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Thread: Islamophobia in the West

  1. #121
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    Let me put it this way: look at the stances and arguments of people you are criticizing and those criticizing you. Then look at the stances and arguments of the people who you aren't criticizing and aren't criticizing you. Even though your word choice gives you plausible deniability, I think we all know exactly which side you're on here. Coy arguments and pseudo-academic language doesn't change that.

    I'll let you have the last word, if it means that much to you.
    I'm glad we can at least agree that language matters (though I can assure you that threat perception/misperception is a well-established phrase in academia).

    Great. We're no better than people in developing countries struggling with social issues such as adults with no education or civil wars.
    Having an education doesn't make you "better" than others; I have just as often found the opposite to be true.

  2. #122

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    The negative view on Islam and Muslims exist because the actions of a small number of Muslims and several oppressive and brutal dictatorships that most Muslims live under is used as a blunt tool to write off billions of Other PeopleTM as enemies. I suppose these people don't realize or don't care that being antagonistic and hostile towards the other side only makes conflicts worse.
    Several? Every Muslim state with few exceptions enforces Islamic laws and discriminates non-Muslims. Parallel Islamic immigrant societies in Europe also have problems with enforcing religious customs and disregarding local secular laws - hence honor killings, rape gangs, etc. If they were "just a few bad apples" then that wouldn't be the case.
    So far, your nuanced understanding of Islam as a religion reminds me of an American neoconservative's during the Iraq War.
    US attacked Iraq because Saddam was ditching petrodollar, not because he was a Muslim. If it was a decision-making factor for American globalists, they'd be invading Saudi Arabia.
    Also what is non-nuanced about understanding that their teachings are saying that people like me should be killed or forcefully converted because not only I'm not a Muslim, I'm actually a "Pagan"?
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; September 20, 2020 at 06:42 PM.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Several? Every Muslim state with few exceptions enforces Islamic laws and discriminates non-Muslims. Parallel Islamic immigrant societies in Europe also have problems with enforcing religious customs and disregarding local secular laws - hence honor killings, rape gangs, etc. If they were "just a few bad apples" then that wouldn't be the case.
    There are only several exceptions, my mistake. Anyway, I would say that a dictatorship oppresses all of the people who have to follow its arbitrary laws. Dictatorships are designed to give the people the bare minimum of resources needed to keep the state afloat, so the Muslim people in those countries are being oppressed as well. It's not as bad as the additional discrimination for being a religious minority, clearly, but still not a great place to live. I can't say that I blame anyone -- Muslims and non-Muslims -- for wanting to leave such a country.

    You're going to have be more specific about "disregarding local secular laws", because that just sounds like crime to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    US attacked Iraq because Saddam was ditching petrodollar, not because he was a Muslim. If it was a decision-making factor for American globalists, they'd be invading Saudi Arabia.
    Also what is non-nuanced about understanding that their teachings are saying that people like me should be killed or forcefully converted because not only I'm not a Muslim, I'm actually a "Pagan"?
    I didn't say that you were pro-Iraq War. I said that the level of depth and insight about Islam that you have offered so far is about the same as one of those neocon jingoists during early 2000s. Anyone who was alive back then knows what I'm getting at.

    Out of curiosity, what's the difference between Pagan and "Pagan"?
    Being a little bit more kind and nuanced on the internet can go a long way.
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  4. #124
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    If someone insisted on it, yes.
    Then I insist for the lulz, thank you for your consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    Exactly one sentence ago you just said that Muslims can never leave Islam or they'd be killed. I don't think you are being very thoughtful with your comebacks here.
    In western countries they have the freedom to leave islam, despite islam demanding their death for that. Obviously this freedom does not mix well with a cult literally named "submission"

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    They are very real and very terrible. All of them also predate Islam or are not unique to Muslims.
    90% of people on UK terror watchlists are muslims, 99% of FGM committed by muslims.... sorry, the "not unique to them" card wont work here.

  5. #125

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    In western countries they have the freedom to leave islam, despite islam demanding their death for that. Obviously this freedom does not mix well with a cult literally named "submission"
    Islam doesn't demand death for leaving Islam. There is no Earthly punishment prescribed for it in the Quran. Misrepresenting facts is a common companion of Islamophobia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    90% of people on UK terror watchlists are muslims, 99% of FGM committed by muslims.... sorry, the "not unique to them" card wont work here.
    99% of FGM is not committed by Muslims. It's a region specific practice, not religion specific. Vast majority of Muslims don't practice it. Making statistics up is a common companion of Islamophobia.
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  6. #126

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    There are only several exceptions, my mistake. Anyway, I would say that a dictatorship oppresses all of the people who have to follow its arbitrary laws. Dictatorships are designed to give the people the bare minimum of resources needed to keep the state afloat, so the Muslim people in those countries are being oppressed as well. It's not as bad as the additional discrimination for being a religious minority, clearly, but still not a great place to live. I can't say that I blame anyone -- Muslims and non-Muslims -- for wanting to leave such a country.

    You're going to have be more specific about "disregarding local secular laws", because that just sounds like crime to me.
    You have a mistaken and absurd idea that people who were raised and lived all their lives in the country with enforced Islamic orthodoxy will somehow instantly flip to the fringe, liberal interpretation of Islam once they reach Europe, and that the Islamic countries are all tyrannies where small minority of Orthodox muslims rules with iron fist over cast majority of liberals. That is not so. Look at the Muslim countries. In Turkey, Erdogan is overturning secularization with vast popular support. Indonesia is being driven more and more in the direction of intolerant, orthodox Islam by the population. Iranian Islamic Revolution was a popular uprising, driven by majority of the population. Saudi Arabia and UAE are not facing much internal pressure that you'd expect from theocracy without popular support. And so on...it is the liberal Islam that's fringe, not orthodoxy.

    As for last line, that's the point. Those are crimes in the Europe. But the perpetrators, who grew up in different culture, don't consider it a crime, and neither does the closed community around them. Now do you understand the issue?

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Islam doesn't demand death for leaving Islam. There is no Earthly punishment prescribed for it in the Quran. Misrepresenting facts is a common companion of Islamophobia.
    Aha, I totally believe you. Maybe somebody should convince those muslims about this too.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    99% of FGM is not committed by Muslims. It's a region specific practice, not religion specific. Vast majority of Muslims don't practice it. Making statistics up is a common companion of Islamophobia.
    I've been talking about the UK and western countries. But you know this.
    Also, again, islam isnt "just a religion".

    "misrepresenting", "making up" hmm what are those words in arabic? IIRC Taqiya? I should look this up.

  8. #128

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Aha, I totally believe you. Maybe somebody should convince those muslims about this too.
    Sure. Islam needs an enlightenment for Muslims to shed all these man made cultural injections. That, however, doesn't mean you can attribute such concepts to religion itself while holding any random Muslim responsible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I've been talking about the UK and western countries. But you know this.
    Also, again, islam isnt "just a religion".
    OK. Goal shift. FGM is even less prevalent in the Muslim community of Europe. No matter how high the percentage you cook up its a minuscule compared to Muslim women living in Europe. Its a practice largely condemned by the Muslim community as well as the religious organizations in UK. Yet, you're trying to attribute it to Muslims in general.

    By the same logic all Christians are pedophiles. Islam is a religion. Muslim community is not with many shapes and colors.
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  9. #129

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    There are only several exceptions, my mistake. Anyway, I would say that a dictatorship oppresses all of the people who have to follow its arbitrary laws. Dictatorships are designed to give the people the bare minimum of resources needed to keep the state afloat, so the Muslim people in those countries are being oppressed as well. It's not as bad as the additional discrimination for being a religious minority, clearly, but still not a great place to live. I can't say that I blame anyone -- Muslims and non-Muslims -- for wanting to leave such a country.

    You're going to have be more specific about "disregarding local secular laws", because that just sounds like crime to me.
    Those are not few - in fact I can only name a few exceptions of Muslim-majority nations that are not theocratic in nature.
    Parallel societies of immigrants within Europe have same problem of being unable to assimilate and essentially maintaining same religious customs, including Islamic rape culture.
    I didn't say that you were pro-Iraq War. I said that the level of depth and insight about Islam that you have offered so far is about the same as one of those neocon jingoists during early 2000s. Anyone who was alive back then knows what I'm getting at.

    Out of curiosity, what's the difference between Pagan and "Pagan"?
    Neocon jingoists didn't go after Islam, they want after governments that ed with petrodollar. Like I said, if Bush and Cheney just din't like Islam, Saudi Arabia would have had freedom imported to it just like Iraq did.
    I'm talking about Islamic definition of the word, which is anyone who isn't a follower of Abrahamic religion.
    Sorry, but me being killed under religious laws is quite rational reason to not like Islam.

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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sure. Islam needs an enlightenment for Muslims to shed all these man made cultural injections. That, however, doesn't mean you can attribute such concepts to religion itself while holding any random Muslim responsible.
    I hold those muslims responsible who support this which is like what, 40% of them? almost like a coin flip.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    OK. Goal shift. FGM is even less prevalent in the Muslim community of Europe. No matter how high the percentage you cook up its a minuscule compared to Muslim women living in Europe. Its a practice largely condemned by the Muslim community as well as the religious organizations in UK. Yet, you're trying to attribute it to Muslims in general.

    By the same logic all Christians are pedophiles. Islam is a religion. Muslim community is not with many shapes and colors.
    Oh no, no goal shift here although you tried to make this about "FGM globaly" and now "FGM amongst muslims" but the fact is if you have FGM in a western country than there is a pretty solid chance its present because of muslims, because they just couldnt leave this third world savageness behind, along with other things, when they migrated to Europe.

  11. #131

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I hold those muslims responsible who support this which is like what, 40% of them? almost like a coin flip.
    36.48% to be exact, based on the PEW polls. Given most of those live in very poor countries with very little socio-economic support in their life you're highly unlikely to even meet a single Muslim in your own country or most places you can travel.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Oh no, no goal shift here although you tried to make this about "FGM globaly" and now "FGM amongst muslims" but the fact is if you have FGM in a western country than there is a pretty solid chance its present because of muslims, because they just couldnt leave this third world savageness behind, along with other things, when they migrated to Europe.
    Vast majority of Muslims in any European country never had anything to do with FGM. So, yeah, vast majority of them left it behind or they were opposing it to begin with.
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  12. #132
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    In western countries they have the freedom to leave islam, despite islam demanding their death for that. Obviously this freedom does not mix well with a cult literally named "submission"
    I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about you. You can't make anyone abandon their faith. But you can choose how you treat other people. I think the sentiment you've chosen to express towards Muslims, that it's rational to hate them and never condemning Darren Osborne when given the opportunity, is the most hypocritical stance taken in this thread so far. The rationale you have expressed is no better than the rationale you accuse Muslims of having.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    90% of people on UK terror watchlists are muslims, 99% of FGM committed by muslims.... sorry, the "not unique to them" card wont work here.
    Even if the 10% number is true, which I doubt, it means that terrorism isn't unique to Muslims. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. My argument so far is that there are plenty of reasons, other than being Muslim, that caused Muslims terrorists to be terrorists. Acting like religion is the one and only cause is over-simplistic.

    Female genital mutilation has been done for a long time, but is becoming less common all over the world. It was done in Egypt six centuries before Muhammad was born. Non-Muslim doctors in the U.S. used it to treat fake diseases like female hysteria as late as the 1960s. It is objectively not unique to Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    You have a mistaken and absurd idea that people who were raised and lived all their lives in the country with enforced Islamic orthodoxy will somehow instantly flip to the fringe, liberal interpretation of Islam once they reach Europe, and that the Islamic countries are all tyrannies where small minority of Orthodox muslims rules with iron fist over cast majority of liberals. That is not so. Look at the Muslim countries.
    I never said that. I said that the religious views of Muslims aren't monolithic. There are Muslims who basically share the same values as us, and that's something I think we should welcome. If not, I still think that integrating immigrants from developing countries won't happen overnight. It will probably take years or even decades, like it did for other unwanted immigrants. That's if western countries make the effort to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    As for last line, that's the point. Those are crimes in the Europe. But the perpetrators, who grew up in different culture, don't consider it a crime, and neither does the closed community around them. Now do you understand the issue?
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Those are not few - in fact I can only name a few exceptions of Muslim-majority nations that are not theocratic in nature.
    Parallel societies of immigrants within Europe have same problem of being unable to assimilate and essentially maintaining same religious customs, including Islamic rape culture.
    Again, that just sounds like crime. When crimes happen, they are investigated and punished. Or are you saying that immigrants are given immunity from criminal laws in their new homes? I still don't really know what either of you are talking about. I need more details and specifics.

    You don't know that these people who've immigrated to Europe are unable to integrate. I'm sure you think so, but you don't know so. Not unless Europe decides to not bother trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Neocon jingoists didn't go after Islam, they want after governments that ed with petrodollar. Like I said, if Bush and Cheney just din't like Islam, Saudi Arabia would have had freedom imported to it just like Iraq did.
    I'm talking about Islamic definition of the word, which is anyone who isn't a follower of Abrahamic religion.
    Sorry, but me being killed under religious laws is quite rational reason to not like Islam.
    Okay, my analogy is going over your head. I'll just say it outright. I'm skeptical of your understanding of Islamic theology. You haven't said anything more informative than the barebones right-wing political talking point that warmongers and people who casually throw out anti-Middle Eastern racial slurs have parroted on the internet since 9/11. You've said that the Qur'an teaches this or that, but after over 120 posts no one has even bothered to quote it once, much less analyze it. If you actually are well-versed, then you certainly hid it masterfully, and it's really lowering the quality of discussion so far.

    Do you understand me now?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This thread seems to have turned into an orgy of Islamophobia with highly bigoted and ignorant arguments flying all around.
    Do you think that anti-Muslimism is mainly rooted in general forms of discrimination, like xenophobia or racism, or is it a more specific phenomenon, like Orientalism? I haven't fully made up my mind yet.
    Being a little bit more kind and nuanced on the internet can go a long way.
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  13. #133

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    Do you think that anti-Muslimism is mainly rooted in general forms of discrimination, like xenophobia or racism, or is it a more specific phenomenon, like Orientalism? I haven't fully made up my mind yet.
    Most human insecurities are quite simple phenomenon. They are largely rooted in fragility of self-worth. If it wasn't about Muslims it would be about someone else.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; September 21, 2020 at 03:12 PM.
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  14. #134
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    36.48% to be exact, based on the PEW polls. Given most of those live in very poor countries with very little socio-economic support in their life you're highly unlikely to even meet a single Muslim in your own country or most places you can travel.
    I would appreciate a link to those polls.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Vast majority of Muslims in any European country never had anything to do with FGM. So, yeah, vast majority of them left it behind or they were opposing it to begin with.
    "oh, but not all of them" dude, 100k+ cases just in the UK...

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about you. You can't make anyone abandon their faith. But you can choose how you treat other people.
    Really? So I should change because some third world migrants dont want to? Yeah sure lol, how about a hard no.
    #wheninrome

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    I think the sentiment you've chosen to express towards Muslims, that it's rational to hate them and never condemning Darren Osborne when given the opportunity, is the most hypocritical stance taken in this thread so far. The rationale you have expressed is no better than the rationale you accuse Muslims of having.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    Even if the 10% number is true, which I doubt, it means that terrorism isn't unique to Muslims. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. My argument so far is that there are plenty of reasons, other than being Muslim, that caused Muslims terrorists to be terrorists. Acting like religion is the one and only cause is over-simplistic.

    Female genital mutilation has been done for a long time, but is becoming less common all over the world. It was done in Egypt six centuries before Muhammad was born. Non-Muslim doctors in the U.S. used it to treat fake diseases like female hysteria as late as the 1960s. It is objectively not unique to Muslims.
    Yeah and they are objectively overrepresented at an obscene level, what does it change or why would it matter that it isn't fully 100% unique to them or it wasnt them who invented it when they are the ones who still practice it here and today?
    What are you even talking about, seriously wtf

  15. #135

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I would appreciate a link to those polls.
    A simple Google search can show you the poll by PEW as I have already referenced. Its ironic that you ask for a link when you never bothered to provide any link, not even a reference, for any number you cooked up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    "oh, but not all of them" dude, 100k+ cases just in the UK...
    With over 3 million Muslims in UK thats a pretty low number if you wanna attribute it to Muslims.
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  16. #136
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    When someone straps a bomb to themselves with the purpose of killing as many as possible there are two aspects to that. One is obviously the killing and the other to incite fear and in that respect the bomber wins. The terrorist knows this, hence the name terrorist and so this is the policy of the Islamic extremists, why? Because to get a poor religious entity across to a world that mostly is not interested fear is its greatest weapon and this has been Islam since its inception. Of course not all Muslims are terrorists but not all are unafraid to come right out and condemn what these preachers of hate are saying in their mosques. The fear factor works on them just as it does on anyone else and the Mullahs know this. So when accused of Islamophobia the very same can be said of probably the majoriity of Muslims. After all the poor beggars were most likely born into the situation where fear is a normal way of life to them.

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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    A simple Google search can show you the poll by PEW as I have already referenced. Its ironic that you ask for a link when you never bothered to provide any link, not even a reference, for any number you cooked up.
    First I was thinking about 80% but thats Egypt, then I thought 40% is the number but now Im kind of sure thats the muslim illiteracy rate so I tried to look it up but I couldnt find those polls, weird I know, almost if like Google doesnt really like it when you search for this kind of numbers. Anyways my guess was close enough but I like to be more precise. Im glad that you found those polls. So, are you willing to share them or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    With over 3 million Muslims in UK thats a pretty low number if you wanna attribute it to Muslims.
    I dont see 100k+ mutilations of young girls as a low number, I see it as an unacceptable/intolerable number.

  18. #138

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    First I was thinking about 80% but thats Egypt, then I thought 40% is the number but now Im kind of sure thats the muslim illiteracy rate so I tried to look it up but I couldnt find those polls, weird I know, almost if like Google doesnt really like it when you search for this kind of numbers. Anyways my guess was close enough but I like to be more precise. Im glad that you found those polls. So, are you willing to share them or what?
    Google isn't really hiding anything. It's quite easy to find such a poll. I love how you connect it to illiteracy though. You do it to belittle Muslims in general but you're actually shooting your position in the head. Percentage of people who say that apostasy from Islam should be met with death is roughly the same as the illiteracy rate. The less people read, including the Quran itself, the more they adhere to extremist beliefs like this. The same is likely true for Christian countries.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I dont see 100k+ mutilations of young girls as a low number, I see it as an unacceptable/intolerable number.
    That doesn't really address how you use that number though. I find the number of Catholic priests molesting kids an unacceptable number as well but I do not pass judgment on all Christians or even all priests or Catholic priests.
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  19. #139
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    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Google isn't really hiding anything. It's quite easy to find such a poll. I love how you connect it to illiteracy though. You do it to belittle Muslims in general but you're actually shooting your position in the head. Percentage of people who say that apostasy from Islam should be met with death is roughly the same as the illiteracy rate. The less people read, including the Quran itself, the more they adhere to extremist beliefs like this. The same is likely true for Christian countries.
    Its ironic that you are now the one who dont provide the link, I cant help but to assume that either that link doesnt exist or more likely you are just too afraid to link the data because you know how horrific the numbers are.

    I found this BBC data about muslims in the UK and it says 36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, how about that. According to you, these UK muslims are also illiterate, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That doesn't really address how you use that number though. I find the number of Catholic priests molesting kids an unacceptable number as well but I do not pass judgment on all Christians or even all priests or Catholic priests.
    I blame the Catholic Church for that, see how easy this is?
    Also the child molesting priests are a local European problem while the muslim grooming-gangs, fgm, forced child marriages etc are unnecessary and totally preventable imported problems.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Islamophobia in the West

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Its ironic that you are now the one who dont provide the link, I cant help but to assume that either that link doesnt exist or more likely you are just too afraid to link the data because you know how horrific the numbers are.

    I found this BBC data about muslims in the UK and it says 36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, how about that. According to you, these UK muslims are also illiterate, right?
    Well, I've already provided a reference for you to easily find this poll I was talking about. This very same poll have been subject of debates on these forums that you have been part of quite many times. They're one of the most popular polls that are used in discussions. You can easily find it with a simple Google search. It's the first result using the 4 basic search terms that you need. I already gave you the number. 36%.

    You can find the actual study you vaguely reference here. Overall, back in 2007, 31% of those that were polled agreed that apostasy is punishable by death. 57% disagreed. The illiteracy point was your idea. So, you, probably think that these UK Muslims are also illiterate. Nonetheless, literacy is merely one of the factor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I blame the Catholic Church for that, see how easy this is?
    Also the child molesting priests are a local European problem while the muslim grooming-gangs, fgm, forced child marriages etc are unnecessary and totally preventable imported problems.
    You blame the Catholic Church, which had a hand in covering up such crimes, but not Christians or even Catholic priests. You're basically choosing to apply double standards quite openly.
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