike the last guy.

    It’s not entirely surprising to me that Qur’an allows for Muslims to defend their faith even in war. The life of Muhammad makes that pretty obvious to me. I am also not surprised that you found a couple of Muslims on the internet who proscribes the death penalty for apostasy. I do acknowledge that there are people out there who think that way. What I was saying was providing evidence for the claim that “the Qur’an justifies the use of violence”, when his previous statement was basically “I hate Muslims because they want to kill me”, is a backpedal.

    My criticism of your argument is that there is often a lack of consensus in the meaning of areas of the Qur’an. Your reading of the Qur’an completely ignores the concept of abrogation, or the poetic structure of the book itself. The Qur’an says stuff like this:

    “If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.” (8:61)

    And this:
    “If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them, until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.
    “Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
    “If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.” (9:4-6)

    Was this only an address to Muslims in so-called pagan Arabia in the 7th century? Does it only allow for formal war? Is it only prescribing strictly defensive or retaliatory action? Questions about the exact subject matter are important for any hermeneutic. Qur’anic theology doesn’t boil down to “Qur’an quote; I win” any more than biblical theology is “Bible quote; I win”. The simplest or most obvious reading isn’t always the most accurate or theologically consistent.

    Maybe your analysis is top-notch – I doubt it, but it’s possible – but there are still other ways to interpret it out there that Muslims hold to, and you haven’t shown how widespread your interpretation is or how religiously-rooted that acceptance is. It could be that people hold to a certain interpretation on cultural or political grounds instead of religious ones.

    How Muslims synthesize the Qur’an into a singular ideology is not as straightforward as you are making it out to be. People who know the Qur’an much better than you or I disagree quite a bit on what exactly the book means, that is why there are in fact different ideologies in the first place. That’s not even getting into disagreements on how to evaluate all those hadiths. How someone should read and interpret the Qur’an is a complex subject that touches on ethics, theology, government, and law. Over a thousand years of expert opinions and hadith compilations and evaluations make it even more intricate. If there is someone knowledgeable about the subject, preferably someone who is Muslim, that can tell me that I’m overstating the difficulty, I’d be happy to know that. In the meantime, I think you’re being too simplistic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    When entire countries support laws with death penalty for gays apostates, it shows the opinions supporting such views are not the result of a handful of Muslims as some try to imply. Your arguement has no merit, since by that logic, the US should be excused for.slavery. Countries don't impose death penalties for blasphemy and.homozexuality aggainst the will of the people, it is because the majority of Muslims.support the laws.is why they exist. The Muslims are not poor helpless people unable to prevent their rulers from imposing these bigoted laws - Pakistanis can elect prime ministers, they could remove death penaltied against blasphemy and homosexuality if they chose. But they don't because the manority of Muslims there support those laws.


    Those Islamic countries do.have elections, and the claim that Muslims have no say is not true. Iranian leaders are elected, for example. Iran's bigoted policies exist because the majority of Iranians support them, even if a minority don't. The intolerance that leads the executiom of 13 and 16 years old girls comes from the majority of Muslims in Iran itself, not from values imposed from above by a handful leader. The Iranian people overthrew the Shah, remember?

    If Islamic countries lack a free press, maybe religion, which has heavily shaped.the attitudes and values of ths people living in those countries, is the cause. Islamic religious opposition delayed the adoption of thr printing press in the Muslim world for 2 centuries or more.


    To argue as you do that religion has nothing to with the state those countries are in is navie and and just plain false. To continue to assert as you that religion, which plays such an instrumental role in shaping people's lives and thought in those countries plays no roles.in the state those countries are in is just nonsense. Religion is not the only factor of why those countries are in a mess, but it is a factor and a big one at that.
    I never said that religion has nothing to do with those countries. I’m arguing against the idea that religion has everything to do with it, which is what some people are implying. I think it’s basically a secondary factor.

    With your slightly simplistic histories of Iran and the Ottomans aside, I’m going to have to disagree with you about the level of democratic rule in the Middle East. The civilian control of the military does not exist in countries like Egypt or Pakistan, which is why most democracy indices rate almost every country in the Middle East as unfree. The fact that both countries have elections does not mean that they are free and fair elections. The military suspended the constitution in Pakistan as recently as 2007, and electoral reform and transparency were major goals in the Azadi marches. Regardless of how extreme Mohamed Morsi was willing to go as would-be dictator in Egypt, he was overthrown by his own military and replaced by the minister of defense el-Sisi to act as dictator ruling through emergency law instead of Morsi.

    The lack of power the people have in Iran is even more obvious. The last two elections put a moderate president in office, but that hardly matters when the Supreme Leader controls the committee that allows him to stay in office and he gets to appoint government ministers and make major policy decisions. The large scale and almost constant protests in Iran in the last decade have been attacking the current leadership for perpetuating undemocratic rule, human rights abuses, and poverty. Considering that the government response has been violent crackdowns, I don’t think Khamenei is very responsive to the wishes of the Iranian people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    And.how many terrorist attacks outside Mynamar have th Buddhist of Mynamar commited? If Muslims not commiting.attrocities all over the world, no one would.care. London subway, Paris attacks, Madrid attacks, 911 Twin Tower Attacks, New Dehli. 95% of all terrorist deaths in the US were caused by Muslims, who make.up only 2% the US population.

    Your argument that the Muslims are no worse than anybody else are flawed. Muslims are not the only ones to commit violence, that is true, but they do commit organized against others worldwide on a far greater scale than other groups. A lone gunman might attack a.couple.of mosques, bt that is nothing to compared to the organized Islamic Easter church bombings in Sri Lanka that killed far more.

    Yes, the majority of Muslims do not share the views of terrorist Muslims, but unfortunately, far too many Muslims are sympathetic Muslim terrorist. A quarter of British Muslims were sympathetic to the Charlie Hebo attackers https://www.dawn.com/news/1165850 The way to combat Islamophobia is to whitewash Islam and make.excuses, as you are doing, but acknowledge the problems and address them.

    The problems of Islam won't go away by pretending they don't exist. Bin Laden did not become a terrorist because of poverty or because he was deprived. Many of the ISIS members came.from European middle class backgrounds. Making excuses for them isn't solving the problem.
    “If Muslims were not committing atrocities all over the world, no one would care.” What you said is very true, in its own way. Probably not in the way that you meant.

    I’m not ignoring any problem. I’m saying that the problems are more nuanced and difficult to solve than what you’re implying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    You were trying to sell us a (leftist) narrative in which Europe is mostly to blame (again) while the Islamic world are mostly excused (again) for various things - and I just provided some historical context that killed that narrative in its tracks - and provided a more honest perspective on such matters. That's what happened...
    Again, it's not a justification; it’s an explanation. I was saying that European imperialism, colonization and decolonization, and regime change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries are important factors that brought Africa and the Middle East to where it is today. “But the Umayyads invaded Spain!” is not a really good comeback here. You’re acting like the number of years of conflict is more relevant than anything else: when it happened, the most recent developments, or any details about what was actually going on. There is an embarrassing lack of nuance in the historical narrative you’re subscribing to.

    Do you or anyone else here hate Islam because the Moors invaded Spain in 711 AD, or because of 9/11? I know that people love history here on TWC, but no one’s political opinions are driven by events 1300 years ago. Groups like Daesh didn’t just appear out of a void, there is a context and circumstances that drove its creation. If we want to stop future versions of it from existing, then we need to examine those causes so the ingredients that led to its existence can be removed. If your analysis for why a number of Muslims have become terrorists is just the word “Islam”, well, that not only ignores everything else that’s happening in these places, it also doesn’t accomplish anything because it doesn’t actually point us towards a solution to the problem. That’s my problem with your so-called anti-Islamic perspective: there is no solution offered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Such extreme tolerance is both moronic and absurd - not to mention that it is also a silent/implicit approval of the intolerance in question (Islam). A proposition I find utterly unacceptable and irrational on sheer general principle.
    Your principle is based on a view that Islam is some sort of a monolithic ideology instead of a conglomerate. It breaks down if Muslims do not agree on what you claim they are all united in. That's not even touching the bit where you said that Muslims are as bad as Nazis and Commies

    You have studiously ignored the branches and different schools of thought within Islam that I brought up by using ellipses and handwaving that they don’t matter for no reason. Your understanding of Islam seems to come from anti-Islam websites. If you don’t know enough about the Islam of Muslims themselves to distinguish between different schools of Islamic jurisprudence, then you probably aren’t knowledgeable enough about Islam to say what unites Muslim beliefs. If you are too committed to the idea that Islam is bad that you don’t recognize the existence of the modernist faction, then you are acting out of bias and your judgment is awry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Its hardly the same.... Christians usually do not try to oppress, enslave or kill unbelievers - not anymore they don't. These days most Christians seemingly try to tolerate them the best they can (with mixed results perhaps). All that soft "love thy enemy" and so on probably helps as well, I guess. Regardless, we are not discussing Christians here, we are discussing Islam and those who willingly follow and serve it - actual Muslims. And the problems - if any - related to them (or any people who somehow declare themselves a part of all that) specifically. And it that case it is a matter of extreme intolerance in regards to kafirs were oppression, discrimination, harassment, enslavement or possibly even execution are standard procedure as per Islamic doctrine. All it takes is undisputed Islamic supremacy - and such stuff will soon follow. So, its quite different alright...
    Well, it depends on what you mean by oppress.

    All I’m saying is that warning people that Muslims want to take over the world and make everybody become Muslim is a bit weird. Christians want everyone to be Christian too. Who wouldn’t want to save people’s souls?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Obviously it is about what Islam actually teaches - that is the very foundation of all sober and rational criticisms of Islam are based upon! I realize that this "unwanted" reality does not match them fashionable narratives insisted upon by PC-clowns, leftists and Muslim-activists in general - but it still is the reality here. Of course, everything would have been so much more satisfying for all such folk if all this was just a matter of plain discrimination and generic xenophobia - spiced up with moronic applications of racism and false phobia as they so eagerly wants it to be. But it is not, it is about Islam - its very nature and what that generates in the world. The Muslims themselves are secondary and only a problem because of Islam and their active support, promotion and celebration of the same.

    However, one most first know enough of Islam in order to recognize that in the first place. Once that level of understanding is reached (and its not that hard), one should also be able to see that Islam certainly can and probably will damage, scar and possibly even destroy western society and its freedoms - if given the chance - due to ignorant and misguided tolerance by the same. The two are simply not compatible - and any synthesis of the two are hardly possible or desirable. Of course you doubt all this, because it does not fit your preferred narrative on these things, or the desired conclusion you want here.

    I get that, but it won't make it any less true....
    You misunderstand. I am only doing this because I’m banking on the Muslims remembering my kindness after they take over and begin replacing all the white people.
    Last edited by pacifism; September 29, 2020 at 01:03 PM.
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  10. #170

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    It’s not entirely surprising to me that Qur’an allows for Muslims to defend their faith even in war. The life of Muhammad makes that pretty obvious to me. I am also not surprised that you found a couple of Muslims on the internet who proscribes the death penalty for apostasy. I do acknowledge that there are people out there who think that way. What I was saying was providing evidence for the claim that “the Qur’an justifies the use of violence”, when his previous statement was basically “I hate Muslims because they want to kill me”, is a backpedal.

    My criticism of your argument is that there is often a lack of consensus in the meaning of areas of the Qur’an. Your reading of the Qur’an completely ignores the concept of abrogation, or the poetic structure of the book itself.
    Tell me what you think the "concept of abrogation" is.


    The Qur’an says stuff like this:

    “If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.” (8:61)

    And this:
    “If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them, until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.
    “Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
    “If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.” (9:4-6)

    Was this only an address to Muslims in so-called pagan Arabia in the 7th century? Does it only allow for formal war? Is it only prescribing strictly defensive or retaliatory action? Questions about the exact subject matter are important for any hermeneutic.
    No. Unsure of what you mean by formal war. No.

  11. #171
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Wow. The level of detail in your analysis is absolutely melting my brain right now. Your supporting evidence is just ... unassailable. I know when I'm beat in a debate. You win. I concede.

    Abrogation is the idea of resolving conflicting passages of the Qur'an by saying that later revelation supersedes older revelation.

    A formal war is obviously a formal declaration of war between two governments.
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  12. #172

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    Wow. The level of detail in your analysis is absolutely melting my brain right now. Your supporting evidence is just ... unassailable.
    You asked three questions, I answered two, and asked for clarification on a third.
    Do you have any further questions?

    I know when I'm beat in a debate. You win. I concede.
    It is quicker that way.

    Abrogation is the idea of resolving conflicting passages of the Qur'an by saying that later revelation supersedes older revelation.
    Excellent.
    The surah you quoted this from:
    “If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them, until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.“Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
    “If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.” (9:4-6)"

    Is the last (or 2nd last revealed) and the first portion is the later revealed (post conquest of Mecca at about the time of Tabuk).

    Ayah 4 here:
    “If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them, until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous."
    It is not "If" they sign. This is referring to those idolaters with whom the muslims already had a treaty. Any who had a treaty that was indefinite in time or less than 4 months were given 4 months to accept Islam (or flee/find sanctuary). Those who had a treaty that was longer than 4 months (there were two or three tribes to whom this applied, as a I recall the longest was nine months), and those treaties were to be honored for their term.

    For ayah 5
    “Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful."
    The parentheticals are generally editorial insertions. In particular the "(and they refuse to make peace)" is not in the original (the other two are translations, nihil obstet).
    The Muslims are permitted to kill, capture and execute or make prisoners of the idolaters, they will have no choice but to die or accept Islam (signified by praying properly (salat) and paying the religious tax (zakat).

    Ayah 6 permits the idolaters to safely learn about Islam and be returned to their homes.


    A formal war is obviously a formal declaration of war between two governments.
    Well, the generally accepted manner is to inform the opposing side they can accept Islam, accept dhimmi status (for people of the Book, though this was sometimes extended to others), if neither then war.
    Last edited by Infidel144; September 29, 2020 at 07:57 PM.

  13. #173

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    That's interesting, I didn't know that. I was under the impression that a lot of the most conservative laws in place in the Middle East were something of a recent phenomenon, especially after the more secular and left-wing Pan-Arabic movement failed. There's a video of Nasser making a joke about the absurdity of a law proscribing hijabs ever coming into effect, which now feels very bizarre.

    I think you see a lot of that "exotic East" thing in stuff like the popular Western perception of harems, which was mostly developed by nineteenth-century European men who weren't even allowed to go tour inside in one. And yet, that belief is kind of a progenitor for a lot of contemporary stereotypes about Middle Easterners being polygamous or whatever.
    Polygamy was always officially recognized by Islam, and was practiced by Muslims, although you are correct, 19th century harem view Europeans had was not typical.of the vast majority of Muslims. Most Mulisms had only one wife, only a small number had more than one. While in the early 20th century many Muslim countries were not as religiously strict as they are now, a few Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia were alwaus pretty strict.

    But the conservative brand of Islam that comes up in most peoples.mind is due I think to thr influence of Saudi Arabia, who have been promoting their brand of conservative Islam with their petrol dollars



    I didn’t really look at the details about that case at the time, but wasn’t that also seen as a police misconduct scandal too? Not to take away from the gravity of what happened, but what the police did was not standard procedure. They’re not being told to accommodate and work around the existence of Muslim (immigrant?) gangs. These ones got in quite a bit of trouble for doing just that.
    Police tended to avoid thr Muslim gangs because thr liberals who always defend Islam would have criicized the police case if they had cracked down on Muslim. Police are criticized that they are picking on Muslims if.they do crack down on Muslikw, and if they don't, then they are blamed for not acting. The one group.I.see you.are not blaming are the Muslikms who actually committed the crime.

    religionofpeace again? At least you provided a link to it, unlike the last guy.
    I got Surah 9:29 and others all on my own. I only included the religionofleace link because it collected a lot more Quran verses that I did not fed like typing out. I have 2 copies of the Quran, exactly how many copies do you have?

    It’s not entirely surprising to me that Qur’an allows for Muslims to defend their faith even in war.
    Quran verses like 9:29 say absolutely nothing about self defense or even implied. Please point out where in thr verse it says self defense.

    And we can see historically, Muslims killing and raping was not done in self defense as you imply.

    1. When the Muslims conquered Mecca under Muhammad, they were not acting in self defense, since there is evdnce the people of Mecca every attacked he Muslims in Medina once the Muslims left Mecca.

    2. The frst blow snd killig done by Muslims was to rob a caravan during the sacred month when all Arabs agreed not to fight (but as usual, the rules of peace that apply to everyone else didn't apply to Muslims). Robbing a caravan is not an act of selfdefense.

    3. The Muslim invasiion, killing, rape and conquest of the Persian and Bzyantine empire was not an act of self defense.

    4. Muhammad conquest of the Jewish village of Banu Qurayza, killing all the men and enslaving all the women and children was not an act of self defense. Banu Qurayza had not attackd ths Muslims, and even if it had, that did not justify the enslaving of all the women and children

    5. It is not in self defense that the Quran sanctions the rape of captive women and slaves in Surah 4:24, Surah 23:5-6, Surah 33:50. Hadiths give examples of Muhammad giving specific approval for Muslims to rape their captives. That is not self defense either.


    The life of Muhammad makes that pretty obvious to me. I am also not surprised that you found a couple of Muslims on the internet who proscribes the death penalty for apostasy.
    There are more examples I could give, but how many would I need to provide, and why should I, since you have not provided any facts to support what you say?

    If entire Muslim nations have the death penalty for apostacy, we are not talking about just a few individual Muslims holding the view. The 'classical.14th century manual the Shafi'i school of sharia law, "The Reliance of the Traveler" specically calls out for death for apostates in Book O section o8.1

    I do acknowledge that there are people out there who think that way. What I was saying was providing evidence for the claim that “the Qur’an justifies the use of violence”, when his previous statement was basically “I hate Muslims because they want to kill me”, is a backpedal.
    Acknowledge what is impossble to deny, I am not impresses. I have provided the evidence you asked for. Surah 9:29 and other verses does justify the use of violence against non Muslims. Your assertion that the Quran is merely talking about self defense is just your opinion, an interpretation of the verse not shared by many Muslimz zuch as ISIS members. I don't see where the poster you are referring to ever said "I hate Muslims", please provide that exact quote.

    PS - hating Islam is not the same thing as hating Muslims, a fact that defenders of Islam often confused. Sam Harris tried to explain that fact to Ben Affleck as Ben, that overrated bad actor, was almost turning red in the face.

    My criticism of your argument is that there is often a lack of consensus in the meaning of areas of the Qur’an. Your reading of the Qur’an completely ignores the concept of abrogation, or the poetic structure of the book itself.
    You are the one who is ignoring the principles of abrogation, and history as well. Surah 9 is generally agreed ro be one the later Surahs to be written, and so its verses replace the more peaceful ones youe refer to. Here is a link that shows surah 9 is one of the last Surah to be revealed http://www.alim.org/library/quran/Al...tafsir/TIK/9/1 So don't tell me I don't understand or ignore abrogationm.

    At the start of Islam and Muhammad's career, when Muslims were weak and powerless, Muhammad preached anlive and let live policy, which is just common sense. But when Muslims becsme more powerful.and stronger, the.Quran's verses become less tolerant, and other religions are only accepted in a subordinate position, as Surah 9:29 dictates. Historically, this is what Muslims have done. Currently, Muslims in the west preach tolerance and equality, but once Muslijs are in charge others are always treated in a subordinate manner. No Muslim country treats non Muslims.as full equals.

    The Qur’an says stuff like this: .....


    “Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
    The verse that you use to show how peaceful Muslims appears to do the exact opposite! Muslims are told to kill others unless the others sumbit, that is not peaceful and tolerant, that is violent and intolerant.


    Was this only an address to Muslims in so-called pagan Arabia in the 7th century? Does it only allow for formal war? Is it only prescribing strictly defensive or retaliatory action? Questions about the exact subject matter are important for any hermeneutic. Qur’anic theology doesn’t boil down to “Qur’an quote; I win” any more than biblical theology is “Bible quote; I win”. The simplest or most obvious reading isn’t always the most accurate or theologically consistent.
    The Quran has no hisrorical context, unlike thr Bible, so we have to go by the hadiths and the Muslim behaviours through the centuries, both have which show Islam as being violent. Islam has been violent against non Muslims under its founder Muhammad and his successors, voilent against non Muslims in the later centuries such the Muslim conquest of Constantinople and turninf the Sophia Haiga into a mosque, and violent today as 911 and ISIS showed.

    [17 te=]
    Maybe your analysis is top-notch – I doubt it, but it’s possible – but there are still other ways to interpret it out there that Muslims hold to, and you haven’t shown how widespread your interpretation is or how religiously-rooted that acceptance is. It could be that people hold to a certain interpretation on cultural or political grounds instead of religious ones. [/quote]

    I agree. With 1.6 billion or so, you are going to get a range of views and intrepretations. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, and they intrepret the verses peacefully. However, many Muslims interpret the Quranic passages differently, and it is the Quran and their undertanding of it that ispires them to commit violent acts. And not just a handful either. That not all Muslims share those views doesn't change the fact.

    If it were just a few Muslims who hold these bigoted and violent views, nobody would he worrying about Islam, it is only be cause a lot do that concerns thencritics of Islam. Even if only 1% of Muslims hold terrorist views, that is still 15 million people, a lot of potential terrorist.

    How Muslims synthesize the Qur’an into a singular ideology is not as straightforward as you are making it out to be. People who know the Qur’an much better than you or I disagree quite a bit on what exactly the book means, that is why there are in fact different ideologies in the first place. That’s not even getting into disagreements on how to evaluate all those hadiths. How someone should read and interpret the Qur’an is a complex subject that touches on ethics, theology, government, and law. Over a thousand years of expert opinions and hadith compilations and evaluations make it even more intricate. If there is someone knowledgeable about the subject, preferably someone who is Muslim, that can tell me that I’m overstating the difficulty, I’d be happy to know that. In the meantime, I think you’re being too simplistic here.
    I agree there is no one interpretation of.the Quran, and the vast majority of Muslims clearly interprer it peacefully. However, a not insignificant number of Muslims don't and these Muslims have good jusrification for their violent intrepretations. Many verses of the Quran lend themselves to.these violent intrepretations, and the lack of a chronology structure ro the Quran.and principle of abrogwtion gives them solid justification in ignoring the more peaceful passages in favour of the more violent ones.

    Note, the people who interpret the Quran violently do not do so out of ignorance, they are often much more knowledgeable than the mostnMuslim. It is liberal BS to assert as you do that the Ayatollah issued the death fatwa against Rushdie out of ignorance of the Quran.



    I never said that religion has nothing to do with those countries. I’m arguing against the idea that religion has everything to do with it, which is what some people are implying.
    Again, you are being less than honest. You most certsinly are implying that the role of religion was minor and the negative aspects we criticized were not due to religion. We never never said that religion had everything to do with it, but we are do.say religion does have a major role in the violence and bigortry in these countries, while you most certainly tried ro pretend the role of religion was only minor.

    I think it’s basically a secondary factor.
    Your opinion has no basis in fact. You repeatesly showed your lack of knowledge and bias, not knowing Surah 9 was one of the last to be written.

    With your slightly simplistic histories of Iran and the Ottomans aside,
    And your complete lack of any facts oemany real history at all

    I’m going to have to disagree with you about the level of democratic rule in the Middle East. The civilian control of the military does not exist in countries like Egypt or Pakistan, which is why most democracy indices rate almost every country in the Middle East as unfree. The fact that both countries have elections does not mean that they are free and fair elections. The military suspended the constitution in Pakistan as recently as 2007, and electoral reform and transparency were major goals in the Azadi marches. Regardless of how extreme Mohamed Morsi was willing to go as would-be dictator in Egypt, he was overthrown by his own military and replaced by the minister of defense el-Sisi to act as dictator ruling through emergency law instead of Morsi.
    The fact remains that intolerant laws such as death penalties for apostacy are not imposed by a dictorial government upon an unwilling population, but thr popukation itself supports such polifies and laws because of their religious views. 70% of the Afghanistans support the death pdnalty for apostacy. Dictators in thr Muslim world are frequently more tolerant toward religious minorities than Muslim countries where the population has more say in the government.

    The lack of power the people have in Iran is even more obvious. The last two elections put a moderate president in office, but that hardly matters when the Supreme Leader controls the committee that allows him to stay in office and he gets to appoint government ministers and make major policy decisions. The large scale and almost constant protests in Iran in the last decade have been attacking the current leadership for perpetuating undemocratic rule, human rights abuses, and poverty. Considering that the government response has been violent crackdowns, I don’t think Khamenei is very responsive to the wishes of the Iranian people.
    The Iranian people were able to overthrow the Shah. While some do protest, there are other Iranians who support the regime, and perhaps more Iranian support more moderate views, there are still plenfy that don't, ormthe regime would have toppled. You keep trying to imply that all these islamic laws we objectionable are just do to a handful of individuals is simply not true. It might or might not be the majority, but death penalties for apostscy snd homosexaulity don't exist because just one man decided.to impose them. A lot of people in those countries supported the view for the laws to have been enacted.

    I’m not ignoring any problem. I’m saying that the problems are more nuanced and difficult to solve than what you’re implying.
    I didn't say religion was the only factor, I was reacting to it being implied that religion had no major role. Yes their were other factors, but you exaggerate the factors role. If you agree that religion is a criticalmfacorn, but is not the only major factor, I agree with that.

    If you say rhe role of thenIslamic religion in these countries is only a minor factor, then we can't agree.

    Again, it's not a justification; it’s an explanation. I was saying that European imperialism, colonization and decolonization, and regime change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries are important factors that brought Africa and the Middle East to where it is today.
    And I say that the effects European imperialism and colonialism is way overrated. Most of the Middle East only came under European rule after WW1, and only lasted decades. The Middle East had alresdy fallen way behind by then. Conditions became worse with the resurgence of Islam decades after decolonialism, not during decolonialism itself. It was not colonialism that caused the Muslim world to. reject printing press for cenruries


    “But the Umayyads invaded Spain!” is not a really good comeback here.
    It is just one of many, many examples. We also have thr Muslims invading India, and their massage destuction of natige temples there. We have repeated Muslim invasion of Europe that were only stopped by Muslims.being defeated - Tours, Vienna (twice), Malta, and hundreds others. You criticize European imperialism but defend Islamic imperialism, what is bad when others do with t is ok when Muslims do it.


    Do you or anyone else here hate Islam because the Moors invaded Spain in 711 AD, or because of 9/11?
    We hate Islam because it has always inspired people to kilm, 1300 years ago in Spain, 1100 years ago in India, 500 years ago in Vienna, less than a hundred years ago in Armenia, and in Iraq and Syria today religious minorities by ISIS. If Islam were no longer killing, it would not be an issue, but it is stilling killig today.

    I know that people love history here on TWC, but no one’s political opinions are driven by events 1300 years ago. Groups like Daesh didn’t just appear out of a void, there is a context and circumstances that drove its creation. If we want to stop future versions of it from existing, then we need to examine those causes so the ingredients that led to its existence can be removed.
    What you.say is true, but you are practicing what you say. You won't consider religion a primary cause, so how csn you prevent future versions from existing if you only consider causes that agree with your opinions and not all causes. Brining up thr events 1300 years ago, 1100 years ago, 500 years ago, 100 years ago and toxay estsblishes a pattern of behaviour to help idenfify the causes.

    If your analysis for why a number of Muslims have become terrorists is just the word “Islam”, well, that not only ignores everything else that’s happening in these places, it also doesn’t accomplish anything because it doesn’t actually point us towards a solution to the problem.
    Not true. Axalon did point out the aspects of Islam that inspire Muslim terrorist, you just hand waved them all away.

    1. Verses in the Koran thst direct violence against Muslims.

    2. Constant hostile tone against those the Quran disagrees with, calling them hypocrites, and liars, and repeatedly promising terrible fates for them

    3. Quran repeated telling Muslims to fight and criticizing those Muslimsnwho do not fight. Muslims who fight and kill for Islam are promised better rewards.

    4. Quran sancfioning rape, which appeals the sexuL self.satisaction of terrorist

    5. Examples given in the hadiths of Muhammad committing terrorist acts, such as having critics killed, men tortured to obtain money, sanctioning the conquest, robbery and enslavement of others. Since Muhammad is the role model for Muslims to follow, when Muslims kill critics such as in thr Charlie Hebo attack, they are merely following Muhammad's example.


    The solution is clear, reduce the influence of Islam or alter traditional Islamic beliefs:

    1. Reject sharia law

    2. Reject idea the Koran is the verbatim unaltered word of Allah, but a a book written by humans with mistakes

    3. Recognize many of the hadiths are wrong or just invented stories, even hadiths from the Bukhari and other collections traditionally regarded as authentic

    4. Recognize Muhammad as a man with a lot flaws and is not always a role model for.modern times.

    5. Recongition that Islam had been been intolerant and bigoted in the past and other religions should be given all the same rights as Muslims - if others csn convert to Islam, then Muslims must be allowed convert to other religions or no.religion as well just as easily with no greater restrictions
    .
    6. A recognition of the of the atrocities committed in the name of Islam and that they were wrong. Example, the Armenian Genocide. Most Muslims deny it happened, and thoze who do don't admit it was religious; the fsct thr equally non Turkish but Muslim Kurds proves thd genocide was religiously motivated

    7. A rejection of the lying in behalf of Islam. Muslims often lie if it promotes or protects Islam. For example, Muslims lie about Muhammad having sex with a 9 years Aisha, flat out denying it despite the best Muslim showing it is true. Some Muslims realizing that the truth can no longer be denied, are now telling other Muslimz to stop lying about it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ywJIkXvrHpo

    (Note, the book on Muslim.law " The Reliance of The Traveler" says in Book R (r8.2) that lying is obligatory if the goal is obligatory and telling the truth won't achieve the goal, and permissable if the goal is praise worthy and the truth won't work. https://www.faithfreedom.org/the-rel...the-traveller/. So converting a person to Islam is a worthy goal, and telling the about the pwnalty about apoatacy means they wom-t convert, it would be ok to lie about thr penalty for apostacy)


    That’s my problem with your so-called anti-Islamic perspective: there is no solution offered.
    One solution is obvious, give up the Islamic religion. The other is to change the religion, that is so.obvious it doesn't need to be said. Ctiticizng him for not providing solutions when you did not ask for is completrly unfair.

    Your principle is based on a view that Islam is some sort of a monolithic ideology instead of a conglomerate. It breaks down if Muslims do not agree on what you claim they are all united in. That's not even touching the bit where you said that Muslims are as bad as Nazis and Commies.
    I don't see Axalon as saying that. With a group.as large as Islam, there won't be any one ideology, true. But Axalon talks about views that, if not universal, are common views and beliefs and not just confined to a few Muslims. Not all Nazis believed in exterminating the Jews, but to use those few Nazis as an excuse to.stop criticizing Nazis is not justified, and that is what you are doing here. Maybe not all Muslims share the actions and beliefs being criticized, but mzny do and Islam is the reason they commit these barbaric acts, so the criticism is fair. The problems of Islam are not the results of a few bad individuals, but due to.common Islamic beliefs, which if not completely universal, are xommon among Muslims.

    You on the other hand, have tried to deny the role if Islam in any.significant problem, despite the clear religious motivation of the terrorist.

    [Quote]
    You have studiously ignored the branches and different schools of thought within Islam that I brought up by using ellipses and handwaving that they don’t matter for no reason. Your understanding of Islam seems to come from anti-Islam websites. [/quote=]

    You view of Islam seems to come from Muslim sites or liberal sites that give special exemption and excuses to Islam they would not give to Christianity; My views come from my own reading, and I have read the Muslim websites and see how frequently the lie.

    Here is a Muslim apologist telling how.Alexander the Great founded the Catholic Church http://en.protothema.gr/alexander-th...m-sheik-video/. While few Muslim sites contain errors so ludicrously false, many of them still have false claims, if not as ridicules.

    Here is a liberal atheist youtuber debunking common defensess of Islam among his fellow liberals https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=INZfPHFzFAI

    Here is another skeptic.debunking the claims.about Islam by the Huffington Post https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7dCsEXeYM3E

    If you don’t know enough about the Islam of Muslims themselves to distinguish between different schools of Islamic jurisprudence, then you probably aren’t knowledgeable enough about Islam to say what unites Muslim beliefs. If you are too committed to the idea that Islam is bad that you don’t recognize the existence of the modernist faction, then you are acting out of bias and your judgment is awry.
    Even if not every single Muslims the.beliefs and attitude we don't like, doesn't mean that it is wromg to criticize Islam. A few good facist doesn't mean facism shouldn't be criticized


    All I’m saying is that warning people that Muslims want to take over the world and make everybody become Muslim is a bit weird.
    Because the warning was based on the historical action of Muslims. Muslims tried to conquer until they were militarily defeated. The Muslims tried to conquer Europe and it was only because.they were stopped at Tours, Vienna, Lepanto, and other places that they didn't. Cyprus, Middle East, Egypt, north Africa, Pakistan and Bengal all became Muslim after Muslim conquest. Instsnbul, built by Christians, became Muslim after the Muslims 3rd try, 700 years after the Muslims first effort, and the Hagia Sophia church stolen by Muslims and turned into a mosque.

    And Muslims are not looking for everyome to be a Muslim, but they do want everyone to submit to Allah and Islam, if not converting to Islam, then to become subordinate to Islam, and Surah 9:29 tells Muzlims to fight until that happens.

    Christians want everyone to be Christian too. Who wouldn’t want to save people’s souls?
    Islam only wants everybody to submit to Islam, either convert to the Islamic religion, or acknowledge their subordinate position and pay tax to Muslims, as Surah 9:29 commands, Islam doesn't care about saving souls. Christians do care saving souls, but do not care abour non Christians submitting fo Christians and paying tax to Christians, not the same thing.
    .


    You misunderstand. I am only doing this because I’m banking on the Muslims remembering my kindness after they take over and begin replacing all the white people.
    Muslims can be any race. Like Ben Affleck, you are treating Muslims as a race, instead of treating Islam as the ideology it is. The criticism of Islam are about ideology, not race. Please point out where race was brought into the discussion except where you brought it in
    Last edited by Common Soldier; September 29, 2020 at 10:33 PM. Reason: typo

  14. #174

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    That's interesting, I didn't know that. I was under the impression that a lot of the most conservative laws in place in the Middle East were something of a recent phenomenon, especially after the more secular and left-wing Pan-Arabic movement failed. There's a video of Nasser making a joke about the absurdity of a law proscribing hijabs ever coming into effect, which now feels very bizarre.

    I think you see a lot of that "exotic East" thing in stuff like the popular Western perception of harems, which was mostly developed by nineteenth-century European men who weren't even allowed to go tour inside in one. And yet, that belief is kind of a progenitor for a lot of contemporary stereotypes about Middle Easterners being polygamous or whatever.
    Back then the Islamic world is much more pluralistic. Check this take on Ottomans on Wahhabism:
    Another important point to emphasize is how the Ottoman State perceived the Wahhabis from the religious aspect. Şeker indicates that the Ottoman authorities used the same weapon which was used by Wahhabis towards other Muslims. To explain, the Ottomans defined the Wahhabis as superstitious and blamed them for creating new bid‘at because they claimed to remove bid‘at from Islam. Therefore, the Ottomans categorized them as superstitious because of their beliefs like the Wahhabis considered the Ottomans.

    Furthermore, the document dated on 28th of April 1803 also indicates that the Ottomans used the word ‘mülhid’(unbeliever) to define the Wahhabis266 like the Wahhabis labelled the Ottoman pilgrims as ‘müşrik’ (polytheist). Besides, the Ottoman government used the term of “Kharijites” to define Wahhabis since it saw itself as the main representative of Islam, so the attack of the Wahhabis meant for the Ottomans as a direct attack on Islam, since they regarded their Islamic practices as proper Islam.

    Like Şeker, Commins and Güner also agree that by 1802, the Ottomans had been mounting a doctrinal campaign, sending official tracts refuting Wahhabi positions and likening them to the Kharijites of early Islamic times.”This is because the Wahhabis rejected all Sunni madhabs by ascribing them unbelief (takfir). In addition to this term, Güner indicates that additional terms like İbâdi, Rafizî, Hârici-i Suûd, Hâricî-i menhus, Hâricî-i Abdülvehhab were used in the Ottoman official correspondences to name the Wahhabis. As noted in previous parts of the thesis, both Wahhabis and the Kharijites shared similar understanding of the Qur’an. Yet, Güner puts forward that although there were parallelisms among them, this does not mean that Wahhabis were the continuation of the Kharijites. But, according to her, although religion was in the center of all these criticizing discourses and fights, the Ottomans saw the Wahhabi threat primarily as a security problem. The threat they posed towards the Ottoman authorities in the region influenced the discourse of the Ottoman State towards them. However, although the Wahhabi threat shaped the discourse of the Ottomans, it does not mean that political implications of the Wahhabi movement were more important than its religious implications for the Ottoman Empire. That is to say, even though the primary concern of the Sublime Porte was to provide security and order in Haramayn, it gave equal weight to understand their creeds, and to negate their religious doctrine. The decision of sending alim, Adem Efendi, as its emissary to the Wahhabis to understand their creeds, and to convince them about the principal contradiction of Wahhabism to Sunni Islam276 proves that Ottomans did not merely consider the Wahhabi movement as a political problem, but also a religious problem. Also, its seems that the efforts of the Sublime Porte to convince the Wahhabis to change their views continued until 1813.

    The document dated on 3th of January 1813 shows that the Saudi leader not only sent some epistles and statements of Ulama beside his letters to the governor of Damascus, Suleiman Pasha, but also declared the true believers (Ahl al-tawhid) as unbelievers. These documents were translated and sent to Istanbul with their original copy. In the document, it is stated that although response letters were written in conformity with Sharia and logic to convince him, these letters were far from convincing him because he maintained his stubbornness. This is why, it is stated that there was no need to send response from Istanbul; the response of Suleiman Pasha was enough. This was notified by Istanbul and the center found it appropriate for Suleiman Pasha to send a response letter. Therefore, this situation also proves that the Ottomans considered the Wahhabis not only a political problem but also a serious religious problem, as well.

    Apart from the official documentation, we know that the Ottoman chronicles also discussed Wahhabism in their accounts. Güner states that in the Ottoman historiography, the first Ottoman chronicle talking about the Wahhabis was the chronicle of İzzi Süleyman Efendi in 1752. According to her, almost all the Ottoman chronicles shared similar ideas about the Wahhabis. To illustrate, they saw the Wahhabi problem both as a religious and a security problem. Yet, they considered this security problem like other security problems which occurred in the other parts of the Empire.Also, the author states that chroniclers like İzzi Süleyman Efendi, Ahmet Cevdet Pasha, Eyüp Sabri Pasha mostly reflected the official discourse of the government which evaluated the Wahhabism as a superstitious
    belief.

    However, the late Ottoman author Hüseyin Kazım appears to be noteworthy since he indicated a separate attitude from the official discourse. Both Güner and Şeker show that unlike the abovementioned authors, he did not reprove the movement because he saw its discourse within the boundaries of ahl al-sunnah. In fact, he supported their aim about removing the bid‘a and turning back to the original Islam.28

    Yet, Şeker points to the fact that Cevdet Pasha’s account is crucial in terms of analyzing the Wahhabis because those works compiled after Cevdet Pasha did little but repeating the stance and rhetoric of his account. According to Cevdet Pasha, the reasons of the spread of Wahhabism were based on blood relations (asabiyyah), and geographical condition of the region, Najd which was a closed region to outside world, and always witnessed the different belief systems throughout history. Also, he states other reasons which explain the spread of the Wahhabi movement. According to him, the Ottomans did not interfere with the movement on time since they did not evaluate the Wahhabis as a political threat, and likened them to Kadızadelis. Therefore, he asserts that, if the Ottomans intervened them in the beginning, they could have prevented Wahhabism to become a political threat to the Ottoman Empire in the first place. Şeker provides names such as Eyüp Sabri Pasha, Midhat Pasha and Ahmet Midhat Efendi as Cevdet Pasha’s contemporary colleagues who shared similar ideas with him. As the followers of Cevdet Pasha, he states names like Abdurrahman Şeref, Haydari-zade, Hüseyin Hüsni, Şehbenderzade Filibeli Ahmet Hilmi, Yusuf Akçura, İzmirli İsmail Hakkı, Said Nursi, Ömer Rıza and Zakir Kadiri.
    As you know the British made this movement into a world player to battle Ottomans. Then in turn, through their oil money, the Saudis basically financed their ideologies across the globe. As late as the post 1950s world, even Europe chose Saudi Islam over Turkish Islam as Turkey had a lot of control over which imams would serve in mosques throughout in Europe due to a large Turkish population. European powers, in an attempt to undermine Turkish influence turned to Saudi money to finance mosques and communities.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; September 30, 2020 at 06:50 AM.
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  15. #175

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Back then the Islamic world is much more pluralistic. Check this take on Ottomans on Wahhabism:


    As you know the British made this movement into a world player to battle Ottomans. Then in turn, through their oil money, the Saudis basically financed their ideologies across the globe. As late as the post 1950s world, even Europe chose Saudi Islam over Turkish Islam as Turkey had a lot of control over which imams would serve in mosques throughout in Europe due to a large Turkish population. European powers, in an attempt to undermine Turkish influence turned to Saudi money to finance mosques and communities.
    How prevalent is the Wahhabism in the Islam world? I read in Wikipedia even.Saudi Arabia it is not a majority, anywhere from 15% to 40%, so it must be less outside of Saudia Arabia.

    It seems like a lot of Westerners, myself included, conflate Wahhabism with Islam, and their view of Islam conjures up an image of Wahhabism, which Insee now is not fair. Because of Saudi Arsbia promoting it, it is more visible than other branches of Islam.

    Also, somewhat u related, how does the Hanafi school compare with the Shafi'i school? I have read a fiqh of the. Shafi'i school, which does call for dearh of apoatates, female circumcism, and othrt things westerners find objectionsble, and I am curious how Hanafi school differs. I was shocked that the. Shafi'i school not only permits lying but considers it obligatory in some cases, and wonder if that is just the Shafi'i school.

  16. #176

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I have read a fiqh of the. Shafi'i school, which does call for dearh of apoatates, female circumcism, and othrt things westerners find objectionsble, and I am curious how Hanafi school differs.
    Shafi'i school requires giving apostates a chance to repent. Hanafi only recommends it. In the Hanafi, school women are not executed for apostasy, they are confined and to be beaten regularly until they repent.
    Hanafi school does not require females be circumcised, but does consider it good.

  17. #177

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Shafi'i school requires giving apostates a chance to repent. Hanafi only recommends it. In the Hanafi, school women are not executed for apostasy, they are confined and to be beaten regularly until they repent.
    Hanafi school does not require females be circumcised, but does consider it good.
    Thanks for the information. I was kind of hoping the Hanafi school was much more tolerant, but that really isn't the case. Is there a school of Sharia that doesn't call for killing apostates, and doesn't recommend/demand female genital mutilation?

    Also, does the Hanafi school also say lying is required if the goal of the lie is obligatory and telling the truth won't achieve that goal as the Shafi'i school does?

    Hanafi is a tiny bit better in some ways but worse in others - at least Shafi'i requires fair warning to apostate before killing. If you have any links to the other schools of sharia, I would br interestednin them.?

  18. #178
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    The militant branch of Salafism originates in Wahhabism.

    For deeper understanding, what political or militant salafism is:

    https://oxfordre.com/religion/view/1...99340378-e-255
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  19. #179
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    As I have said previously, the greatest fear a Muslim has is being born a Muslim. A phobia for them starts by being born into Islam because they are not allowed to think outside their box. They don't hate outsiders because they are outsiders rather because they are taught to. The Imam holds the power over them and fear is the objective to make sure they don't disobey. It is not Allah they fear most rather the Imam and that fellow knows it. So, when we talk of Islamophobia it's not just us outsiders who may or may not feel it rather it includes the poor old voiceless Muslim himself.

  20. #180

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As I have said previously, the greatest fear a Muslim has is being born a Muslim. A phobia for them starts by being born into Islam because they are not allowed to think outside their box. They don't hate outsiders because they are outsiders rather because they are taught to. The Imam holds the power over them and fear is the objective to make sure they don't disobey. It is not Allah they fear most rather the Imam and that fellow knows it. So, when we talk of Islamophobia it's not just us outsiders who may or may not feel it rather it includes the poor old voiceless Muslim himself.
    What you're describing is true for any under-developed community regardless of their religion. For many others its just your creation.
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