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Thread: Islamophobia in the West

  1. #1

    Default Islamophobia in the West

    Islamophobia expresses itself in many ways. Fear of the other. The dehumanizing of groups seen as the enemy of "civilized peoples". It tends to ignore that while Europe was in the dark ages Islam was the center of thought, science, art, poetry and carried the flame from which the Renaissance flourished.

    Often it comes from a fear of sameness. Christians, particularly the more the sensitive younger less established sects, are a place it is commonly found. https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/amer...n-perspective/

    Common Islamophobic ideas include pretending that Islam is a religion of violence, a focus on 9/11 as being something other it was, and denying the shared history, texts, and beliefs common to both Islam and Christianity.
    https://theconversation.com/in-spite...same-god-83102

    Let us discuss Islamophobia, its causes, possible solutions, the overlap between all Abrahamic religions as a common ground, and how believing Islam is any more a religion of violence than others is not only silly, but wrong.

    As Pope Francis said, "It isn't right to say that Islam is a terrorist faith"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USV4...AgLQ&index=179

  2. #2

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    as long as kafirphobia also exist then don't blame the reaction
    fyi i'm indonesian i'm more than happy to give some examples that has happened in here

  3. #3

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    You should consider starting a separate thread for that. They love Islam Bashing on here. It would be very popular. Be sure to use ridiculous sources, ignore any evidence that such problems are universal to all religions because entrenched power oppresses everywhere and the insistence that one dogma of belief is the absolute is a form of insanity commensurate with the depth of resolve.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    You should consider starting a separate thread for that. They love Islam Bashing on here. It would be very popular. Be sure to use ridiculous sources, ignore any evidence that such problems are universal to all religions because entrenched power oppresses everywhere and the insistence that one dogma of belief is the absolute is a form of insanity commensurate with the depth of resolve.
    because it's related
    why only blame islamphobia while keep ignoring kafirphobia?

    if islamic world don't want to take responsibility either
    then don't blame others for reacting

  5. #5

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Minus the word reacting I totally agree with you. All sides are vile. An endemic problem in religious belief. However this thread is about Islamophobia and people get their panties real twisted on here if you make existence complex. Simplicity is the watchword.

    Also this is a eurocentric site. I think indonesia counts, but most here will disagree with me. This thread is about Islamophobia in the West. I would love to hear about your experiences but I also warn you, experience is a dirty word here. Simplicity, Eurocentrism, Thinly veiled White Supremacy. That is what is going to get you the looks.

    Lets try to keep on topic gents. This thread won't be open for long. I will buy it some time:

    Islam is bad.

    Christianity included in your kafirphobia thread is a mixed bag. The last thing you want if you care about an intelligent thread are basic arguments.
    Last edited by wanderwegger; August 14, 2020 at 12:44 AM.

  6. #6
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    How about for starters that I don't and never have taught my children, nor have I ever heard of a non Muslim preacher doing so, to go out and kill people. So, why are Muslims persuaded to do that not just sporadically but on a regular occurrence?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    I'll state my position simply. I don't like religions. While I acknowledge that long ago in human history, they had their place and might have been even indispensable, they're obsolete now and only hindrance and danger. Inherently, they limit freedom of thought and thus hinder progress, because religions are based on blind faith and thus there are taboos on topics, and they're inherently dangerous because every religion has huge potential to create fanatics-after all, if you believe in something greater than humanity that dictates how they should behave and rewards and punishes people accordingly, there's only a small step toward violence, as "they're better off converted and dead than living infidels".
    The more authoritative and culturally pervasive religion is, the more prone to such behavior it is. And Islam is the worst out of all major religion in this regard. Mostly through hadiths, it carries with it the entire barbarism of the time and place that spawned Muhammad, and if left alone, it will slide toward it. The pervasiveness hinders cooperation with other cultures, drives it into mental isolation and makes immigrants resistant to assimilation into society. This is exemplified by all those Muslim ghettos springing up in England and other western European countries in wake of the immigration waves.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    How about for starters that I don't and never have taught my children, nor have I ever heard of a non Muslim preacher doing so, to go out and kill people. So, why are Muslims persuaded to do that not just sporadically but on a regular occurrence?
    Also a regular occurrence amongst Christian pastors, since you claim you haven't heard it, here is a link to a video of a Christian minister calling for killing all gay people. I can find out lots more if need be. Warning. This video is nuts. Of course, he cites the bible as his justification.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83kIAfuKoE

  9. #9
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Also a regular occurrence amongst Christian pastors, since you claim you haven't heard it, here is a link to a video of a Christian minister calling for killing all gay people. I can find out lots more if need be. Warning. This video is nuts. Of course, he cites the bible as his justification.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83kIAfuKoE
    wanderwegger,

    And after his so-called sermon how many went out and killed any homosexuals? God finds homosexuality repugnant that's true but as in all sin homosexuality can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. As Paul pointed out some in the church were homosexual but are not now thanks to Jesus. Now having been at sermons inside the Church of Scotland, Church of England, the Baptist Church as well as other Fellowships I have never heard any preacher call for the death of homosexuals but if I was a Muslim I suspect that would be a different matter as in that religion today homosexuals are killed when exposed. You see in the New Covenant God is the Avenger and Christians are obliged to follow the words of Jesus to love our enemies, sinners, just as we love ourselves so when Anderson talks like he does he is unChristianly disobeying God. A Christian cannot use the Old Law because they are no longer under it, it being fulfilled for them by the death of Christ thus making as is written God being the Avenger, not man.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Islamophobia expresses itself in many ways. Fear of the other. The dehumanizing of groups seen as the enemy of "civilized peoples". It tends to ignore that while Europe was in the dark ages Islam was the center of thought, science, art, poetry and carried the flame from which the Renaissance flourished.
    Some of what is called "Islamaphobia" is any criticism at all of Islam. While it is true there may be genuine "Islamaphobia", there is equally "Islamadenialism" who deny there is any link between Islam and violence committed by Muslims worldwide. When Islam so heavily shapes these Muslims worldview, it is denialism to refuse to admit any connectionm

    94% of Americans killed by terrorism were killed by Muslims who make up less than 2% of the population, and say Islam has nothing to with these figures is naive and our of touch with reality. Fort Hood and Orland shootings show 911 was not a one time Muslim terrorist event, and when you see scores of terrorist events committed by Muslims worldwide, such as the London Subway and Paris attacks, there is legitimate cause of concern.

    As Sam Harris says, "we have to be able criticize bad ideas and Islam is the mother load of ideas" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60. When 13 countries in the world that have the death penalty for apostacy are all Muslim, that is a problem with Islam itself, not just a few Muslims. https://www.indy100.com/article/the-...th--Z110j2Uwxb If we label any criticism of Islam as Islamaphobia, it wi prevent us from addressing genuine Islamaphobia. And Muslim apologist attempting to divert criticism.saying other religions were jusr as bad in the past wont fly, because Muslims are doing it today and others aren't, and what is happpening now is what matters. a


    If there has been neglect of Islam's contribution and achievements, there has been an equal whitewashing of the violence of Islam - repeatedly Europe had to fend off Muslim attacks at Tours, at Vienna. Centuries before the Atlantic Slave trade Africa Muslims were enslaving European. Most of the Middle East used to be Christian lands until Muslims violently conquered it.

    Often it comes from a fear of sameness. Christians, particularly the more the sensitive younger less established sects, are a place it is commonly found. https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/amer...n-perspective/
    Mostly it is because of Muslim terrorist attacks and.Muslims treating non Muslims as inferiors whereever they are in charge. Muslim men can marry non Muslim.women but the reverse is not true in many Muslim countries.

    Common Islamophobic ideas include pretending that Islam is a religion of violence, a focus on 9/11 as being something other it was, and denying the shared history, texts, and beliefs common to both Islam and Christianity.
    https://theconversation.com/in-spite...same-god-83102
    And it is Islamic.denialism also to oretend that a lot of violence isn't being done by people people inspired by Islam. 911 was not an isolated incident, as many othrr Islamic acts of violence show. It is denialism not ot acknowledge many of the Muslims lands were stolen from others by acts of Muslim violence. Istanbul used to be a leading Christian city, and its, the church one of the greatest Christian church, until the city was stolen by Muslims,its church turned into a mosque, and its Christisn population mostly expelled. There is shared history but not all of it was good.

    While Islam many basic beliefs with Christians and Jews, there are fundamental differences with Christians as well, and there is no share texted between Islam and the others, the Koran and the Bible are different, and Muslims don't recognize the Bible of Christians and Jews, and they do not recognize the Koran. There are just some common figures and stories, with the Koran sometime conficting with the Bible.

    Let us discuss Islamophobia, its causes, possible solutions, the overlap between all Abrahamic religions as a common ground, and how believing Islam is any more a religion of violence than others is not only silly, but wrong.
    It is not silly are wrong to say that Islamic is more violent today than the other religion, it is the truth. In.the past that the.others.may have been violent, but not today and today is what matters.

    When you give examples of Christians capturing Muslim school girls as Boko Haram and Christias beheading Muslim school girls as Muslims did Christian school girls https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005...hristian_girls. then you can say Islam is no more.violent than the other relligions, but not before.

    As Pope Francis said, "It isn't right to say that Islam is a terrorist faith
    True, but no religion in the world is a terrorist faith. But Islam does promote more terrrorism than others

  11. #11

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    The previous post was not bash Islam but to demonstrate that there are legitimate reasons to criticize Islam, so we don't lump any criticism of with Islamphobia, as the Ben Afflecks and the Huffington Post of the world do.

    If we want to have a discussion on Islamphobia, lets distinguish true Islamaphobia from mere criticism of Islam, however harsh. Christianity has been facing criticism for many years, but its believers don't riot and kill people because someone puts out a cartoon in bad taste about Jesus, as Muslims did on the Mohammed cartoon.

    Islam can change, but we and Muslims need to be honest and recognize Islam currently has more issues than other religions with regard to violence and other things.

    So let's have a discussion on real Islamaohia, not just criticism of Islam.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 16, 2020 at 09:52 PM. Reason: eliminatd dup

  12. #12

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Some of what is called "Islamaphobia" is any criticism at all of Islam. While it is true there may be genuine "Islamaphobia"
    May there be genuine Islamphobia, like when Trump recently said Kamala Harris may be constitutionally qualified to be Vice President.

    Such a statement implies maybe not.

    So is there genuine Islamophobia? Or isn't there? May be you aren't sure. You just don't know. That is a valid answer too. Is it you just aren't knowledgable enough about Islam and society to know?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Also a regular occurrence amongst Christian pastors, since you claim you haven't heard it, here is a link to a video of a Christian minister calling for killing all gay people. I can find out lots more if need be. Warning. This video is nuts. Of course, he cites the bible as his justification.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83kIAfuKoE
    Gays are actually beinf killed by Muslims due to Islam' influence and there are 11 Muslim countries where homosexuality is punishable by death https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/04/t...ajority-muslim?

    That is far worse than the mean speech by a few Christian pastors. Whether by the state operating Islamic principles of sharia law or Muslimz acting on their own, as in the Orlando Gay Night Club Shooting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orla...ub_shootingres Muslims are killing homosexuals due to Islam.m

    I think you will agree killing is far worse than few mean words and killings done by countries operating in accordance sharia law is far far worse than the individual opinions of a few pastors.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 16, 2020 at 10:45 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Do you think I am unaware of this? Basics statement was he has never heard Christian preachers call for murder. My post let him hear it. All over you and I have the same debate. My argument is all these religions are filled with vile morally corrupt people. As are all institutions as such everywhere. Your argument is Islam bad Christianity good White people great.

    What are your thoughts on whether Islamophobia may be real or may be not? Still interested.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    May there be genuine Islamphobia, like when Trump recently said Kamala Harris may be constitutionally qualified to be Vice President.

    Such a statement implies maybe not.
    Did Trump state it was because she was a Muslim? And is she a Muslim?

    Unless Trumps stated reason was solely do here being a Muslim we can't say it Islamaphobia


    So is there genuine Islamophobia? Or isn't there? May be you aren't sure. You just don't know. That is a valid answer too. Is it you just aren't knowledgable enough about Islam and society to know?

    Establish a defintion of Islamaphobia and bring examples of it than I will judge. I do know that claims of Islamaphobia are way, way, way, way overrated. All the claims I have seen have not been valid, just accusations against those who did something Muslims did not like, as in criticizing Islam

  16. #16

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    You said you have never heard a Christian preacher call for murder. Now you have. One would think one would be grateful to one who has shown them that they were wrong. It you were wrong about Christian preachers calling for murder, what else about Christianity might you be wrong about?

    Your welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    wanderwegger,

    And after his so-called sermon how many went out and killed any homosexuals? God finds homosexuality repugnant that's true but as in all sin homosexuality can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. As Paul pointed out some in the church were homosexual but are not now thanks to Jesus. Now having been at sermons inside the Church of Scotland, Church of England, the Baptist Church as well as other Fellowships I have never heard any preacher call for the death of homosexuals but if I was a Muslim I suspect that would be a different matter as in that religion today homosexuals are killed when exposed. You see in the New Covenant God is the Avenger and Christians are obliged to follow the words of Jesus to love our enemies, sinners, just as we love ourselves so when Anderson talks like he does he is unChristianly disobeying God. A Christian cannot use the Old Law because they are no longer under it, it being fulfilled for them by the death of Christ thus making as is written God being the Avenger, not man.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Did Trump state it was because she was a Muslim? And is she a Muslim?

    Unless Trumps stated reason was solely do here being a Muslim we can't say it Islamaphobia

    Establish a defintion of Islamaphobia and bring examples of it than I will judge. I do know that claims of Islamaphobia are way, way, way, way overrated. All the claims I have seen have not been valid, just accusations against those who did something Muslims did not like, as in criticizing Islam
    You misunderstood the Trump thing. My argument was you said there May Be Islamophobia as in it may exist.
    Just like Trump often says things may be. Trump is plenty guilty of Islamophobia but in this case just anti immigrantism with his usual touch of racism.

    What is your source that claims of Islamophobia are way way overrated?
    What is your definition?

    I am satisfied using it as the baseline. If you don't know how you would define it. This will do.

    The University of California at Berkeley's Islamophobia Research & Documentation Project suggested this working definition: "Islamophobia is a contrived fear or prejudice fomented by the existing Eurocentric and Orientalist global power structure. It is directed at a perceived or real Muslim threat through the maintenance and extension of existing disparities in economic, political, social and cultural relations, while rationalizing the necessity to deploy violence as a tool to achieve 'civilizational rehab' of the target communities (Muslim or otherwise). Islamophobia reintroduces and reaffirms a global racial structure through which resource distribution disparities are maintained and extended.
    Last edited by wanderwegger; August 16, 2020 at 11:11 PM.

  18. #18
    pacifism's Avatar see the day
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    May there be genuine Islamphobia, like when Trump recently said Kamala Harris may be constitutionally qualified to be Vice President.

    Such a statement implies maybe not.

    So is there genuine Islamophobia? Or isn't there? May be you aren't sure. You just don't know. That is a valid answer too. Is it you just aren't knowledgable enough about Islam and society to know?
    Not to take too much wind from your sails, but Senator Harris attends a mainline Baptist church.

    Despite the nationalist rhetoric in the U.S. and Europe, Christians are a decreasingly white religious group.
    Last edited by pacifism; August 16, 2020 at 11:35 PM.
    Being a little bit more kind and nuanced on the internet can go a long way.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    Not to take too much wind from your sails, but Senator Harris attends a mainline Baptist church.
    Yeah, I thought that by bolding the may be in Common's statement people would follow the Trump thing was an example of how using may be in an argument is disingenuous. Explained in a follow up post above.

    With the clarity I see the world and the breathe of knowledge I am wedded too I am disappointed it wasn't assumed further that I know Joe Biden didn't pick a Black Muslim Woman as his running mate.

  20. #20
    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Islamophobia is a good thing. We should be afraid. Just take a look at those societies or communities in which Islam is dominant. Prejudice can be a good thing, and prejudice toward Islam ought to be a standard quality of every good citizen.

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